Talk:Neotraditional country

Flawed Description

In the article, Neotraditional country is described as "a country music style that rejects most elements of modern Top 40 country music". However, later in the article (when contrasting to Alternative country), it is noted that Neotraditional country is described as "merely adhere to a more "traditional" country music sound" as opposed to Alternative country which "reject mainstream country music completely".

This suggests that the differentiation between Alternative country and Neotraditional country lies (somewhat) in the extent to which they "reject mainstream country music". This is ambiguous, subjective and confusing....and should be revised.

I suggest the article be revised (or rewritten) to define Neotraditional country as a style of country music which simply embraces the 'traditional country sound' of the 40s and 50s with an emphasis on the instrumental background and 'traditional vocals' (perhaps)...and leave out the mention of Neotraditional country necessarily "rejecting mainstream country music" at all.

This revision could also serve to correct the suggestions of a "Flawed List" (below) because it takes the emphasis off of how 'mainstream' an artist is (to be considered Neotraditional country)....leaving that distinction for Alternative country, specifically. This should work unless someone can reference a artist who would be considered Neotraditional (according to my revised definition) AND NOT fit the Alternative country definition, while STILL "rejecting mainstream country music". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.66.36.224 (talk) 19:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

• • That above edit, was by me. ~Jroc83 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jroc83 (talk • contribs) 17:01, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Flawed List

I feel that the list of mainstream artists with a neotraditional sound or whatever is very flawed. Just because certain artists are slightly less pop-oriented than others while still fitting snugly in the Nashville sound doesn't make them really neotraditional

Of those listed, I feel that these need to be removed as soon as possible:

• Alan Jackson
• George Strait
• Tracy Byrd
• Mark Chesnutt
• Vince Gill
• Tracy Lawrence
• Craig Morgan
• Brad Paisley
• Travis Tritt
• Randy Travis
• Gary Allan
• Josh Turner

Not only do they have little in common with the traditional country musicians such as Hank Williams Sr, Ernest Tubb, etc. Of those listed here, the majority are or were at some time major contributors to the Nashville sound and country-pop. I feel that it is completely wrong to label them as neotraditional. As said earlier, just because an artist might be less poppy than another while still fitting securely in the Nashville sound does NOT make them neotraditional. That is about as dumb as saying that Green Day are traditional punk just because they have slightly more traditional punk than, say, Avril Lavigne has. There is a huge difference in being neotraditional and being less pop-oriented than others while still being pop-oriented, and those listed above fit into the latter category, perhaps less pop-oriented than others, but still pop-oriented. Gorovich 03:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

As a bit of a PS to my earlier post, many of those said above such as Randy Travis, George Strait and Clint Black are also the major driving force behind the Nashville sound's revival with the Urban Cowboy fad of the 80s. When compared to the others, their inclusion in the list is highly unwarranted, and any inclusion of them can be seen as vandalism in my opinion. Just as no one would list Rancid and the Exploited under a list of classical music composers due to their opposing genres, so too should the artists who were the initial driving force behind one opposing genre not be listed amongst those of a radically opposing style. Gorovich 03:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Neotraditional does not mean traditional; as a label, it was invented in the 80s specifically to refer to the sound of George Strait, Randy Travis, and Ricky Skaggs, as a step away from the urban cowboy movement that was associated with artists such as Mickey Gilley or Johnny Lee. While pop country was still strong in the 80s, "urban cowboy" itself pretty much died out before Randy Travis even came along, and definitely before Clint Black. Even assuming your general argumentation to be true, I don't understand your choice of artists. If you're holding "neotraditional" to the standard of Hank Williams and Ernest Tubb, none of the artists listed under mainstream fit the bill, with the possible exception of Ricky Skaggs. Chris LeDoux (who certainly had traditional themes in his music but had rock instrumentation), Daryle Singleterry, Ricky Van Shelton, Keith Whitley, and Lee Ann Womack ("I Hope You Dance") are all just as pop-sounding, if not more than George Strait and Alan Jackson. MikeND05 17:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Lists of artists

I'm not sure of defining Dwight Yoakam and Marty Stuart as alternative neotraditional performers; both have had relatively recent mainstream success (particularly Yoakam) and still seem quite welcome in the Nashville establishment, even if it's been a few years since they've charted singles. The individual articles of neither artist claim any association with the alternative country movement. I'm not saying that their music could not be identified as alt-country in many respects, just that if the article is setting up a dichotomy of "mainstream" versus "alternative," they fit just as well in the first category due to their mainstream commercial successes. MikeND05 06:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Not only that, but why is Dwight Yoakam "mainstream" and Dale Watson "alternative"? They both play in a style very much rooted in the Bakersfield tradition. Either artist sounds very much like they recorded their songs in the 1960's, although Yoakam tends to be more "Buck Owens" and Watson more "Merle Haggard." Granted, Yoakam has covered a number of rock songs ("Little Sister," "Suspicious Minds," "Crazy Little Thing Called Love") and even done a country-reggae song ("For Love's Sake"), so maybe that makes him "alternative." But Dale Watson? He's traditional country through and through, albeit the Bakersfield tradition not Nashville! (24.45.102.169 11:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC))

I think it's a matter of alt-country meaning so many different things. On one hand, it's a (very broad) separate sub-genre, but on the other hand it seems to represent a general anti-establishment attitude, which gets morphed into "The radio won't play his music, so he must be alternative." This distinction is obviously problematic. I think the best way to pare it down is probably to go by whether a person has had any mainstream success (i.e. a significant deal with a major record label) at any point in his career. This would be true of Yoakam, but not of Watson. Of course, you could just as easily go by attitude and lifestyle, in which case it would make no sense at all to list Watson in the same category as, say, Hank III. I personally think it would make more sense to have a much shorter list of the major examples, especially since most artists today have pretty varied influences. MikeND05 03:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)