Talk:Neilston

Neilston is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 2, 2008.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
December 23, 2007	Peer review	Reviewed
February 14, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed
March 6, 2008	Featured article candidate	Promoted

Current status: Featured article

UK geography Low‑importance

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Cities

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities articles

There is a request, submitted by User:Jza84, for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia.

The rationale behind the request is: "Recent FA, recently featured on the main page. A spoken version would add to the richness of the article.".

GA Review

The article is very well written with excellent prose, well cited, and mostly meets the manual of style and city guidelines. I believe it is mostly in compliance with the Good Article criteria, with one exception, completeness. The history section kind of leaves the reader hanging somewhere int he 1920s and 1930s, so there's about 70-80 years to fill in here. How did the city transition from a small farming community to a commuter town?

The governance section is overall good, but who's the chief executive of the city (mayor, city manager, etc)?

Not too much is said about the overall culture of the inhabitants. I would expect to see a culture section with information on this, as well as on annual cultural events & fairs, and other information. You could probably move the 'landmarks' section into 'culture' as a subsection, since they're generally cultural attractions.

What about local media? Is there a daily newspaper? Any radio or TV stations?

Infrastructure? Where is electricity generated? What is the town's water source? Healthcare institutions? Possibly move 'transport' into an 'infrastructure' section and add the missing information.

Other than this, the article looks very good. I think it can be promoted once the completeness issues are resolved. I'll put this on hold at WP:GAN until February 2, 2008, or until the issues are resolved. Dr. Cash (talk) 23:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay, I'm really struggling for Wiki-time at the moment!.... I think you raise valid points here. The problem I'm having is finding source material with which I can attribute the statements you request. The settlement is a small village rather than a major metropolis, and in this capacity there is little written about some of the more advanced features of Neilston. Simillarly, the village is a little banal.

I'd be disinclined to merge landmarks with culture at this stage or move transport to infrastructure, as this seems to be unpopular in the UK, and against the WP:UKCITIES recommendations. That said, I know Neilston has had pipers marches from time-to-time, but there's nothing online about this. I'll see if I can get hold of some material about this, though will struggle for the 2nd Feb. -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:20, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've addressed some issues this afternoon/evening (GMT!). I've elaborated on Electricty, water, sewerage and healthcare. I think I've also made clearer the various tiers of government for Neilston too. I'm still struggling for anything of notability for the history of Neilston post 1930. That said however, there are bites of info post-1930s in other sections, whilst this seems to be a permissable approach for Wormshill - a featured article. Again I would urge any editor to consider the size of the village - indeed it's population is little more than that of say Northern Cambria, Pennsylvania.

I'm struggling for a source about Neilston's local media. As far as I know, there are no papers or stations specific to Neilston, but I could be wrong. Most news is provided by the wider Glasgow publications. Any advice??

On a simillar note, I'm a regular edittor of WP:UKCITIES. If notes on health, water, and electricity are really desired to be included for the reading/editing community, may I recommend you raise this at the UKCITIES talk page? It's just that I edit it and make suggestions so regularly, I wouldn't like to be accused of breaches of WP:OWN (!). -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the delay in responding here. I've been very busy last week and had to go out of town for a few days due to a family issue. The way I see the article currently, it meets the GA criteria for an article on a small town or village, and is in compliance with WP:MOS and other guidelines. The only issue that remains is the history section, which still just stops in the 1930s and says nothing about the economic and social development of the population in the last 70-80 years, which is a significant chunk of time. Once this single issue is resolved, the article can be promoted (no need to take this to WP:GAR). Cheers! Dr. Cash (talk) 22:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent! And good to see you back!... I am really struggling to find source material about Neilston's most recent development. Joking aside, there hasn't really been much going on. Give me a short while and I'll see if I can squeeze blood from rock (info from the books I have!) and put something together. It is likely to be breif however. -- Jza84 · (talk) 22:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I think I've put something together. It's ambiguous and brief I know, but it's worded exactly as the citation states. -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article meets the GA criteria and will be listed. Congrats! (sorry for the delay). Dr. Cash (talk) 18:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No problem at all! Well worth the wait! Yippie!... Thank you for taking time out to review the article - it was much appreciated. -- Jza84 · (talk) 23:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FA nomination

Just a note that I've nominated this article for featured article status. The review is found Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Neilston. -- Jza84 · (talk) 00:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, as part of that I see the dailyrecord source about Fisher has gone dead. There is a cached version here. I will try to find another live source, but struggled then with a cursory google search! -- Jza84 · (talk) 01:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Today's featured article

I know this tends to bring large volumes of traffic and queries. For convenience, the featured version prior to TFA is here. --Jza84 | Talk 11:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It didn't come off too badly afterall ([1]) --Jza84 | Talk 00:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MSPs

I understand there are a lot of them but all of them are MSPs that represent Neilston I believe all them should be mentioned or none at all with just a link to the constituency/region. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 23:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems a little listy (as my summary suggested), according to my tastes and sensibilities at least! I think the county constituency MSP has as special distinction for the locality, wouldn't you agree? I mean it doesn't seem like best practice to repeat those MSPs across the several hundred place-articles to me. However, I think I've changed the list according to what you've said here (with a link to the electoral region). What do you think? --Jza84 | Talk 23:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"between Paisley and Glasgow"

That description, visible on the main page, is incorrect, as any glance at a map would demonstrate. "Near Paisley and Glasgow" would be better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.106.225.195 (talk) 07:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Place name in Gaelic

I see there has been some "discussion" about whether the place name should also be given in Gaelic. This has been discused more generally, for example at [2]. It seems to me that if Neilston was ever called Baile Nèill and that this was subsequently anglicised, to put the Gaelic is appropriate. If however the name has "always" been Neilston and it is merely that this can be translated into Gaelic as Baile Nèill, then this information is not appropriate to the article. I'm amused at the thought of Coldstream being called an t-Alltan Fuar but, looking at its article now, I see that some thoughtful person has instead translated the name into Scots where it is, let me get this right, Coldstream. Thincat (talk) 10:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name was always "Neilston". The addition of a Gaelic name is just a transliteration of the elements. It's like saying New York's name in French is "Nouveau York". I'm from the locality and Gaelic is not used here. --Jza84 | Talk 11:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is what I had supposed. I was away to remove the Gaelic but I see you have done this already. Good. Thincat (talk) 11:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

according to List_of_Scottish_Gaelic_speakers_by_scottish_council_areas Gaelic is spoken in East Renfrewshire by 590 speakers. If Gaelic is a coofficial language of East Renfrewshire then it is certainly in its place to have the Gaelic name as well as the english one.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name of Neilston in Gaelic is "Neilston", like the name of New York in Gaelic is "New York". Do you have citation as to what Neilston's name is in Gaelic? --Jza84 | Talk 11:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I doubt that all the English place names given cite sources but the Gaelic form was researched by Iain Mac an Tàilleir by the Scottish Place Name Society. You can find a reference on the searchable database at the Gaelic college's website http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/faclair/sbg/lorg.php if you search for Neilston and select Faic Tùsan (View Sources). And frankly, this "Gaelic isn't spoken here" argument is as tired and spurious as it was the first time someone used it on Wiki. The dodo doesn't exist anymore either, but I can't hear anyone shouting to delete the article. Akerbeltz 12:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)][reply]

PS: And New York is Nua Eabhrac in Gaelic and has been for more than half a century.

I did not say "wasn't spoken here" I said "it is not used here", by which I mean a Gaelic name does not appear on border markers (like other settlements) nor is it used in official documents. The Gaelic name you believe is right is purely conjectural. --Jza84 | Talk 12:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh puleeze, by that argument I presume you're going to delete the Gaelic place name from hundreds of other place names in the area too? Starting with Glasgow, the Clyde and Renfrew, because the same "logic" applies to them too. And could you then please explain why the Infobox contains a cell for Gaelic and Scots place names for the whole of Scotland? Akerbeltz 13:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)][reply]

Because, I helped roll out the infobox, and took part in the discussion that it should be added for where such a name verifiably exists! It's not an anti-Gaelic thing (as I think you might have interpretted this), it's just that I was brought up in Neilston and never once heard or read its name in Gaelic. Urdu is spoken in East Renfrewshire, but we don't invent Urdu names for Neilston. I think you're transliterating the name anachronistically and theoretically rather than add a genuine bi-lingual name. --Jza84 | Talk 12:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you ever noticed every person with an attitude towards Gaelic always uses the mantra "I have nothing against Gaelic but..."? So in other words, you're elevating yourself over the Scottish Place Name Society expertise? Because I did not make this name up, it's in their materials. This place has been around since the 12th century, if anything, the English/Scots name is made up, not the Gaelic or have you forgotten that Gaelic was spoken down there too and is the source of most old place names in the area? The Urdu argument is just as tired, Gaelic is an indigenous language, Urdu an (im)migrant language. Akerbeltz 14:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)][reply]

I believe Akerbeltz has presented sufficient sources to show that Neilston has an officially recognized name in Gaelic - whether all locals know of this name is irrelevant, it is enough that a reliable source states that it exists. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 13:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But that source states that "Baile" means "town". The article itself (via citation) states that it had never been determined if "ton" implies the English "town" or "stone"; a reason in itself why this transliteration is purely conjectural. --Jza84 | Talk 15:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether it is conjectural or not is beside the point: We have to accept thew sources not your gut feeling as a proud Neilstonian.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 15:21, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A college website does not trump consensus or commonsense. Simillarly if it is conjectural then that is exactly the point: original research and tertiary sources are not reliable. Can you please explain why "town" gets preference over "stone" and what evidence that site has that the former takes preference? --Jza84 | Talk 15:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent)You are confusing several arguments. A good reason to include the Gaelic name is 1. if the name is one of the official names of the town. 2. if it is a name with some recognized status in one of the official languages of that area. Whether or not the name is a direct translation of the English name or vice versa is irrelevant. I do think that the website of a Gaelic language college is a reliable enough source to trump the common sense of any non Gaelic speakers on questions about the Gaelic language - and consensus we are just trying to build here. Therefore I believe that Akerbeltz has sufficiently demonstrated that Baile Nèill is a recognized Gaelic name for Neilston, and that Neilston is located in an area in which Gaelic has been spoken historically and presently - whereas you have only presented contradictions based on your personal opinion and an apparent aversion against seeing non English languages mentioned in connection to your home town. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 16:01, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The college database simply is the outlet, they did not research this material. Dr Taylor is, amongst other things, the authority who provides the Scottish Parliament/Government with lists of the official Gaelic forms of Scottish place names. Their sources are second to none, if you ever care to call in the their HQ in Edinburgh. Why does Gaelic prefer Baile to Clachan here? I don't know, I didn't research the name, I just added the info :b Why oh why do we have to keep having this argument over Gaelic place names on Scottish pages... I have never come across this problem on any of the Welsh, Manx or Cornish pages. Even pages about places in Northern Ireland cite the Irish forms. Why is it only certain people feeling possessive about Scottish articles who have to come up with this thing all the time? Akerbeltz 16:52, 2 April 2008 (UTC)][reply]

Guys, let's cool the tone down a little here eh? Again, Akerbeltz, I have no problem with the addition of appropriate national-language names. Infact, I try to facilitate their inclusion. I don't feel possessive at all; I feel cautious, perhaps, about adding a transliteration that appears dubious. I wrote the greater part of this article, I think that's fair to say. What you perhaps haven't considered is that I own every book that has been published about Neilston, even one that is about a former church minister. Not one of these mentions a Gaelic translation; that includes contemporary and archaic sources; that includes gazetteers, directories, local history books, parish records. Why is that? I suspect it's because there is no Gaelic-specific name. If you look at the primary evidence, the village is named, invariably, "Neilston" or "Neilstoun". That's one side of the issue here. Second, as mentioned, is the issue of "town" vs "stone". The article mentions a dispute, and I'm not comfortable in allying with a particularly stance. This isn't about "gut feeling" or being a "proud Neilstonian" (I am infact an Oldhamer), it's about looking at the evidence and presenting things fairly. --Jza84 | Talk 16:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm cool if a little sad. If the authenticity of any place name source from that area is to be called into question, then it is actually the later Scots/English versions that have to be critically examined. I'm sure you own a lot of books about Neilston but probably none about the history of Gaelic. Otherwise you'd be aware of the fact that Gaelic was spoken throughout Strathclyde until the 12/13th century. It was around for a lot longer than most people know and covered a much greater area than most people are aware of. It only died in Galloway for example in the 15th century. So when it comes to authenticity, Scots has very little over Gaelic in terms of place names. And, if THE authority on Gaelic place names in Scotland then tells us that Baile Nèill is the name for Neilston, then that is more than likely to be true and authentic. He is not given to conjuring up place names. If anything, the "stone" etymology looks fishy to me; -tūn is a well known element, but I've never come across "stone" as the secondary element in an English place name. Either way, the fact that people can't agree on the derivation of the Scots name doesn't have any bearing on the fact that the man who provides the "official" Gaelic names says it's Baile Nèill in Gaelic.

PS: as far as no one in the area speaking Gaelic or using the place name, I did a quick search and it would appear that Baile Nèill was happy enough to hold the cèilidh of the Clann Gàidhlig organisation (http://www.clanngaidhlig.org/gaidhlig/events.asp - look in the Càite column). So now we have reliable sourcer AND popular usage? Time to relent I think. Akerbeltz 18:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)][reply]

(EC) I already know Gaelic was spoken in the region!!! I know the Celtic history! Strathclyde was occupied by the ancient Damonii and Cumbrians before, during and after the Romans! Scots/English was brought to the region by Scoto-Normans. I know all this. Don't assume this is an ignorance to Scottish Gaelic, because, it is not. I have family in Tarbert and have been lucky enough to visit it. In that article (which I've been expanding) the Gaelic name (as used in 1. Local history books, 2. the village boundary markers 3. websites 4. Gazetteer of Scotland) is presented, and rightfully so. There, that village has a publisised bi-lingual name. I don't think there is an "official" or "THE" source on Gaelic names, but I think one has to look at the evidence. I actually agree that "-tun/-ton" is a well established/documented suffix but I just quoted the source material. --Jza84 | Talk 17:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC) P.S. isn't Clachan Lallans?...[reply]

Regarding www.clanngaidhlig.org/, I concede. That's a fair third party source (and sponsored, it seems, by the local authority) and so I have been convinced that it should now be restored. :) --Jza84 | Talk 17:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The logic here escapes me a little but let's leave it at that :) Clachan may be used in Scots/Lallans but it's a clear loan from Gaelic. Clachan derives from clach 'stone' + -an, a diminutive suffix. It ultimately derives from Old Irish clochán, a reference to the old monastic stone cells, so technically a "monastic settlement" originally. Similar in derivation to all the Cill place names (cill < Lat. cella, which in the day of the Gael meant a hermit's cell and latterly church). Akerbeltz 18:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)][reply]

My knowledge of the Gaelic language (as it is today) is weak I freely admit! I just recognised the word Clachan as Scots, I wasn't challenging it! --Jza84 | Talk 17:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hadn't noticed that the article was on the front page! Now I better understand your protective attitude - I only realised it was a frontpage article because of the apparently huge amount of vandalism to the article. I am happy that you turned towards a less dismissive attitude and began to consider the sources presented, it takes guts to change stances like that. I also apologize for any false assumptions I may have made or any excessively strong language I may have used. Glad to see the issue solved.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 19:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No problem at all. Between fighting off perhaps a thousand people who wish to declare on the article that someone they know is gay (eg here) amongst other things I've seen, I'm glad to have found a way forwards on the talk page for an addition to the Neilston page. :) --Jza84 | Talk 19:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IPA for the Gaelic place name - b with a superscript circle?

I looked in the IPA articles and the Scottish Gaelic article, and could find no reference to an IPA b (or any other consonant) with a superscript circle. Does anyone know where one can find out about this b, which is given in the IPA for the Scottish Gaelic place name of this town? Thanks! Dveej (talk) 23:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe User:Akerbeltz added this. You might want to take this enquiry to him directly. I imagine I'm the only user watching this page, and I myself cannot help sorry. --Jza84 | Talk 23:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The IPA circle denoting a devoiced sound can be placed above or below a symbol. It's usually placed above for Gaelic because it would clash with the dental symbol otherwise which has to be placed below. Akerbeltz 01:29, 5 April 2008 (GMT)]

Amending to conform with consensus IPA for Gaelic Akerbeltz (talk) 10:20, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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1910 Strike

If this wasn't an FA then I would try and slot in

"The cotton-thread workers of Neilston struck on 25 May 1910 and Kate McLean and Esther Dick quickly signed up the strikers into the National Federation of Women Workers. The strike grew as the employers were unwilling to talk to the NFWW and by June it was a lock out with hundreds of new (striking) NFWW members. The strike was important as it was the first time that the workers had moved away from paternalistic employers towards a union to support them."^[1]

Suggestions? Victuallers (talk) 14:18, 6 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "The Strike in Irish and Scottish History" (PDF). JOURNAL OF IRISH AND SCOTTISH STUDIES. 8 issue 2: 36-. Spring 2015 – via Aberdeen University.

[:1-1] "The Strike in Irish and Scottish History" (PDF). JOURNAL OF IRISH AND SCOTTISH STUDIES. 8 issue 2: 36-. Spring 2015 – via Aberdeen University.

[1]