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Feb 2018

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@Saladin1987: Regarding your edits and points raised :

  • Youtube is not used as source - Youtube videos can be used as both Primary and Secondary sources if from a Verifiable and Established source. In this case it is India Today. Check Wikipedia:Reliable source examples#Are IRC, Myspace, Facebook, and YouTube reliable sources? which clearly mentions ->
YouTube: YouTube and other video-sharing sites are generally not considered reliable sources because anyone can create or manipulate a video clip and upload without editorial oversight, just as with a self-published website. However, official channels of notable organisations, such as Monty Python's channel, may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed, or as a secondary source if they can be trace to a reliable publisher. Videos may also be used as a convenience link for material originally published elsewhere. In all cases, care should be undertaken to ensure that the video is genuinely authorised by the copyright holder. Be careful not to link to material that is a copyright violation. In general, unless the video is clearly marked as "official" with a name strongly identified with the notable publisher or source, best practice is to treat it as a copyright violation and not use it.
Me and @Cyphoidbomb: had a similar discussion in Talk:Salim–Sulaiman
  • delhi kayasthas are punjabi kayasthas - That's WP:OR. Non of the sources mention any specific community "Punjabi" with "Kayastha". Most of the time the sources say Kayastha from Delhi.

Even your Hindustan times source doesn't say Punjabi Kayastha 

Neil Nitin Mukesh said, “It is brilliant to see the family getting together. I’d like to call the big fat family get together rather than the big fat Punjabi family. It all just feels like a family holiday.”
Kind of ambiguous, but it seems neither he wants to call the family get together Punjabi and nor there is any explicit mention of Neil Nitin Mukesh's ethnicity anywhere in the source. Moreover big fat Punjabi family might well mean anything from his fiancé's family to a metaphor altogether. I believe a better explicit source is needed to not move in the Original Search territory.


Will it be better to frame the sentence as "... in a Hindu family of Kayastha, Gujarati and Punjabi origins..." for now? Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Fylindfotberserk: Random thought: I'm pretty sure that the community at WT:IN prefers that caste labels for living people come from self-identification. Some people, like Amitabh Bachchan have rejected being labeled as part of a caste, and trying to derive caste based on surnames constitutes original research. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:46, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyphoidbomb: I get it. Now in the India Today Youtube Video, Nitin Mukesh has explicitly said that his father, singer Mukesh was a Kayastha from Delhi and mother was a Gujarati Brahmin. I believe there should not be an issue to add Kayastha and Gujarati in the sentence, but definitely not "Punjabi Kayastha" together. I am doubtful of the HT link :"I’d like to call the big fat family get together rather than the big fat Punjabi family." doesn't seem like a self identification .. I believe we can remove the Punjabi part. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:41, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well delhi is home to majority Punjabis, Also why would news reporter report him as a Punjabi if he was not one. Although i agree, majority of Hindus dont brag about their castes and i think we can write kayastha or Gujarati and Punjabi origin or we can just mention kayastha and mention punjabi people and gujarati people in the category. Also there are severa sources which mention kayastha but kayastha are bengali, punjabi and gujarati all of whom are completely different to each other. We can have kayastha family in the early life and add both punjabi people and gujarati people in category . What do you say — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saladin1987 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the Indian Today video, his father Nitin Mukesh mentions "Kayastha from Delhi" for his father and "Gujarati Brahmin" for his mother explicitly. No mention of Punjabi was there. Mentioning Punjabi Kayastha in the article would be original search. A Kayastha from Delhi can have ancestry from Uttar Pradesh, Haryana, Rajasthan for being close to Delhi. By my personal experience, most "Mathurs" I've met or known are from Uttar Pradesh.
  • You said Also why would news reporter report him as a Punjabi if he was not one -
1)Because Bollywood Life is a Gossip Site. They can write anything. [3] can't be used as a Reliable source as per WP:ICTF#Guidelines on sources and WP:ICTFFAQ. Not only that, it clearly comes under "News Gossip". See User talk:Cyphoidbomb#A cupcake for you!
2)HindustanTimes is a reliable source, but as Cyphoid has said
"I'm pretty sure that the community at WT:IN prefers that caste labels for living people come from self-identification. Some people, like Amitabh Bachchan have rejected being labeled as part of a caste, and trying to derive caste based on surnames constitutes original research."

Neil Nitin Mukesh didn't explicitly say anything like "I am a Punjabi" like for example in Sanjay Leela Bhansali article's source [4] where Mr. Bhansali has said he's Gujarati clearly. As well as the fact that the word "Punjabi" in HT source is rather ambiguous as explained in my last post. We need to find a a better source which similar to Bhansali's one. I am removing Punjabi because of ambiguity and unreliability. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:38, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The subjects food habits and interest in Gujarati folk dance

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Copying discussion from User talk:Fylindfotberserk

Neil Nitin mukesh

Why does editor seem insistent of making him appear Gujarati despite him being only Gujarati from his grandmother's side? And how is an article from 2009 stating what he eats has any relevance to his ethnicity? UserGK23 (talk) 12:52, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

That is sourced. No reason to change it if the subject says so. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

https://m.timesofindia.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news/I-stripped-completely-Neil/articleshow/5065194.cms — Preceding unsigned comment added by UserGK23 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 4 July 2019 (UTC) The article seems to give more weight to his gujarati side and making him appear gujarati. Furthermore, this line "He follows a mostly Gujarati lifestyle at home, and eats Gujarati food such as vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi for lunch and dinner and frequently attends dandia-raas." is based off the views of the author Tanvi Trivedi and not Neil.

This line is apparently a quote from Neil "My grandmother was a Gujarati. So lunch and dinner at home comprise vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi. I never miss the dandia-raas back in Mumbai,��� he says." He just mentioned that his grandmother is Gujarati not that he follows a "Gujarati lifestyle" and does one's eating habits making him ethnically follow a certain lifestyle which is exclusive to a particular ethnicity?

"Actor Neil Nitin Mukesh almost follows a Gujarati lifestyle at home (his father being a half Gujarati)." This is a quote from author Tanvi Trivedi and not Neil. Not to mention the article is from 2009. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UserGK23 (talk • contribs) 14:31, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@UserGK23: I've moved that specific part to "Personal life" section since these are his personal choices. Removed assertion by article that he follows a Gujarati lifestyle as well. My personal thought, it doesn;t matter whether a person be Mathur or Gujarati or anything. If a person wishes to follow certain culture, he/she can do it irrespective of linguistic background. I believe most of Indian-Americans are very much Western culturally. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Again, how is what he eats relevant to his personal life in any way? Especially when it's an article about what he eats from 2009 - that is ten years ago. I'm sure there are celebs who eat all kinds of food - Italian, Chinese, Indian etc... It is not relevant to any section of the article. I eat KFC and McDonald's since i was a child. Does that make me american? And is it necessary to be mentioned in my biography that I eat American food? — Preceding unsigned comment added by UserGK23 (talk • contribs) 14:52, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

@UserGK23: It is relevant if the person openly flaunts it. It is a long standing content so it can't be deleted right away. If a person chooses to each a special variety of food and enjoys special variety of dance form and is open about it, who are we to remove judge that. What you are saying is your own POV. It can stay in the article. Secondly, if you get famous someday to have a Wiki article can you say you like Chinese food in a reliable news outlet, that can be added - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Can you cite some Wikipedia policies on biographies of living persons which back up your claims?

"It is a long standing content" - what is a long standing content? When was it added and if long standing content is irrelevant or incorrect then should it remain in the article? How long does something have to have remained on the site for it to be considered long standing content? This raises many questions.

No one is judging anyone for liking any particular kind of food or dance. I just don't think it is relevant to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UserGK23 (talk • contribs) 15:14, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

This is a sourced content and it stays. You are obviously trying to force your point of view here. See WP:NPOV. A subject wants to eat certain food and enjoys certain culture and he has admitted it in the media. It stays. If you have problem discuss it in the article talk page. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:19, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Please don't make assumptions about me. About Point of View, it seems to be the opposite. Your edit states "Neil eats Gujarati food such as vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi for lunch and dinner and frequently attends dandia-raas." This seems more like your point of view. Meanwhile, nowhere in the article does it say this. Nowhere is it mentioned that he eats Gujarati food, directly quoted from Neil.

These are all the apparent quotes from Neil in the article "My grandmother was a Gujarati. So lunch and dinner at home comprise vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi. I never miss the dandia-raas back in Mumbai,"

"I don't know how the pictures got out so soon," says a surprised Neil. "Initially, I was apprehensive about doing the scene because it could cause embarrassment for my parents. It is only after I got a tacit approval from my parents that I went ahead."

"Yes, I stripped completely for the film,"

"My obsession for my car and bike goes beyond a limit is known to all. I myself wash my car. I am quite possessive about it and treat it like my girlfriend."

"The authorities at the NY airport weren't convinced that I am an Indian. They told I didn't look like one nor did I have an Indian name. But I think this is a standard procedure that they follow. Yes, it was a harrowing experience. But one need not make an issue out of this situation."

"Bipasha Basu and Katrina Kaif are great friends, but I guess my heart is already given"

"One's legs need to be strong. So I believe cycling does a great job for me,"

"I think my eyes are very expressive. I leave the rest for the audience to judge."

The rest of the article is a point of view from Tanvi Trivedi, the author of the article and not "Neil". Your edits do not match the quotes in the article.

And we can't take everything written in a news article as 100% fact. Times of India itself has faced defamation charges in the past. www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/defamation-case-against-times-of-india/article3743062.ece/amp/

These articles are written by journalists from their own point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UserGK23 (talk • contribs) 15:40, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

I've edited the article from Neil's point of view. He himself says he eats Gujarati food and never misses Dandya. Self identification like that is enough to be mentioned in Wikipedia without any repercussion not to mention there is nothing defamatory about this. Nothing more from the article or POV of the author is mentioned. You are coming across as anti-anything to do with Gujarat. You cannot dictate what Mr. Neil Nilin Mukesh likes or wants in life. Bye enough of your POV - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:47, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Again, do not make assumptions about me and stick to the topic, please. You are the only user who seems to have a problem with this so I must discuss this with you until we reach a consensus because if I do try to make any edits then you just revert them. Are you a moderator or administrator? Can you explain to me your position on this site? Do you only get to decide what stays and doesn't stay on the articles?

You made many claims and refused to back them up with Wikipedia policies. In fact, the article of NPOV you cited clearly states, "Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc. For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil.""

I also never said there was anything defamatory about the article. I was simply citing an example. Times of India is not some unquestionable source and the articles express the opinions of their journalists not of the public figures.

Nowhere in the article does it state that he eats Gujarati food and even if it did, it is irrelevant. You also failed to address your claims of it being "long standing content". You have failed to address my concerns and just made assumptions about me and hurled accusations. If you refuse to have a discussion on these issues and just revert every edit I make on this article then we must get a decision from someone higher up in the hierarchy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UserGK23 (talk • contribs) 15:59, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

You are just wasting my time. How many times I've to tell you that the content is not an opinion piece by somebody else. It is something told by the subject of the article himself. He clearly says that "My grandmother was a Gujarati. So lunch and dinner at home comprise vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi. I never miss the dandia-raas back in Mumbai". Vatanu shaak, Rotli are Gujarati dishes and Dandiya is a Gujarati folk dance. The food part can be reworded. And assumptions about you were based on the very first post you made to my talk. "Why does editor seem insistent of making him appear Gujarati despite him being only Gujarati from his grandmother's side?" makes it clear. When the article only mentioned what he does routinely. As for "Hobbies and Interests", see Erik Bana article which is a featured one. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:29, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

How is that relevant to his personal life? And whatever Times of India publishes is the universal truth or absolute word of God? Where is the proof that Neil himself has said it? There is no credence to that except for the article written by Tanvi Trivedi, which states that Neil said it.

What authority do you have to block someone for their edits? You are not an administrator and you seem to be twisting my posts to hurl accusations at me to undermine my statements. Please do not abuse your powers. If we can't reach consensus here then contact an administrator or someone higher up and let them handle the situation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by UserGK23 (talk • contribs) 17:41, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

This is how Wikipedia content is sourced when it comes to self-identification. What is the proof that Neil Nitin Mukesh is going to act in Saaho you might ask since no link in that article has Neil giving an interview about that. I already told you to open a discussion at article talk page which you didn't and wasting my time. I told you about my own views on that. Secondly, you can very well get blocked because you seem to be edit warring without discussing it in the talk page. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
According to User:UserGK23's POV as shown by his/her recent edits here and here, the subject's Gujarati food habits and penchant for Gujarati dance form Dandiya Raas should not be mentioned. My point is, a long standing content needs proper discussion here in the article's talkpage rather than mine (copied above). Secondly, since the subject himself is open about his lifestyle "My grandmother was a Gujarati. So lunch and dinner at home comprise vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi. I never miss the dandia-raas back in Mumbai" in a reliable source [5], I believe there is no harm keeping it. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC) Pinging Cyphoidbomb for suggestions. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:10, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think a person's food habits is relevant to their "Personal Life". Fylindfotberserk gave an example of Eric Bana's article which states his hobbies and interests but none of them mention his food habits.

This article discussing his food habits is also from a decade ago. As per Wikipedia's policy on Biographies of Living Persons - "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information" and this content seems to serve no purpose other than to make the subject appear more "Gujarati". UserGK23 (talk) 13:46, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Lets ask a few more people. Pinging @Cyphoidbomb:, @Krimuk2.0:, @Atlantic306:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:55, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
UserGK23 Please don't allege that the article likes to make him look Gujarati. That's your POV since Neil Nitin Mukesh quoted what he eats and what he enjoys. This isn't misleading since it was issued form TOI. Pont whether we can get to a consensus regarding this. Other similar BLP articles will also be affected by this consensus. Let people come and give their opinion. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:02, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I'm not clear on what specifically is the dispute, since the diffs linked above appear to focus on the order of Mathur and Gujarati. I don't see any legitimate rationale for flipping Mathur and Gujarati. It seems like run-of-the-mill ethnic-warring nonsense and/or patriarchial bias. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:27, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyphoidbomb: Check this edit. It seems you didn't notice that the content "He follows a mostly Gujarati lifestyle at home, and eats Gujarati food such as vatanu shaak, rotli, daal and kadhi for lunch and dinner and frequently attends dandia-raas." had been removed which is a bigger dispute here. According to the other user, it is "misleading" and a ploy "to make the subject appear more Gujarati" about which we already had an extensive discussion at my talkpage (copied above in the Collapse Box). However, Neil Nitin Mukesh's food habits and love of Dandia is declared by himself as per this source : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news/I-stripped-completely-Neil/articleshow/5065194.cms.
As far as "run-of-the-mill ethnic-warring nonsense and/or patriarchial bias" is concerned, it has always been a problem in this article ever since contents about the subject's paternal heritage had been added. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:47, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Recent removal

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@Bradv: Hi, regarding this removal, the caste is not contested, rather it is the order in which the castes are written in the article, with which the IP has problems. The video source comes from a reliable news agency India Today and the person'e father self-identifies the castes (in that particular order), which is an important policy for Indian BLP articles as per WP:INB. Note that article faced similar POV push to remove/downplay the person's Gujarati ancestry in the past by sock master User:Karkanistan and their sock User:UserGK23 as evident in the talk page discussion Talk:Neil Nitin_Mukesh#The subjects food habits and interest in Gujarati folk dance.

Also note Cyphoidbomb's comment above. his exact words I'm not clear on what specifically is the dispute, since the diffs linked above appear to focus on the order of Mathur and Gujarati. I don't see any legitimate rationale for flipping Mathur and Gujarati. It seems like run-of-the-mill ethnic-warring nonsense and/or patriarchial bias. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:27, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fylindfotberserk, per WP:BLPRS, contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. Once there is consensus among the editors here that the information is relevant and properly sourced, and there's an agreed-upon wording, it can be added back in. You can use {{fper}} to make that request, or just ping me and I can do it. – bradv🍁 14:34, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Bradv: It was not "contentious" until that IP started its disruptive POV pushing today. The thing already got consensus above. I'll ask the people involved again. Pinging @Cyphoidbomb, Sitush, Krimuk2.0, and Atlantic306: for discussion. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 14:39, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly this user is also a sock. One of the things they did, just like the IP was to change the order of ethnicities/castes "Mathur" and "Gujarati Shrimali Brahmin", with edit summaries that reflected patriarchal bias [6]. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:06, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm of the opinion that the longstanding order prior to the recent changes should be maintained. In a case where a person describes themselves as 50% A and 50% B, the order doesn't matter one iota to me, and is ultimately arbitrary (provided that we didn't insert our own personal bias...) But arbitrary changes, or perhaps I should say changes that seem arbitrary, are disruptive. There's a reason known only to this new editor for why a new order is superior, otherwise they wouldn't have made the change. And that sort of thing seems likely to be related to the culture/ethnic/caste/gender/misc.-warring that plagues Indian articles. Whether it's someone pushing Telugu before Tamil or flipping Mammootty and Mohanlal, these sorts of arbitrary changes just irritate the community and should be disallowed once an article has become stable and people are actively trying to maintain a consistent level of quality. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyphoidbomb: Yup, the content should be restored as per WP:STATUSQUO. This user under their various avatars have disrupted the article time to time. Also I was gonna mention WP:NOYT according to which: YouTube official channels of notable organisations can be used as sources. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:28, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree with the YouTube sentiment. YouTube isn't a source, it's a broadcasting mechanism. If the entity that produced the video is verified and otherwise reliable, where the content appears is irrelevant. WP:RSPYT Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyphoidbomb: I agree. The channel is also verified, no COPYVIO either. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:19, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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