Talk:Nazareth Hall Preparatory Seminary/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Nominator: Darth Stabro (talk · contribs) 19:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 20:17, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Nice little historical article to continue my clearance of the education GANs. I look forward to reviewing! It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Prose Y

Lead

The lead is extremely short for a GA. I haven't read the article yet, but I think it should at least also include:

• Its purpose
• Why it was closed
• Its popularity/attendance

Lead sections should "the opening paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article" according to WP:BETTER/GRAF1. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y The lead looks much better now. Just one minor point: Link "Saint Paul". It is a wonderful world (talk) 21:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Changed that around a bit because it's technically in current-day Arden Hills - which is now linked. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 22:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Background

The body needs to be more consistent in referring to the Archdiocese of St Paul as a diocese pre-1880 and an archdiocese post-1880, and the words "diocese" and "archdiocese" need to be capitalized in several instances through the text. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Should be patched up

newly completed rectory: "newly completed" doesn't mean anything here, because you haven't specified a chronology other than "the early days of the Diocese of Saint Paul" which is very vague.

removed

rectory [next to] of the Cathedral of Saint Paul: Clarifies that they are distinct buildings

Is "Ecclesiastical Preparatory Seminary of St. Paul" notable enough to be linked?

Well, it doesn't have an article and I'm not sure if enough sources exist to be able to make one.

in the former cathedral: Source doesn't support that it was not longer a cathedral, and it doesn't seem correct.

Added source. For context, the modern-day cathedral is the fourth building with that name - cf. Cathedral of Saint Paul (Minnesota)#Previous_cathedrals

That institution eventually merged with the coeducational cathedral school: This school comes out of nowhere, I suggest adding some contextual information such as "with the coeducational cathedral school which operated in the same building"

Done

while still providing seminary classes: The "while" refers to an entity that no longer exists because it was merged into the cathedral school, and "seminary classes" are not a type of class. I think you are meaning to refer to the "seminary's classes". I think something like "the seminary's classes were integrated into the cathedral school's curriculum" would be clearer.

Done

Y Prior to the founding of Nazareth Hall, high-school and early college-aged seminarians for the Archdiocese of Saint Paul were educated at a number of institutions: This implies that this was not the case after Nazareth Hall was founded, but is it really true that all the high-school and early college-aged seminarians immediately went to Nazareth Hall? It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, according the Kaydet yearbook citation I just modified, all 140 eligible students immediately transferred - at least from the College of Saint Thomas. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 01:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

From the College of Saint Thomas only, versus all the eligible seminarians in the Archdiocese is a big difference. Do we have any more sources for this, or can it be reworded to mention the 140 seminarians transferring, without making extra implications? It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Rephrased in a way that I think should work. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 22:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks good It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Y personally tutored: Conciseness and neutrality It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y minor seminarians for the Diocese: Already mentioned and obvious enough anyways. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Done ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 01:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Y were educated there or at other seminary institutions in the United States or in Europe [abroad] It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Here I meant to cut everything I have written in strikethrough, for conciseness. It is a wonderful world (talk) 21:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Generally I read "abroad" as being in a foreign country, while not all seminarians were in fact overseas for their studies. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 01:54, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Fair, cutting everything sacrifices precision for conciseness, and since we are talking without complete precision anyways ("most minor seminarians were educated there"), I think it is a worthwhile change. However I am happy for it to stay the way it is too. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Y However, Thomas Grace hoped that eventually a dedicated college: The "however" links Grace's hopes to the previous sentence, however the previous sentence happens a year later than Grace buying the land, so they could not be linked. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y purchased forty acres on the shores of Lake Johanna with the hope it would eventually become a seminary [for that purpose] It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y of its time in that it functioned as a sort of [, functioning as a] combination [of a]: Conciseness, formality, precision. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y Link "Theological seminary" and "minor seminary" so the reader can find out the difference if they wish. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Done ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 01:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Founding

Y Austin Dowling became [the] Archbishop of St. Paul It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y The architects were Maginnis & Walsh of Boston.[1] The seminary was completed and dedicated by September 1923.: Joining these sentences with an "and" would improve flow. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y aspirants to the priesthood -> "students" It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Operation

Nazareth Hall covered six years of education - four years of high school: MOS:DASH

Link "Gregorian chant"

Puer Nazarenus (Latin for "Boy of Nazareth"): Use the translation format used in the rest of the article.

"ping-pong" -> "table tennis"

Closing and acquisition by the University of Northwestern

Y Its peak enrollment [was] in 1962 with 270 in the high school and 89 in the college.: Shouldn't this also be in the operation section? It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

1969-70 academic year: MOS:DASH

Buildings

Y Link "Crypt Church" It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y "Numidian" It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y Link "apse" It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Our Lady of the Annunciation Chapel

Mater Dei Chapel

Y What does the title "Heiress" mean in this context? It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y Use {{Translation}} as in Rita Cetina Gutiérrez for translation. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y All direct quotes always need inline citations Wikipedia:INLINECITE It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 01:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Y Per MOS:CONFORM, all caps should be removed. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y Link "triptych" It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Done ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 01:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Y Link "Archangel Gabriel" It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Done ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 01:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The stained glass windows and triptych were removed after the sale: Already said

Notable alumni

Y Many of these are unsourced or have unlinked sources that are really hard to find. All need to be at lease sourced. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources clock

Health/formatting Y

[6] and [20]: Links just link to the main database search. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to do with this as I wanted to indicate that they can be found in that database, but there is no way of directly linking them. Any ideas? I couldn't find an appropriate template parameter. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 20:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I see how this is a bit of a pain, I just realised the URL doesn't even link to the database search, it links to the company which created the database. Is there a way you can at least link to the database search? If not, remove the link since it serves no use. It is a wonderful world (talk) 22:03, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

It actually looks like the URL has changed! Seems the university switched to a new publisher. Fixing that now. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 01:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Great! Looks good now. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Y It's a bit weird only having [20] quote the source in the references section. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y [22]: Shouldn't cite bible gateway, it should cite the bible version, with a link to bible gateway. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This is difficult as I'm trying to specifically cite the two Bible versions being quoted in two different languages; any ideas? ~Darth Stabro^{Talk/Contribs} 20:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I think the best way would be to have two citations, one for each bible version. It is a wonderful world (talk) 22:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Additionally it would be helpful to have "Directly above the door is the [Latin] inscription" in the text. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Done ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 22:34, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm working on a solution here, because existing citation templated for the Bible don't have the ability to do the Vulgate translation. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 22:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I think I've figured out a solution. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 22:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks good now. It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Y [23, 26]: Bare foreign URLs, extremely vulnerable to link rot. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Reliability Y

Almost all either published historical books or newspapers, all seems reliable. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Spot check clock

Before doing the spot check, I am going to wait until the Internet Archive allows logging in, so I can check the highly used reference [2]. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately it is still not allowing logging in yet. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I've found a different URL, from the publisher itself, allowing free access. It should be linked now. Additionally I added the individual page numbers so they'd be easier for you to find. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 22:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Awesome, will spot check later today. It is a wonderful world (talk) 12:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

My sincere apologies for taking so long on this. I have begun the spot check below. The last two days have been very busy for me. It is a wonderful world (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Darth Stabro, I have finished the initial spot check. There seems to be a lot of problems, but that may be because I picked the medium-large references to check. It is a wonderful world (talk) 10:58, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Goodness, embarrassing for me! I put in most of the legwork on this article a few years ago so I may have been a bit sloppier than I am now. I'll get on it. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 14:43, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Darth Stabro, I just finished a full source check, since there was quite a lot of problems, and some nitpicks. I also noticed some prose improvements to be made while doing it (particularly in the "background" section). Once the sourcing and prose problems and have been fixed, it should be near GA, but I'll give it one more read through.

I would encourage you to be a bit more careful with keeping the text supported by the sources in the future, it's very easy to end up having to do a full source check if you aren't careful. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

@It is a wonderful world: I'm really sorry about all this hassle. I should have gone through and checked before submitting. I just got a few other articled approved for GA and I thought this one I wrote a few years ago was pretty well written and ready to go, and I didn't realize how much my co-writer and I had been more loose with how we wrote it. ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 14:40, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@Darth Stabro That is of course fine, I went though the full source check process because I sensed this was the case and the only way to really iron out all issues would be for someone to do a full source check. Since I had time I thought I may as well do it myself rather than failing. I look forward to your responses, feel free to push back where appropriate. It is a wonderful world (talk) 14:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@It is a wonderful world: Ok - I *think* I've got everything taken care of. Thank you so much for your patience! ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 16:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Darth Stabro I noticed the references needed a decent bit of formatting and meta-information to be easier to find, and less vulnerable to link rot. I went ahead and did that myself since it was minor edits. If you have any problems with any changes, feel free to revert. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

@Darth Stabro I have just gone through all your responses and am happy with all. There was a few instances where I think you forgot to actually make the changes in the article, so I went ahead and did them. I think this article is GA worthy now, so I am going to pass it.

Congratulations on a great article! If you ever nominate again in the future, feel free to ping me, and if I have time I'll review. It is a wonderful world (talk) 15:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

[1a]: Page number?

Done

[2a]: Page number seems to be incorrect on this, though the last bit of the text is supported

Reworded

• The last half is supported now, but the first part: In the early years of the Diocese of Saint Paul, its high-school and early college-aged seminarians were educated at a number of institutions. Many of the first seminarians of the diocese were tutored by bishop Joseph Crétin and other clerical teachers in the newly completed rectory of the Cathedral of Saint Paul. is still unsupported.

Cited

[2b]: However, after an expansion of the Benedictine St. John's College within the diocese in 1867:

• The source calls it a re-opening, not an "expansion"
• Link "Benedictine"

either at St. John's or more far-flung institutions in the United States or Europe:

• "far-flung" lacks formality, perhaps "distant"?

All done

[2c]: The latter part of the paragraph is supported but not the beginning.

Done

[2d, 3a]: Everything is supported except "Following Bishop Ireland's death in 1918"

Added source

Still doesn't support the 1918 date, that is supported by page 434 of the source you added

Added

[3b, 4]: Needs page 452 of [3] to support the construction cost, and page 449 for the 1920 date.

Added

[5a]: Y

[5b, 3c]: Supported but [3c] needs page number.

Done

[6]: Y

[2e]: Y

[3d]: Y

[3e]: Y

[7]: Page number?

Done

[2f]: Y

[8a]: Y

[9]: Unsupported, needs a secondary source

Done

[10a]: Y

[3f]: Y

[3g]: Y

[11]: Y

[12a]: Y

[12b, 13a]: here is a permanent URL for [13], "over" is an exaggeration of the sources in both cases.

Done

[14a, b, c, d]: Can't check, have no copy. Given the significant amount of sourcing errors, could you double check that the text is supported by this source though.

Double-checked and change source of [c]

[8b]: Y

[12c]: Y

[15a, 16b]: Y

[3h, 17]: Y

[18]: Y

[3i, 16b]: Y

[10b]: Y

[19]: Supports the next, but this is the same reference as [15]

I think you mean [17] and [15] are the same, [19] is slightly different. [17] and [15] merged.

[15b]: All supported except the bit about the wedding venue

I think you may be looking at the wrong link, it's there.

[16c, 20]: I don't see the bit about St. Michael's

Added source

[21a]: Y

[22a]: Y

[21b]: Y

[22b]: Y

[22c]: Y

[22d, 21b]: Y

[23, 24]: Y

[25]: Won't load for me for some reason, but I'm sure it's fine

[26]: Later credentials unsupported.

Done

[27, 28]: Later credentials unsupported.

Source added

Unfortunately, source doesn't seem reliable. The website does list its sources at the bottom though.

The source has been discussed a few times and the consensus seems to be that if it's reporting on 1600 onwards, it's reliable secondary reporting of the official Annuario Pontifico; the argument is that it's not WP:SPS in the sense of WP:NOR because the site owner simply reliably re-presents what is in the offline sources.

[29]: Y

[30]: Y

[31]: Doesn't say he went to Nazareth Hall

I'm not sure if we're looking at the same source here; if you're basing off of the most recent diff here, source 31, that is this Newspapers.com clip does say that Patrick Hessian attended Nazareth Hall.

[32]: Here is a permanent URL. "Best known for his hymn" requires attribution, and the source does not support it.

rephrased and sourced

[33]: Later credentials unsupported.

Added

[34]: Here is a permanent URL, it does not support the dates of his tenure as archbishop though.

Done

[35]: Y

[16d]: Y

[36]: Later credentials unsupported.

resourced

[37]: Auxiliary Bishop credentials unsupported.

added

[38]: Y

[1b, 13b]: Page number for [1b]?

added

[39-45]: Need page numbers

Added. Also removed some of the date ranges because they aren't directly supported; I'll have to dig around in a physical library at some point in the next few weeks to find what I need for those.

[46]: Y

[47]: Y Here is a permanent URL (I also saved it and the other Catholic Spirit/Bulletin URLs on archive.org already). I linked the 12 July issue, because the 12 June issue was wrong on some information.

Scope Y

It follows the structure of other good and featured articles on schools. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I think some would argue that the background and founding sections are too long, but I personally like how they aid understanding. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Copyvio Y

32.0% on Earwig, no too close paraphrases detected. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Stable Y

Media Y

It's great to see so many images in the article, many of which you contributed yourself. It really adds to the article. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y The final image should not be in the rectors section, but where the the stations of the cross decor is mentioned. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Captions Y

"baldachin" could be linked. I didn't know what it was before coming across a link to it later in the article. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Tags Y

Suggestions

The following points are not needed for GA promotion, but are somehow related to the article. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems like this should be in Wikiproject Schools. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y Most other articles have the notes section above the references section. Not sure if this is something you considered. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y Consider linking any unlinked references, it makes it so much easier for the reader to verify information. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Y {{Inflation}} is a great template for adding a conversion to modern money that will automatically update. This would help understand how much $1,280,000 and $500,000 really was back then. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:24, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.