Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Denver

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Okay, fine, i am deleting the link to the file from this list-article. doncram (talk) 19:21, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Eugene Field House

#106 on the list is in St. Louis. Dunno if there are two Eugene Field Houses, but something's wrong ... —johndburger 17:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there are two such houses. This isn't the only such duplication (just look at First Presbyterian Church to see how many of them are listed!), but this is a rather egregious error that should have been caught before now. I don't say this to put down anyone else: just a minute ago I looked at the article and completely missed the fact that it wasn't a Denver site. I'm about to reformat the page, so I've incorporated your correction. Thanks for your attentiveness! Nyttend (talk) 19:57, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Bear Canon Agricultural District

There's such a place in Douglas County, so not too far south; but this surely is mislocated. Nyttend (talk) 19:53, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

This page takes forever to load.

Would there be any way to divide up this page into, for example, three separate pages? The page takes a long time to load, and I think separating it into three pages would ameliorate the problem. I am working on adding images for as many entries as I can, a project that will only worsen the problem. Thanks. Denverjeffrey (talk) 14:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Several large cities have been split into multiple listings pages, so there's plenty of precedent — for example, Baltimore has five separate listings pages. Normally, these splits have been done by official boundaries, such as city-designated neighborhoods. Does Denver have such neighborhoods/districts/etc.? If so, please explain it in a few words here. I'm going to post a note at the NRHP project page, asking members to help decide the best way to split this page. Nyttend (talk) 20:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

The 79 official neighborhoods of the City and County of Denver.

Denver is divided in to seventy-something or eighty-something (I forget the exact number) neighborhoods, and a map of them is here. That's probably too granular, especially since the majority of the NRHPs are in just a few neighborhoods close to the center of town. Another option might be to divide the city into four parts, with Broadway and Ellsworth being the center point, and those streets the dividing lines. Alternatively, the pages could be divided alphabetically. Thanks for your help with this, and I look forward to hearing what the folks on the project page say. Denverjeffrey (talk) 01:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

It should be easy to combine bits of what has been done at Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh hasn't been split, because there aren't a ton of listings; however, the "City or Town" column has been changed to "Neighborhood", and all sites are listed by neighborhood. Street addresses and coordinates, I expect, would be sufficient to determine neighborhoods for all of these. Meanwhile, with Baltimore we grouped neighborhoods together in articles. Therefore, I think it should be easy to do this in two steps: first figuring out in which neighborhood each site is located, and then deciding on which neighborhoods should be clumped together for a page. I'm sleepy...is this making sense? Nyttend (talk) 04:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

BTW, what about this map? It looks useful for 79 neighborhoods with officially-designated boundaries. Nyttend (talk) 05:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

That looks like a very helpful, detailed map. A coarser image of those 79 neighborhoods is included in the List of neighborhoods in Denver article, which Dudemanfellabra at wt:NRHP refers to, and, now, the coarse map is inserted here (above). I agree with Nyttend, that adding a column for neighborhoods and then identifying them gradually will enable you, eventually, to split the article by big areas of Denver that are defined as groups of these neighborhoods. Perhaps NW, NE, SE, SW? Hopefully some division that is actually used in Denver. doncram (talk) 06:33, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

P.S. There are other partitions of Denver available in browsing "Other maps" linked from the Denvergov.org map page. For example, under "Government", there are 11 City Council districts, all mapped. However, when considering using electoral districts for dividing up another NRHP list, the List of RHPs in PR, it was pointed out that the Senatorial electoral districts there get changed every so often and are not stable enough, not well known to use for dividing the NRHP list. I don't know if Denver's City Council districts would be stable, probably not. But perhaps other groups of neighborhoods are in some other one of the "Other maps" category. doncram (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Adding an additional column to list the official neighborhood of each site sounds like a good idea to me, and it would be helpful in deciding how to divide up the page. I've also been adding articles for the neighborhoods, and this listing would be helpful to me in that endeavor. Thanks for all your advice. Denverjeffrey (talk) 17:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I've added such a column. Not being familiar with the city, I've only listed one site in its neighborhood (because its summary line explained its neighborhood), so someone else will have to do the other 282. Nyttend (talk) 03:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Kistler Stationery Company Building

There is no building numbered 1636 (the address given for the Kistler Building) on Champa Street that I could find. There is one numbered 1640, and I am assuming this is the Kistler Stationery Company Building and added the photo I shot of it to the page. The space to the right of this building (i.e. with numbering lower than 1640) is sort of a driveway of a modern Social Security Administration building, so there is definitely no number 1636. Let me know if I am mistaken. Denverjeffrey (talk) 18:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe that it's a modern numbering issue. The building to the left (northeast) of the one you have is the Boston Building, so it's definitely not that either. Rather, I believe that 1636 is the address of the middle of the building, under the "FastSigns" sign. I must admit, when I was walking around Denver getting the pictures that are on here, I was somewhat confused by the numbering system; if I remember rightly, the address for the Magnolia Hotel is 828 17th St., but the building in which it is located (the First National Bank Building) is listed at 818 17th. By the way, check the nomination form (PDF page 50) for the multiple property submission that resulted in this building being listed, in which older buildings are darker — if you look at the southern corner of 17th and Champa, you'll see the Boston Building's non-rectangular shape, with another older building (where 1640 is now) to the southeast, and a newer building (where the one immediately to the left of this one) southeast of that. Nyttend (talk) 04:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, that is helpful. Denverjeffrey (talk) 15:13, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Spelling of Brueger Brothers Building and Annex

The website for the Colorado Historical Society spells the name of this site differently, and I don't know which is correct. At this site, it is spelled, "BUERGER BROTHERS BUILDING AND ANNEX." Denverjeffrey (talk) 00:13, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

See the MPS form, which spells it in the same way as does the CHS. This is clearly a typo by the NRIS. Nyttend (talk) 03:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Helene Apartment Building

I think the address listed for the Helene Apartment Building on the article page here is incorrect. I went there to photograph the building and found it at number 1062. The picture is here: . Also the Colorado State Historical Society page puts it at 1062; see here. Thanks, Denverjeffrey (talk) 23:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Reported at WP:NRIS issues. Nyttend (talk) 23:22, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Splitting into several pieces

Now that all sites have a neighborhood or neighborhoods listed, it's time to split this list into several pieces so that it's not so absurdly large. In general, when we split city lists like this, it's done geographically — several smaller articles will be created, each of which includes all the listings in a specific set of neighborhoods. See Baltimore and Philadelphia for examples of this. Denver is different from those two in that it has much smaller officially-defined neighborhoods, so we'll have to group many neighborhoods per article. How many lists do we want? My preference (without having checked how large such lists would be) would be to see five lists: one for downtown and one each for northeast, northwest, southeast, and southwest. My first suggestion is to have the downtown list consist of all properties in Capitol Hill, Central Business District, Civic Center, Five Points, North Capitol Hill, and Union Station. I propose making the Platte the dividing line between east and west, with U.S. Route 40 being the rough boundary between northeast and southeast and State Highway 6 being the rough boundary between northwest and southwest. Such a division would leave all non-downtown neighborhoods in one quadrant, except for East Colfax; we'd have to decide whether to put it in northeast or southeast. All suggestions for boundaries, by the way, come from the neighborhood maps available at http://www.denvergov.org/denvermaps/report.asp?rpt=ccust&cat=ccust — after clicking on the link, select "Create a Custom Map", click "Show Optional Map Layers", and select "Neighborhoods" and "Update Maps".

Please understand that this is coming from someone who has visited Denver ones. I saw plenty of downtown, but nothing else except for what one can see from the interstates. If there's a common local understanding of regions of the city, whether by quadrants or otherwise, I strongly suggest that we go that way rather than by a geometric method such as I have suggested. Nyttend (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the progress made on identifying neighborhoods so far has been great! One of Denverjeffries' original suggestions was to split into NW, NE, SE, SW quadrants, based on north-south running Broadway and east-west running Ellsworth. I see in the detailed neighborhoods map (linked above), that Ellsworth is "zero avenue" and that First Avenue, Second Avenue, etc., are parallel above it. I see in Google maps that Broadway is in fact the dividing line for street numbering, so East Second Avenue vs. West Second Avenue divide there, etc. Quadrants seems to be a good way to go, looks like it would be recognizable for Denverites (altho I am speaking from afar). The Washington D.C. list was also divided by quadrants, with addition of one grouping of Washington Mall area places. I don't notice any specific neighborhood in the map of 79 neighborhoods that are clearly the "downtown" ones as Nyttend is suggesting. So just splitting by 4 quadrants with no separate downtown grouping looks fine to me. On the other hand I notice that Ellsworth splits each in a row of neighborhoods. If east-west Alameda was used instead of Ellsworth, that would keep those neighborhoods whole. As Nyttend does, I would defer to locals on what's best. Dividing just on North-South rnnning Broadway, which is the boundary between named neighborhoods, would be easy, but doesn't help enough on its own. If dividing, one should break this up into 4-5 or more manageable chunks. doncram (talk) 02:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, now I see the Civic Centre, Capitol Hill, and other neighborhoods Nyttend speaks of. If those make a sensible grouping, that's fine by me too. Also i see in the linked Google map that Ellsworth and Alameda are a bit south of most of the NRHP sites. The remainder could then be split into 4 quadrants, and it doesn't have to be Ellsworth, it could be 6th Avenue which is the State Hwy 6 that Nyttend refers to. Whatever! doncram (talk) 02:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I think Nyttend's suggestions for dividing the city into five parts sounds great. Only two small points: First, let's think about including Auraria among the downtown group. Second, The East Colfax neighborhood, in my opinion, fits better with Northeast than Southeast. This is great! Thanks. I just added six new photographs. Denverjeffrey (talk) 19:10, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Unlike the neighborhoods that I proposed for downtown, I never saw Auraria; I thought it was just residential areas generally without the commercial development that is seen in the six neighborhoods that I proposed. Just slightly concerned, however: would a seven-neighborhood "downtown" be too large for a single list? I was wondering if six would be too large, and seven might make it more of a problem. Nyttend (talk) 03:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

No problem if Auraria is not included in the downtown section. It was redeveloped in the 1970s and is no longer residential. It houses the Auraria Campus which is the home to three institutions of higher learning. Its street grid, however, matches and continues the pattern of the Central Business District. That is to say, its streets don't go north-south and east-west like most of Denver's streets do; they go northwest-southeast, like CBD's do. Thanks for your helpful suggestion regarding montages for sites that include more than a single structure and for your helpful feedback on the Vine Street houses. Denverjeffrey (talk) 14:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Table

Here's a table for all neighborhoods. Neighborhoods with 0 listings aren't included. I've given the regions per my suggested boundaries above. Nyttend (talk) 18:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Nine sites are located in multiple neighborhoods: 19th Street Bridge (Highland and Union Station), East Sixth Avenue Parkway (Hale, Hilltop, and Montclair), East Seventh Avenue Parkway (Congress Park and Country Club), Monaco Street Parkway (Hilltop, Montclair, and South Park Hill), Overland Cotton Mill (College View and South Platte), Park Hill (North Park Hill and South Park Hill), South Platte River Bridges (Auraria, Jefferson Park, and Sun Valley), Speer Boulevard (Civic Center, Lincoln Park, and Speer), and University Boulevard (Belcaro, Cory-Merrill, and Washington Park). Four sites are included in multiple regions: 19th Street Bridge (Downtown and Northwest), Monaco Street Parkway (Northeast and Southeast), South Platte River Bridges (Northeast and Northwest), and Speer Boulevard (Downtown and Southeast).

P.S. — I've changed the table to reflect suggestions made after I initially placed the table. Nyttend (talk) 13:32, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Neighborhood	Region	# of sites
Auraria	Northeast	5
Baker	Southeast	2
Barnum	West	1
Bear Valley	West	1
Belcaro	Southeast	2
Berkeley	West	4
Capitol Hill	Downtown	31
Central Business District	Downtown	34
Cheesman Park	Northeast	10
City Park	Northeast	4
City Park West	Northeast	9
Civic Center	Downtown	8
Clayton	Northeast	2
Cole	Northeast	3
College View	West	1
Congress Park	Northeast	4
Cory-Merrill	Southeast	2
Country Club	Southeast	8
Elyria-Swansea	Northeast	2
Five Points	Downtown	23
Globeville	West	1
Hale	Northeast	3
Harvey Park South	West	1
Highland	West	17
Hilltop	Southeast	8
Jefferson Park	West	4
Lincoln Park	Northeast	7
Lowry Field	Southeast	3
Montclair	Northeast	7
North Capitol Hill	Downtown	24
Northeast Park Hill	Northeast	1
North Park Hill	Northeast	1
Platt Park	Southeast	1
Regis	West	2
Skyland	Northeast	1
Sloan Lake	West	1
South Park Hill	Northeast	8
South Platte	West	1
Speer	Southeast	6
Sun Valley	West	1
Union Station	Downtown	19
University	Southeast	2
University Park	Southeast	3
Washington Park	Southeast	6
Washington Virginia Vale	Southeast	1
West Colfax	West	6
West Highland	West	5
Whittier	Northeast	1

If we adopt these boundaries, we'll have:

• Downtown — 139
• Northeast — 37
• Northwest — 37
• Southeast — 75
• Southwest — 9

I'd like to suggest moving the north/south meridian to Sixth Avenue on the eastern side of the river as well as on the west, and assigning all split neighborhoods to the side on which the majority of the area is located. This would result in Lincoln Park, Cheesman Park, Congress Park, Hale, and Montclair being moved to Northeast, and the numbers would change from 75 and 37 to 46 and 68 respectively. Note that the East Sixth Avenue Parkway would become a duplicate, and Speer Boulevard would go from two regions to three. If we adopt this plan, we should make one exception: these new boundaries would make the East Seventh Avenue Parkway a duplicate, but we should leave it as Northeast only, since it would be absurd to say that it was south of the East Sixth Avenue Parkway. Of course it's not a huge change, but it would help average out the sizes of the pages, and it would be simpler if we used a single north/south meridian. Nyttend (talk) 21:53, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

One more suggestion — what if we use just four regions, with my suggested Northwest and Southwest being simply West? If all of my suggestions are adopted, we'll have:

• Downtown — 139
• Northeast — 68
• Southeast — 46
• West — 46

Sounds great. The simpler division, that is, the one with four separate pages, sounds best. Thanks, Denverjeffrey (talk) 12:32, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to add a second part to each entry in the Neighborhood column: its region by these boundaries. This should make it easier when we get around to doing the actual split. Nyttend (talk)

BTW, I've changed the table to reflect the new regions. Nyttend (talk) 13:32, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Regions added to neighborhoods. Nyttend (talk) 15:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Split complete

I've completed the split. Is everything sufficient, or should I have done something otherwise? Nyttend (talk) 18:16, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

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