Talk:Narodno Osloboditelen Front

Dear colleagues

One week ago, I created this article. Due to the fact that I was occupied with work these days, I could not find any time to finish the wikification and imputing of references and sources. But I will do that this week and till Friday the article will be finished.

I have a request to the administrators, to observe the article and not let other people, move it around to different places and sabotage it.

Thank you in advance Revizionist

Request for removal of neutrality sign

The NOF was an antifascist organization of ethnic Macedonians living in Northern Greece - mainly in the compact areas of Florina, Kastoria and Edesa, but also in some villages around Thessaloniki, Kilkis and Serres.

In 1945 in a village around Kastoria, a group of Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia (Northern Greece) headed by Paskal Mitrevski and Mihail Ketemidzhiev formed the NOF – National Liberation Front. The first 2 years it worked independent and even had some conflicts with the KKE regarding the form of struggle, and the position of minority rights. However in 1946 NOF, after conducting 6 months negotiations with the KKE, united with the Democratic Army and conducted a joint fight against the right-wing government in Athens.

I propose, the neutrality sign to be removed until someone comes up with some other proves.

I will continue with the Wikification and references, and will also upload some scanned materials if needed. Revizionist

Hold your horses please!!

Hello, I just stumbled upon this article from the Greek Civil War article. I gather there are at least three (3) article titles about the same thing:

At the same time, there is some kind of edit warring that I accidentally got into the middle of between User:Лилјак and User:Revizionist about what should be redirected where. I propose that you two stop the edit warring and discuss like wikipedians.

So, let's talk: what should be the article name and what should be the redirects to it? (For one, SNOF is ruled out as an article name, as it is an initialism). --Michalis Famelis (talk) 14:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Revizionist is creating multiple articles of the subject, the SNOF. The title SNOF (Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Front) is recognized by not only third-party scholars, but also by ethnic Macedonians as the "Slvajano-Makedonski Narodno Osloboditelen Front". Revizionist insists on using a POV title in the form of the native Macedonian language. Лилјак 14:49, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Michalis Famelis.

If you look at the bottom of the history page, you will see that this article was made by me one week ago. I created the article Narodno Osloboditelen Front and SNOF. But when i entered my profile today, I say that the user Лилјак has vandalised this article by moving it on a diferent name created by him: Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Front. The text of my article, was moved to another place and was renamed. You will notice it if you see the history page of these articles, and see that the article was moved. Revizionist

Wikipedia did not add the "Move" option to the top of every article so that Wikipedians are able to vandalize the page. The fact that you created the article does not mean other users are not eligible to contribute to it. Лилјак 15:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that in Wikipedia, articles are not "owned" by any editor. Therefore, the article is not "your article" (see the respective WP rule: WP:OWN). The article should be named after the most commonly used English name of the organization. So, the important question is: What is the most commonly used name in English to refer to it?

As I see it the title "Narodno Osloboditelen Front" is not good enough, as it is not English, but a transliteration. Compare to National People's Liberation Army (the article is not named "Ethnikos Laikos Apeleftherotikos Stratos"). --Michalis Famelis (talk) 15:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to clarify things: the SNOF and the NOF are considered different organizations? --Michalis Famelis (talk) 15:17, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I created the article, spent so much time reading from Saranta Hronia tou KKE, Nerisospastis and Risospastis articles, also books written by DSE veterans. I will imput all of the refference, but Лилјак must stop vandalising. First of all I must say that SNOF is not the same with NOF. SNOF was an anti-fascist organization created by the KKE in 1943 and dismissed by it in 1944. SNOF stands for (Slavjano Makeodnski Narodno Osloboditelen Front), and NOF is an organisation formed in 1945 and is a different organisation (unlike Лилјак claims). NOF was active from 1945-1949. In 1946 it united with markos Vafiadis'Democratic Army. And in this army etnic Macedonians fought together with their greek brothers in ideas and arms against the right-wing govrnement. This article is very important, because it is about the time when greeks and ethnic Macedonains fought together like brathers. And we must not let this article to be corupted and vandalised by Лилјак, who didn't do nothing else, but moving the article from one place to another, and redirecting. SNOF stands for Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Front as it is expolained in the article, and that's why Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Front has to be redirected to SNOF, and Narodno Osloboditelen Front is a different organisation. I will compleate the articles I started when dis dispute finishes.

P.S. I am not a specialist in Wikipedia, but I won't let someone vandalise this important article without reason. But ok, maybe the best way to name it is National Liberation Front (Ethnic Macedonains from Greece) for Narodno Osloboditelen Front, and SNOF may remain be redirected to Slavic Macedonian National Liberation Front.These are the official name used in historic literature, and I would be satisfied with this solution. But it must be clear that NOF and SNOF are two different organisations.Revizionist

They are the same organization, the NOF was the successor of SNOF: "SNOF organization (later renamed NOF)"[1] and "the successor of the SNOF, the National Liberation Front (NOF)" [2]

Slav/o-Macedonian National Liberation Front:
- [3] (British officer's report on ethnic Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia) (Note: ethnic Macedonian source which has not altered the document)
- [4] (Note: Greek source)
- [5] (Note: Translates "Narodni Osloboditelni Front" into "The Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Front")
- [6]
- [7] (Note: German source)
Slav National Liberation Front
- [8] (Note: ethnic Macedonian source)
- [9] (Note: ethnic Macedonian source)

The term "Macedonian" must be distinct in the article as the article relates to the Greek Civil War. In this case, "Macedonians" needs to be termed "ethnic Macedonians" therefore the title (as it is recognized) should be "Slav-Macedonian National Liberation Front" or "National liberation Front (Macedonia)" to keep the article distinct when referring to it in Greek related topics. Лилјак 15:34, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will agree with the article Narodno Osloboditelen Front to be redirected to National Liberation Front (Ethnic Macedonians from Greece), and SNOF to be redirected to Slavic Macedonian National Liberation Front. Thus they will be distinct from Greek related topics. Revizionist

I propose these articles to stay:

- National Liberation Front (Macedonia) and redirection from Narodno Osloboditelen Front
- Slavic Macedonian National Liberation Front and redirection from SNOF

the adjective is Slavic, not Slav. ex: Slavic Languages, Slavic peoples. I hope this finishes soon, becuase I spent the whole day in front of the computer. When the dispute finishes I will include bothe ethnic Macedonain and Greek sources.

If SNOF and NOF were to become independent articles, they would have to be linked to each other and the fact that NOF is the successor of SNOF would have to be mentioned. My proposal for NOF as an independent article is to name it "National Liberation Front (Macedonia)" and refer to it as an collaborative yet distinct organization to the "National Liberation Front (Greece)". "Naroden Osloboditelen Front" cannot be used as the primary title, only in the translation. Лилјак 16:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Although I know very very little about the subject at hand, I think that Лилјак's last proposal is sensible enough. Do we have any kind of consensus? --Michalis Famelis (talk) 16:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree that his last proposal is sensible. And I will elaborate the 3 components of my stand (with is in accordance with Лилјак's proposal. 1) There will be an article called National Liberation Front (Macedonia), and it will contain the article I wrote. There will also be the article Slavic Macedonian National Liberation Front redirected with SNOF. 2) I will mention (as I did, but more elaborately), that NOF was created from several former SNOF members - but the main organization is the NOF (which operated 5 years), and not the SNOF (which operated 1 year). 3) if you look in Wikipedia you will see a lot of articles containing the original names in their languages: Armia Krajowa, Związek Walki Zbrojnej, Arditi del Popolo, Fuerzas Armadas de Liberación Nacional (Puerto Rico), Synaspismos - so I don't see no reason why Narodno Osloboditelen Front can not figurate as a link towards National Liberation Front (Macedonia). And maybe 4) all other redirections beside those that were mentioned now to be erased in order to evade confusion. Revizionist 19:14, 12 August 2007