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Feedback from New Page Review process

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I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Thanks for creating the article!.

✠ SunDawn ✠ (contact) 12:44, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Edit question

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FDwebb (talk · contribs) Wanted to discuss this edit you made to Naomi Sewell Richardson. I would say Richardson's participation in Delta Sigma Theta's march was significant--it was one of the first major acts of the sorority, and directly in-line with her description as a suffragist. It happened while she was in school, and therefore relevant to the 'Early life and education' section. Is there any reason not to include this detail? Thanks! CaptainAngus (talk) 01:22, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

FDwebb (talk · contribs) I went ahead and reverted your edit; I'd be happy to discuss further if you want. In line with my above comments, I think the material in question is valid for inclusion in this article. CaptainAngus (talk) 02:58, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The truth is she didn't march in the suffrage march. It is stated as her organization did but this is a lie. The statement originated from In search of sisterhood by Paula Giddings ( a member of this organization) but she only alludes that it included some members. The source she uses for this is The Crisis, April 1914 which says 25 Howard students. Another Delta founder Bertha Pitts Campbell states only the seniors marched and says so in her autobiography. Too young to be old. Naomi didn't graduate until 1914. Only current books state that the 22 founders marched and they all reference the Giddings source. I have over 158 sources from 1913 - 1915 that mention they were the Howard students. She may have been a suffragist but she did not participate in the march. There was no sorority section and to continue this story is to deny the actual 25 Howard women the credit they deserve for the actions they actually took. The Times Dispatch , The Crisis, April 1913, p. 298., HU Journal, Volume 10 Issue 21 - Digital Howard @ Howard ...
dh.howard.edu › cgi › viewcontent, Times Dispatch, Richmond, VA, March 2, 1913, p.2
FDwebb (talk) 23:12, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FDwebb (talk · contribs) The links you pasted don't back up what you're saying. The first link (Times Dispatch) returns a 404 error and the other two both point to the same issue of the HU Journal (Volume 10, issue 21). That article doesn't say anything about exact participation. Can you provide any other references? Also, given that there are numerous WP:RSP that say they did march, it might be good for a source backing up your other claims? Here is a quick list of sources stating they did march (which I pulled from this article as well as the articles of the other founders):
Thanks! CaptainAngus (talk) 01:26, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FDwebb (talk · contribs) I went ahead and reverted your edit again; I would love to finish the discussion when you can. Like I said above, your provided sources didn't back up your claim as far as I could tell, nor could I find any on my own. If you have the WP:RSP's, please provide! CaptainAngus (talk) 01:07, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • https://www.nps.gov/articles/woman-suffrage-procession1913.htm - This one is inaccurate. The article quotes the crisis but says Deltas when the article states they are 25 Howard students, not only were there no sororities in the march, there were only 20 - 22 Deltas in existence. Again this is the article. The Crisis, April 1913, p. 298
  • https://search.alexanderstreet.com/view/work/bibliographic_entity%7Cbibliographic_details%7C4078789/biographical-sketch-osceola-macarthy-adams-1890-1983 - references the book - Giddings, Paula. In Search of Sisterhood: Delta Sigma Theta and the Challenge of the Black Sorority Movement. New York: Amistad, 2006. which references - The Crisis, April 1913, p. 298 The article quotes the crisis but says Deltas when the article states they are 25 Howard students . Again this is the article. The Crisis, April 1913, p. 298
  • https://www.womensactivism.nyc/stories/7667 - This article has no references and speaks about Osceola McCarthy Adams, she is NOT Naomi Richardson. Osceola was a senior and may have marched as a Howard student, the girls of Howard University marched in caps and gowns. It says only seniors in one of their books. - Here is a reference: Hill, P. S. (2008). Too Young to Be Old: The Story of Bertha Pitts Campbell. United States: Author House. Here is another one. Howard University Journal. 3-14-1913. HU Journal ... "HU Journal, Volume 10 Issue 21" (1913)
  • https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/dent-jessie-may-mcguire - All the references are from current sources that all rely and references the book - Giddings, Paula. In Search of Sisterhood: Delta Sigma Theta and the Challenge of the Black Sorority Movement. New York: Amistad, 2006. which references - The Crisis, April 1913, p. 298
Here are some from the time it occurred and none of them mention Deltas, because its not true. Some members marched but as Howard university students. The students who marched were seniors and did so holding a Howard University Banner, while wearing Howard gowns in the collegiate section.
Alice Paul says it.
https://www.alicepaul.org/recordings/ 30: 25 Pg. 133
Evening Star Washington, District of Columbia Sun, Feb 16, 1913 · Page 13
The Times Dispatch “Colored Women in Suffrage Parade.” Richmond, VA. March 2, 1913. From Library of Congress: Chroni-cling America. Washington, District of Columbia
Lead Daily Call Lead, South Dakota, Mon, Mar 03, 1913 · Page 1
The Broad Ax, Salt Lake City, Utah Sat, Mar 08, 1913 · Page 1 FDwebb (talk) 23:24, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FDwebb (talk · contribs) I appreciate the discussion here. From my perspective, the claim you are making isn't jumping out at me. Perhaps you can help me more? I found the referenced issue of The Crisis (https://modjourn.org/issue/bdr520221/). On page 296, there is an article titled "Suffrage Paraders", which includes a list of the different groups, including this phrase: "Howard University—group of twenty-five girls in caps and gowns". To me, this isn't a declarative statement and doesn't contradict anything that comes from the WP:RS's. The 25 in question could be the founders, after all. I saw similar word usage in some of the other links you provided. But nothing that is explicit or clearly stated. CaptainAngus (talk) 01:32, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The 25 Howard University women were the Howard university seniors of the class of 1913.
They represented Howard University. This is why they wore caps and gowns, marched in the collegiate section and carried a Howard Banner. There was no sorority representation in the parade at all, nor did they march as Deltas. The 25 in the caps and gowns could not be "The Deltas" as there were not even 25 Deltas in existence in March of 1913. A great deal of the 25 women were NOT members of Delta Sigma Theta but ALL of the 25 were Howard University Seniors. Delta Sigma Theta the organization did not participate in the march, nor were the majority of women who marched in the section members of Deltas Sigma Theta. Howard University participated in the march and represented only Howard University. Naomi Sewell Richardson did not participate in the march at all as she as in the class of 1914. The autobiography of Bertha Pitts Campbell, Class of 1913 and Delta Sigma Theta founder says only the seniors marched. She did not march in the 1913 Suffrage parade. I have more sources that clearly state the Howard women. Also Inez Millholland who led the march only says Howard women as well. Do you need to see that citation? FDwebb (talk) 23:43, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FDwebb (talk · contribs) Any edit made should be backed by a WP:RS. I didn't see anything as direct as what you just said in the links you provided. Maybe a more experienced editor can weigh in, but if something has to be inferred or pieced together, I don't know at what point that becomes WP:OR. CaptainAngus (talk) 00:41, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just one question, if you don't mind. Do you happen to know of any articles written between 1913 and 1953 that state that Naomi was in the march or any sorority was in the march? FDwebb (talk) 19:57, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FDwebb (talk · contribs) Scanning the sources on this page and the pages of the other founders, I see multiple references making the claim, but not written between 1913 and 1953 (as far as I can tell). CaptainAngus (talk) 19:31, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks for checking. FDwebb (talk) 06:16, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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