Talk:Nahal Oz (kibbutz)
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Village was not occupied it was attacked
[edit]I have made said edit it was not an occupation it was an attack in witch they left after not an occupation 109.180.163.43 (talk) 23:36, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Carnage photo
[edit]Is there really a necessity to publish this picture in the article? It does not deliver any real insight or context but only caters sensationalism. It seems there has not been any appreciation between respect and information demand in this case. Vonfernseher 186.74.85.223 (talk) 18:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
Massacre, not attack
[edit]Per the Wikipedia article & the Cambridge dictionary a massacre is "an event of killing people who are not engaged in hostilities or are defenseless". In reference to the attack on the actual kibbutz itself, can anyone explain to me why this wasn't a massacre? Perhaps @Iskandar323 since you seem knowledgeable on the subject? Kibbutz members are not soldiers, and the people who were killed or taken into Gaza were defenseless, making this a massacre.
It's not like Wikipedia does not use loaded language sometimes - the Deir Yassin massacre is named as such because it was indeed a massacre, and so is this. 2A0D:6FC2:4000:6400:8F5F:C8E1:453C:4374 (talk) 21:42, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- We always use non-loaded language unless the loaded language is overwhelmingly present in reliable sources; it's not about consulting the dictionary. As for the details themselves, they remain fuzzy ... it's for instance unclear how many residents may have been killed my militants or potentially by alternative means, such as incidentally by means of crossfire. Short of a full accounting, definitive answers and labels will prove elusive. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- The main article is called Nahal Oz attack. I take it the rationale for that phrasing is that while 12 civilians were killed, or massacred, in the attack, over 60 soldiers were also killed, meaning the attack on the village and its accompanying military base was primarily a military attack with an element of massacre to it. Contrast this to Deir Yassin, where somewhere over 100 civilians were killed in the total absence of a military attack or operation in the immediate vicinity. They aren't really comparable. I originally changed the heading to make it consistent with the main article, but I think the phrasing of the main article makes sense for a number of reasons including the one I spelled out here as well as Iskandar323's. Unbandito (talk) 23:11, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- What happened in the kibbutz itself was a massacre or “had an element of a massacre” as you phrased it. This article is about the kibbutz, not the military base, which is distinct and physically separate from Nahal Oz despite having the same name.
- Just as this article does not discuss the massacre of Be’eri, not being part of the Nahal Oz kibbutz, it should not discuss the massacre in the military base. This was a separate attack in a physically different location.
- And if our discussed topic is solely the attack on the kibbutz, then it’s hard to argue that that was not a massacre. 2A0D:6FC2:4000:6400:989F:3B4E:D5A5:5E43 (talk) 23:25, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- The article Nahal Oz attack covers both the attack on the kibbutz and the military base, which are clearly closely connected. The Be'eri massacre article covers an attack on a sparsely defended town with a similar proportion of civilian casualties to the Deir Yassin massacre. The nomenclature here seems pretty internally consistent to me. Unbandito (talk) 23:51, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
- Also, please be aware that this page falls under WP:ARBPIA restrictions and this contents in particular is off limits to unregistered editors and those with fewer than 500 edits and 30 days' tenure, per the details at WP:ARBECR. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:59, 28 December 2023 (UTC)