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Category:Black British writers

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I don't mean to edit war, but Category:Black British writers seems to be a valid existing Category on Wikipedia, and would be accurate for this article. There was a deletion of Category:British people of Black African descent, but that discussion seemed to be about the use of the word "African". The term "Black" seems to set political correctness radar on edge, but it's a neutral term in Britain as well as among so-called "African Americans" who call themselves Black with pride .. the same PC awkwardness exists with "Native American" vs Indian, most Indians call themselves Indian and prefer it over Native American. Green Cardamom (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The page is already categorized under Category:Somalian novelists, which is a sub-sub-cat of Category:African writers. The term "Black British" typically refers to descendants of West Africans in the New World (the Caribbean mainly), and sometimes also to other Black immigrants from Sub-Saharan Africa, such as Nigerian British people [3]. It does not typically refer to relative newcomers such as Somalis, Eritreans and Ethiopians from the other side of the continent, who in general have a quite different ancestral, biological and cultural background (c.f. [4], [5]). The recently-closed discussion that I linked you to was a general one on the now-deleted Category:British people of Black African descent, where it was decided that a) "Black British" is roughly the British equivalent of "African American" i.e. it is a term generally reserved for New World black people such as Afro-Caribbean British folks; and b) the Category:British people of Somali descent would remain classified under its longstanding parent category Category:British people of African descent, as would other African groups including Category:British people of Eritrean descent and Category:British people of Tunisian descent. That would thus be its parent cat, not Category:Black British or subcats thereof. Also, please note that WP:CATEGRS discourages such subjective cats in the first place: "Ethnic groups are commonly used when categorizing people; however, race is not." Regards, Middayexpress (talk) 19:54, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks Middayexpress for the explanation. Green Cardamom (talk) 22:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
BTW there is overlap between Category:Black British people and Category:British people of African descent, for example Category:British people of Igbo descent can be found in both. Not sure if that's intentional or needs to be fixed. I added a top-hat note in Category:Black British people to help clarify, I hope it's a correct understanding. Green Cardamom (talk) 22:54, 23 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The writer in question, Nadifa Mohamed was interviewed on April 11, 2011, When asked a question about her identity as a 'black' woman,[1] she clearly did not object to be being placed in this category. This makes it absolutely clear, that for the writer, removing her from the category Category: Black British writers would not only be deeply offensive, but result in this Wikipedia article being made to look patently ridiculous. I will restore the category, and include the reference in the body of the article. Ackees (talk) 22:25, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
She is referring to skin color, not to race. This category is also up for deletion here. Middayexpress (talk) 23:06, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Once, twice - If you revert my sourced edit again, then I shall report you for edit warring. I have given you fair warning. Deleting the category will bring Wikipedia into disrepute.Ackees (talk) 23:24, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That interview was already linked to in the article, only with its actual title. Going by WP:CATEGRS, that racial category (and all other ones like it) probably should not even exist in the first place: "Ethnic groups are commonly used when categorizing people; however, race is not." Middayexpress (talk) 23:49, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Middayexpress, Black British is not a 'race'. It is a social identity. Black British as an identity did not arise from a pseudo-scientific 'racial categorisation' process. 'Black British' was not invented by Carlton Coon or Gobineau. Attempts to force black British people (or any black people) into accepting race theories about 'sub-saharan' this, or 'racial bloc' that are doomed to eat the dust of apartheid. I realise that some people (such as the white supremacist segregationist Coon) wanted to impose racial segregationist theories on people from Somalia, Eritrea and Ethiopia. But, Black British is the opposite of that, it is not based on skin colour, genetics, country of origin, language, religion or facial features. It is a fluid, dynamic social identity. I recommend that you read Paul Gilroy, Stuart Hall or Hhomi Bhabba. I hope that has clarified things for you.Ackees (talk) 00:21, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What are you on about? Black British refers mainly to Afro-Caribbeans [6]. Somalis, Ethiopians and Eritreans in general certainly do not identify as such (c.f. [7], [8]). Middayexpress (talk) 11:46, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
When your source, Godfrey Mwakikagile wrote, in 2007, that 'Neither side [Africans or African Americans] have taken strong initiatives to bridge the communication gap or improve relations'[9] he must have been so happy when, the very next year, black Americans overwhelmingly voted for a Presidential candidate whose father was Kenyan. It's as though the whole of black America had read Godfrey's myths and decided to completely disprove them. Of course the difference between Godfey as a source for this subject and Nadifa Mohamed is that Nadifa is a British Somali who publicly identifies as a black woman,[2] whereas Godfrey's 'entertaining' comments about people being rude to each other are completely lacking in sources. But, even if you found a million Somalis who all swore a public oath that they were not 'black' - that still wouldn't undermine the fact that, in Britain, some Somalis do publically identify themselves as black people. Just as some do elsewhere, and have done for a long time. I'm not sure why you keep on refencing the "Moving Here.org.uk" website.[10] Do you realise that its definition of 'Black British' says, "Black British refers broadly to all people of African OR Caribbean descent living in Britain"? And can you not see that this completely opposes your entire argument? I mean, by citing this, you have basically said to the world, 'I am wrong and I am sorry.' Ackees (talk) 17:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Movinghere states that "in the Migration Histories gallery, Black British refers to British descendants of first generation Caribbean migrants[...] where necessary Black British refers broadly to all people of African or Caribbean descent living in Britain, for instance, 'the relationship between Black British people and the police'." In other words, "Black British" as a synonym for people in Britain from both the Caribbean and Africa is an ancillary application of the term; it is not the predominant one. In its primary usage, the term refers to peoples of Afro-Caribbean descent, like I wrote. And yes, I'm fully aware that some Somalis identify as "black", and that this is a minority. Hence, I stated Somalis, Ethiopians and Eritreans in general do not identify as such. Middayexpress (talk) 20:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So, we agree. 'Where necessary', some Somalis (such as Nadifa Mohamed in the sources), Ethiopians and Eritreans sometimes self-identify (and are identified) as black people (whatever that may mean to them). We must not let any obsessive, plantation-era fixation with skin colour, or pseudo-scientific racial theories obscure that complex and intriguing fact. No doubt, when you can find some notable Somalis who are publicly happy to declare themselves 'white', then, by all means - add your reputable WP:CITATION onto their biography pages. Until then, let us try and keep Carlton Coon's segregationist WP:FRINGE theories, and (Godfey Mwakikagile's bizarre rants) out of it.Ackees (talk) 23:11, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What are you on about again? And by the way, that moving here link [11] is not about how Somalis, Ethiopians and Eritreans self-identify. It is about how the term "Black British" later arose in the 1980s to emphasize the political relationship between all ethnic minorities in Britain. It is now mainly used to refer to British nationals descended from first-generation Afro-Caribbean migrants, though the term is sometimes also extended on a political basis to all African or Caribbean immigrants. That generally would not apply to Nadifa or any other Horn Africans. Middayexpress (talk) 18:04, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And, just so we are all crystal clear, here is an interview in which Nadifa Mohamed repeatedly, refers to herself, her family and her community as 'black person', 'black child' 'black guy'. So, can we assume that from now on you will stop trying to delete her from the Category:Black British writers? And, might we also assume that, in the interests of WP:GOODFAITH, you now withdraw your nomination to delete the entire category?Ackees (talk) 00:11, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Nadifa doesn't declare herself to be a "black person" in that Ledge link. She is speaking in that passage in general, speculative terms about the past, a time well before she was born. It's nonetheless an interesting interview since she reveals that she is indeed referring to skin tone when she uses the expression "black" with regard to her dark-skinned father and others. Doesn't really matter, though, because the term "Black British" first and foremost refers to a subset of Afro-Caribbeans. Middayexpress (talk) 18:04, 30 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, she is talking in general terms about all Somalis - starting from a description of her paternal grandmother, and then generalising - "Someone like her could not negotiate with the government. She was the subject of their laws. And that was felt to a certain level in Somaliland and even more strongly outside, in Djibouti, and especially in the Italian Empire - Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, where the rules were very very strict in terms of where you could live… you had to step out of the road if an Italian was coming, you had to call him ‘the Master.’ It was much stricter than apartheid was in South Africa later on. There was a sense that wherever you went as a black person, whether it was Australia - which had a sign saying ‘Welcome to White Australia’ -, whether you went to the US, whether you went to South Africa, whether you went anywhere, this was the way you were meant to be treated. You were second-class." Thus, when Nadifa says 'as a black person' she is acknowledging that all Somalis belonged (and by implication, still belong) to the global social identity 'black'. Contrary to Middayexpress's claim, Nadifa makse a clear distinction between black as a term marking social identity ('a black person') and her father's dark skin. How does she do this? Because she describes her paternal grandmother as 'very yellow skinned' - this is the same woman who was earlier in the interview referred to 'as a black person' (along with Somalis in general, who Nadifa regards as black people - regardless of skin tone). Thus, Nadifa agrees with the widely accepted notion that (as in the case of albinos, Malcolm X, Nelson Mandela and Barak Obama) - the social identity 'black' is not mechanically dependent on one specific skin tone, or one specific genealogy. Thus, Nadifa must continue to be, as is clear from the intended meaning of her statements, included in the canon of CATEGORY:Black British writers. Ackees (talk) 12:09, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nadifa is speculating about how dark complected people in the past were treated. This is something she obviously knows nothing about first-hand, as she was born decades later. The "black person" she refers to in that sentence is not her grandmother specifically, but rather a symbolic figure representing dark complected peoples in general. That is why she says "there was a sense that wherever you went[...] this was the way you were meant to be treated." She also reiterates this theme several other times: "his mother saw his dark skin as a sign of luck, while in the rest of the world it was a sign of something negative, something threatening, something wrong"; "in lots of other places, dark skin signifies a kind of inferiority - in China, India, Sudan, lots of places." At any rate, it doesn't really make a difference since "Black British" first and foremost refers to a subset of Afro-Caribbeans [12]. Middayexpress (talk) 14:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No see Black British. Legally in Britain the term can refer to 3 categories of Black: "Caribbean", "African", and "Other Black". Since there is a legal definition of the term, recommend getting consensus before removing it from the article. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 16:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BURDEN is on the editor who adds or restores material. The census also depends on self-identification, and Somalis generally-speaking do not self-identify as "Black British". "Black British" is mainly used to refer to British nationals descended from first-generation Afro-Caribbean migrants, though the term is sometimes also extended on a political basis to all African or Caribbean immigrants ("Black British refers to British descendants of first generation Caribbean migrants. Where necessary Black British refers broadly to all people of African or Caribbean descent living in Britain, for instance, 'the relationship between Black British people and the police'" [13]). Middayexpress (talk) 16:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, consensus was already established (c.f. [14]). This is why you added the following specification to the Black British people parent category [15]: "This category is for people of Black British decent (see article for specific definition). For other people from Africa who are British, see Category:British people of African descent, such as East and North Africa." Middayexpress (talk) 16:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I did add that top hat note but it wasn't based on anything and was probably a mistake on my part, I don't recall. I don't see consensus for the removal of Cat:Black British. There is too much disagreement about it, on Wikipedia and in the sources. Consensus will need to be achieved through a more formal process. Until then the majority of editors on this page currently believe the cat should stay. To avoid an edit war keep it in place for now and get consensus to remove it, you have removed it from this article at least 5 times, started a CfD to delete the category (which will close either Keep or No Consensus) and I don't know what else. At this point the proper way to handle it is start a formal RfC or some other process, list all the articles it impacts, list what you want to see done and why, then ask people to vote on it. It looks like you want the Black British category to refer only to Carib descent, and have a separate cat for African descent, and maybe a third for other descent (South America, etc). It's unclear what your aim is. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I did remove the category, and the other user re-added it. The difference is that the burden isn't on me to justify its inclusion. I also nominated the category for deletion because WP:CATEGRS disallows such subjective categories in the first place: "Ethnic groups are commonly used when categorizing people; however, race is not." You added that lede to the Black British people category because of the earlier discussion above, where the consensus was explained and you expressed understanding of this. The fact remains that there is already consensus for the categorization of Somalis in Category:British people of African descent [16] ("Somalis: easy, if we decide keep. Categorise them in Category:British people of African descent rather than this sub-category"). Middayexpress (talk) 19:27, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That was consensus for the deletion of a Category, but there was no consensus about how to categorize British of African descent. If you want Africans to be excluded from the Black British category trees, will need to get general consensus. It currently is a source of confusion and would benefit from such a discussion. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 20:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The agreement was that, on the basis of the aforementioned policy clause, all African groups would be moved over to Category:British people of African descent after the sub-category Category:British people of Black African descent was earmarked for deletion. At any rate, I agree that such a category discussion might be of benefit. Middayexpress (talk) 20:58, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The category lede did not reflect the general consensus, as agreed by Middayexpress and sourced from the "Moving Here.org.uk" website.[17] that the term 'Black British' "refers broadly to all people of African OR Caribbean descent living in Britain"? Hopefully, if editors act in WP:GOODFAITH there will not now be an attempt to delete the entire category Black British as part of a wider WP:BATTLEGROUND war...Ackees (talk) 18:15, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In context, Movinghere states that "Black British refers to British descendants of first generation Caribbean migrants." It only then adds the politically-based qualifier that "where necessary Black British refers broadly to all people of African or Caribbean descent living in Britain, for instance, 'the relationship between Black British people and the police'"". So Black British refers first and foremost to a subset of Afro-Caribbeans. The Black British parent category's lede in turn reflects the consensus [18] ("Somalis: easy, if we decide keep. Categorise them in Category:British people of African descent rather than this sub-category"). Middayexpress (talk) 18:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The preceding comment is the opposite of the truth. There is absolutely no mention of the term 'Afro-Caribbean' in the 'moving here.org' glossary at all.[3] So, the claim that 'Black British' in the glossary is a 'subset of Afro-Caribbeans' is pure WP:OR – as is the attempt to establish a distinction between 'politically-based' elements of the definition and some other elements (such as the kind of 'biological race' pseudo-scientific theories held by followers of Carlton Coon). In fact, the glossary only mentions 'race' when discussing criminals, nazis and skinheads. So, it seems logical to assume that all of the glossaries terms are politically or socially based. Ackees (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Movinghere states that "Black British refers to British descendants of first generation Caribbean migrants." The people in their Migrations History gallery are all Afro-Caribbean [19]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:19, 4 December 2012 (UTC)\[reply]
The glossary goes on to say "Where necessary Black British refers broadly to all people of African or Caribbean descent living in Britain." The term Black British has two possible meanings: either exclusive for Carib, or inclusive of all Blacks. It needs to be resolved through consensus because there is no obvious correct answer, there are two possibilities with good (complicated) arguments. We need to pick one for categorization purposes. I suggest start a CfD without nominating anything for deletion (it's Categories for Discussion, not Deletion) and lay it all out, what the issue is and what categories effected. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 17:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Movinghere states that "Black British refers to British descendants of first generation Caribbean migrants." It only later adds the qualifier that "where necessary Black British refers broadly to all people of African or Caribbean descent living in Britain, for instance, 'the relationship between Black British people and the police'"". So Black British refers first and foremost to a subset of Afro-Caribbeans. As I indicated above in response to your suggestion, I agree that such a category discussion might be of benefit (I didn't say deletion, though that too is my prerogative). Middayexpress (talk) 18:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, it also describes the genesis of the distinctive "Black British" identity:
  • "Young Caribbean migrants took advantage of the fact that sport was the one arena where it was possible to compete on equal terms and, from the 1950s onwards, many played a prominent part in Britain's sporting life. Music, on the other hand, presented different opportunities but also problems. In the days before reggae gained general acceptance, young migrants forged their music into a tool of self-expression and used it as a career opportunity. They created their own market for the music which, in turn, gave them a platform from which they influenced British youth culture. In the process, the music created its own market: clubs, small recording companies and, notably, DJs. It was this music culture which helped to create a new, cohesive identity among young migrants, and one which everyone began to recognise as 'Black British'. Jazzy B, for instance, one of the most prominent of recent Black British musicians, went to school in Islington, and spent his spare time learning to be a DJ and creating his own music to give voice to an emerging Black British culture." [20]
  • "In the aftermath of the Second World War, nationalism and the effort of nation building began changing attitudes in the Caribbean. The migrants who arrived in Britain in the post-war years were making their journey at the beginning of a new cultural and political ferment, which was to redefine what it meant to be Caribbean. They brought with them the ideas which were sweeping the Caribbean region and Black communities generally - Black nationalism, a renewed interest in ethnic origins and a new assertiveness about racial justice and equality. These ideas were the basis of new forms of self-expression which new Caribbean migrants began developing in Britain. The result has been a culture which we now call Black British because it draws its identity both from the migrant background and the specific experiences of living in Britain and becoming part of the mix of cultures in the UK." [21] Middayexpress (talk) 18:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Trinidadian/British tailor, Andrew Ramroop OBE calls himself a 'black man' on his website.[22] Yet, his family name, 'Ramroop' is Hindi. [4] This testifies to the fact that in the Caribbean the contemporary identity 'black' includes people with Asian, European and native American heritage - as well as African heritage. Just like in Britain, there is an essential fluidity and hybridity of social identity - rigidly claiming that social identities like 'black', 'Arab', 'white' or 'Asian' are mutually exclusive is pure Jim Crow, apartheid ideology. The moving here glossary is not the ultimate guide for wikipedia. I only cite it in order to clarify misrepresentations of one kind or another. Put it this way, if Somalis, or any other people claim 'European', or 'Asian' ancestry, I do not oppose that. Barak Obama claims black and white heritage. What I do oppose is the Carlton Coon theory that Somalis are some kind of pure 'white race' - or, as one editor has claimed, simply 'Arabs'. Nadifa Mohamed says she and her family (including her paternal grandmother) are black people. She has a right to define her own social identity.Ackees (talk) 21:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No one claimed Somalis are some kind of "pure white race" or "simply Arabs". These are red herrings. Moreover, Nadifa is talking about relative skin tones in that Ledge interview. The "black person" she refers to is not her grandmother specifically, but rather a symbolic figure representing dark complected peoples in general. This has already been explained above, as in the post from 14:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC).

Furthermore, the term "black" in Britain in the past was used as a political label to encompass all ethnic minorities. It is obviously in this manner that Ramroop is employing the term [23].

"Early twentieth-century Britain, indeed, offers compelling evidence of how racial differences were constructed and assigned meaning, and of how these meanings changed. In Britain as in the colonies, the epithet "black," or the more polite "coloured," described Africans and West Indians, South Asians and Arabs[...] while the terms "Arab" and "Somali" were applied with similar imprecision to Sudanese, Adenese, Somalis, Yemenis, Zanzibaris, and Egyptians. This diverse population shared neither physiognomy nor culture they were united by a political and historical relationship of colonial subordination. Thus "Black" was a political label rather than a physical description: the boundary between Black and white was not drawn on the basis of physical appearance, but on relations of power, changing over time and continually contested."

The above does nothing to obscure the fact that the later term "Black British" refers first and foremost to a subset of Afro-Caribbeans. The genesis of the term as described by Movinghere makes this primary meaning very clear. And "African" per the ONS refers in the latest classification to geography, not to race; it thus also includes North Africa in that designation. Middayexpress (talk) 16:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Movinghere is an OK source but it's not perfect or the last word so shouldn't be leaned on too heavily. Certainly use it but these types of debates can have dozens of sources pro and con once its really opened up to wider discussion and research by the community. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 17:48, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reading through this talk page reminds me of just how poisonous Middayexpress was on Wikipedia when it came to articles touching on Black people, especially Somalis. Thank heavens she's now banned off the site!
2406:E003:71B:F601:E0E2:966C:BFCB:73D0 (talk) 03:20, 8 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ [[1]]
  2. ^ [[2]]
  3. ^ http://www.movinghere.org.uk/help/glossary.htm
  4. ^ http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?view=1&surname=ramroop

Awards and acclaims

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The literary section is really nothing more than a list of awards and blurb acclaims. It would be good to have something of substance in terms of literary criticism about her work, so the article doesn't read like a social marketing platform. -- GreenC 22:14, 9 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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