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Talk:Myrrha/GA1

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GA Review

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Reviewer: Wehwalt (talk) 23:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not bad, but needs a little work. I tend to go above and beyond the GA criteria and assume the nominator wants to do the same.

Lede
  • The first paragraph should in a way be the ne plus ultra of compacting information, and should really be about what the article is best known for. I think you are using it to begin the story in the lede. I would modify the prose.
  • The third paragraph has the word "myth" in consecutive sentences, and it's a bit jarring.
Origin
  • "Ezekiel notes seeing the cult of Adonis in Jerusalem" Perhaps "writes of". I'm a bit unhappy with this given the uncertainty of who wrote any Biblical book. I would rephrase to state that it is mentioned in the Book of Ezekiel. And you never know when you may get religious zealots overrunning your page.
  • "Myrrha, the girl," Perhaps better, "woman".
  • No, what made the story so horrifying was an (to us) underage girl falling in love with and seducing her father without his knowing. I wouldn't call her a woman, since none of the sources of the myth (Ovid, Hyginus, Liberalis, and Apollodorus) does. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ovid's version
  • "Published in 8 A.D." We know this to the exact year? Amazing.
  • "was ahead of its time " Why?
  • Stylistically, it was written more like a modern psychological novel which made it stand apart (according to the Doll-paper). I wrote it in the intro to the summary but TCO wanted it to be shorter so I cut it. Don't really know how/where to put it in. Mottenen (talk) 12:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "showed how Ovid was more interested" Perhaps "showed that"? It needs to be changed, either way.
  • "questioning how the laws interfered " In what?
  • "macho". I think that if this is a direct quote, show that it is. If it isn't, perhaps change the word to something less ... macho.
  • "The narrator in Metamorphoses ". I would reverse this and say Metamorhoses is not narrated by Ovid, but rather by ...
  • Orpheus sentence: Variations on "sing" are used 3 times in sentence. Can this be adjusted?
  • Okay I'll try.
  • "Cenchreis" If in your view this character is so minor in mythology that there will never be an article about her because she's just a name, then I'd unlink this. Otherwise, fine.
  • I'm not certain you need to constantly remind the reader that Ovid is telling us this or that (isn't it really Orpheus btw?)
  • "crime"? or sin?
  • "One night when everyone was asleep" Perhaps better, "the household was asleep".
  • "and escaped due to the darkness of the night". "escaped in the dark" (or night).
Other versions
  • " All three differ greatly from one another" Perhaps, All three versions differ greatly
  • "accounts for three possible parentages for Adonis" I don't understand this fully, perhaps "tells of three possible ..."?
  • "the myth takes place" "is set"
  • "She had devised many tricks in order to delay her parents" Perhaps "her parents' marital plans for her". This whole sentence seems a bit florid. You say she devised many tricks because she was being driven mad with longing.
Interpretation
  • " has been interpreted with various conclusions" Perhaps, "has been interpreted in various ways" or "has been the subject of a number of interpretations".
  • Second paragraph, first sentence needs rewriting.
  • "Myrrha is then made into a woman in the grip of an uncontrollable lust" Really, isn't this just repeating the first part of the sentence?
  • "It has been argued that incest being a taboo marks the difference between culture and nature. " How about "Smith-Jones (whoever) has argued that the incest taboo is fundamental to a civilized society."
  • "When the poor girl has been gripped and consumed by the irresistible desire," POV.
  • "she laments that she is not born as an animal, because then there would be no problem with her having intercourse with her father - on the contrary actually, since in the animal kingdom it is not uncommon that horses, goats, birds etc. take their daughters as mates." How about "she laments her humanity, for if she and her father were animals, there would be no bar to their union." I think the reader will know that animals commonly mate with relatives.
  • "interpreted as an indirect attribute of Adonis." Perhaps "to be influcences on the character of Adonis"?
  • "2 goddesses" Two.
  • " In Ancient Greece" Link?
  • I don't think we need the full title of Doll's work. Just summarize.
  • "Doll suggests that both Ovid and Proulx' " I think Ovid needs a 's, but am not positive.
  • Putting a one sentence blockquote out there is sort of POV, it means you are really emphasizing that statement. I would drop it back into the text.
  • I would move the discussion of Orpheus back to your other mention of him and his songs.
  • The Guardian needs to be italicized, and check that article to make sure you are italicizing the proper word or words.
Dryden
  • I would move this section into Cultural Impact, and surely it can be divided into paragraphs?
  • I would like to leave it in interpretation. It is an interpretation of a translation. IF I was to move it, should it be merged into the bottom or the middle? Dividing into paragraphs, addressed. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dryden's conversion to Catholicism have anything to do with it?
Cultural influences
  • Why does Myrrha having rabies mean her most serious (not "biggest"!) sin was deceit? Also avoid "This means".
  • Sorry, I'm a foreign, wrong word :) reworded it and added note explaining. Note that using "sin" here is okay because it's Dante and his Christian interpretation, not the Greeks' understanding of her "wrong-doing", if you get me. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe essays have titles in quotation marks, not italics
  • "In 1997 the myth of Myrrha and Cinyras was one of just 24 tales" Strike "just"
  • "The work as a whole " Split sentence.
  • "back in his days" Suggest substituting a phrase involving the word "contemporary"
  • "The score was aimed at generating tension," Not certain what this means. I would go over this sentence very carefully, anyway.
  • "In more recent times, Kristen Kuster has created" I'd say "More recently, Kristen Kuster created"
  • "the illustration of Myrrha by Doré featured in Dante's Divine Comedy." Perhaps "Dore's illustration of the legend of Myrrha for the Divine Comedy". No need to mention Dante.
  • "represented" "Depicted"?
  • Can you tell us why any of the insects and so forth are named for her?

I'll give it another read when you've gone through these.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:29, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome go through, WW. Very obvious that you parsed it.
  • I'm the source of the Myrrha "the girl" as I think she is under 18 in the story, and the term is more piquant (has an edge to it) more than the tendancy to call all 12+ females women. But I don't care. Besides, I called Suzy a whore.
  • Agreed on the article reading too much like independent Dante interpretation. Either we need to cite someone making that point or perhaps, describe it by facts without an assertion. For instance "Dante places Myrrha in the 10 (lowest) circle, that of liars, rather than the 2nd (less sinful) circle, that of sexual deviants." And it's how deep she is in Hell, that is the telling thing. Not the rabies (that's just how punished).
  • For the insects, the biology crew should take care of this for Mottenen and there will be something interesting after we look at the inital papers where the things are named. We just haven't done it. But it's just some grunt work, can be done. TCO (talk) 04:31, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed and gone through all of it now I think. Mottenen (talk) 17:16, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not to butt in, but in reference to Mottenen's question about spelling numbers versus displaying them as figures: the MOS recommends spelling the numbers if they can be rendered in one or two syllables (five, six, seven, twelve, nineteen etc.), but using figures when the number is higher (85, 1,935). Obviously, figures should be used when rendering years and in infoboxes and tables where there is little room.-RHM22 (talk) 23:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, should probably read the whole MoS at some time soon :) just couldn't really get myself together to do it when I hadn't even written a GA yet. Thanks for clarifying RHM22. Regards, Mottenen (talk) 23:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've never read the whole thing. If I did, by the time I got back to the beginning, it would have changed. Anyway, I'm going to pass the article. I think the prose can be improved, and I urge an outside copyedit if you plan to try to advance this article further. Formality of language is a harped-upon thing here on wiki. Good luck!--Wehwalt (talk) 02:12, 17 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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