Talk:Mustafa Wahbi Tal

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 20:28, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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Mustafa Wahbi Tal late 1920s, colorized

• ... that Mustafa Wahbi Tal (pictured), Jordan's most prominent poet, was arrested in 1926 and charged with raising the Bolshevik sign, getting drunk in a public bar and insulting the Emir, the Prime Minister and the government?
  • ALT1: ... that Mustafa Wahbi Tal (pictured), Jordan's most prominent poet, was arrested in 1926 and charged with raising the Bolshevik sign, getting drunk in a public bar and reciting a poem that insulted the Emir, the Prime Minister and the government?
  • ALT2: ... that Mustafa Wahbi Tal (pictured), Jordan's most prominent poet, was arrested in 1926 and charged with raising the Bolshevik sign, getting drunk in a bar and publicly reciting a poem that insulted the Emir and his Prime Minister?
  • ALT3: ... that Mustafa Wahbi Tal (pictured), Jordan's most prominent poet, was arrested in 1926 and charged with raising the Bolshevik sign, getting drunk in a bar and publicly reciting a poem that insulted the Emir?
  • ALT4: ... that Mustafa Wahbi Tal (pictured), Jordan's most prominent poet, was arrested in 1926 for raising the Bolshevik sign, getting drunk in a bar and publicly reciting a poem that insulted the Emir?

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Plague of Amwas
• Comment: Source. This hook should be preferably published on 24 May, the poet's death anniversary.

5x expanded by Makeandtoss (talk). Self-nominated at 20:33, 13 April 2020 (UTC).

• @Makeandtoss: A great read about an enigmatic figure. Article was more than sufficiently expanded within 7 days from the nomination, fully cited to RS and QPQ is done. The hook is interesting and cited but too wordy—maybe trim “public” and “and the government” as these are redundant. There are some prose issues that need to be fixed before this appears on the Main page. The big ones are the frequent usage of present tense (‘is’) instead of past tense (‘was’) and the lack of attribution for quotations and opinions. Tomorrow, I could list the specific examples here or on the talk page if you’d prefer. Al Ameer (talk) 00:37, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: I edited the hook and fixed some unattributed quotations. Preferably let's discuss the edits on the article's talk page. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:07, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: Actually, I did some copyediting and it looks like you take care of some of the issues that I raised above. Only thing is 1) you need to attribute the "blasphemously stubborn" quote to its author, 2) sort out the discrepancy with the publishing years for the Susser and Massad sources and 3) perhaps relocate the first mention of his pen name "Arar" in the article's introductory sentence and make it bold. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

The current hook, at 218 characters, is too long. The maximum allowed is 200. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 21:31, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Thank you for reviewing, I edited the article accordingly. The hook is supposedly too long; has 18 extra characters. Do you think we should remove the "and his Prime Minister"? Or is there another way to shorten it? On another irrelevant note, it feels weird that five years have passed since we worked on getting Amman to GA status. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: Shaving the Prime Minister part would work and actually makes the hook read better. You should also link Emir. And we should not let another 5 years pass before our next collaboration! Lately my focus has been on the Umayyads and that general period, but for years I’ve been meaning to reach out to you so we could revamp Wikipedia’s coverage of Jordan’s geography—it’s sorely lacking regarding the country’s smaller cities, villages, landforms, and geographic areas (the Balqa, Jabal Ajlun, etc.) I hope we both could find the time to work on this area. Al Ameer (talk) 00:05, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: Done. And yes it is surely lacking, I got plenty of time these days so whenever you feel you need a change just let me know. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:59, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Oops apparently also with that removal, the hook stays at 206 characters. I have removed "and charged with" replaced it with "was arrested for".Makeandtoss (talk) 10:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Al Ameer son: GTG? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:54, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

The hook is now 182 characters. Thanks for trimming it (which, I believe, also improved it). MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 17:53, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this nomination is good to go. —Al Ameer (talk) 14:02, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

• @Al Ameer son: and @Makeandtoss: I came by to promote this and was at a loss to follow the discussion when only one hook, edited numerous times, appeared at the top. I have restored the thread and struck the unacceptable hooks. In future, please add new alts to the post rather than re-editing the same hook over and over again. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 17:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

• The hook says one of the things he was arrested for was reciting a poem in public, but the article says it was for having written a poem insulting the Emir. Which is it? Yoninah (talk) 17:37, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Yoninah: Thanks for fixing the alts, will take that into consideration next time. It's actually reciting, I just changed from "written" to "recited" in the article.Makeandtoss (talk) 21:07, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Makeandtoss: thank you. I was also wondering why the whole sentence is in quotes. Is it really an exact quote? (In that case, we might have to add quotes to the hook.) But it seems to me that you could paraphrase a little and get rid of the quotes. Yoninah (talk) 21:59, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Yoninah: I removed the quotes if that is satisfactory. I was wondering if the poet's picture will be used on the main page? Makeandtoss (talk) 22:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Makeandtoss: yes, I would like to use the picture. But please tell me, as I don't read Arabic, what exactly was going on with that quote? Is it an exact quote or not? Yoninah (talk) 00:47, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

• Yoninah, I'm troubled by this as well: when Makeandtoss first expanded the article on April 13, that sentence was there as a quote, which should have meant that it was an exact translation of the original Arabic, or the best translation that could be done. Changing "written" to "recited" today would seem to be a major shift in meaning. Google translate's rendering of the sentence in English is so problematic that it's barely helpful, though if lengthening of the tongue to His Highness the Amir implies "reciting" rather than "written", then perhaps the original translation needed further work. Makeandtoss, we really need to know the background here, and whether the quoted text was a reasonably accurate translation to start with. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: @Yoninah:, here is the excrept from the article:

“عُيَّن عرار مدرسًا في مدرسة عمّان في تشرين الثاني 1926. وقبل أن يكمل شهرين اعتقل مجددًا وكفت يده عن العمل بتهم: رفع شارة البلشفية، والسكر في حانة عامّة، ونظم قصيدة تضمنت إطالة اللسان على سمو الأمير وفخامة رئيس النظار وحكومته والقانون على ملأ من الناس.” Literal exact translation: “Arar was appointed as teacher in an Amman school in November 1926. Before completing two months, he was arrested again, laid off work and accused of: raising the Bolshevik sign, getting drunk in a public bar and organizing a poem that included raising the tongue on his highness the Emir, the Prime Minister, his government and the law in front of people”.

“Organizing” can only mean that he recited it in front of people, it could also mean he wrote and recited it but that’s also the same thing. There’s no quotation in the article, they just named the charges. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:19, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Makeandtoss: we really need to promote this already if it's going to make the main page for the requested date. The issue is not whether this phrase is quoted in the source, it's whether the wording used on the (English) article copies the source. If it doesn't it doesn't need to be in quotes. Based on your translation above, I suggest rewriting both the article and the hook this way:
• Article: He was arrested again on the charges of displaying the Bolshevik sign, becoming inebriated in a public bar, and publicly reading a poem that insulted the Emir, the Prime Minister, and the law.
• ALT5 hook: ... that Mustafa Wahbi Tal (pictured), Jordan's most prominent poet, was arrested in 1926 for displaying the Bolshevik sign, becoming inebriated in a public bar, and publicly reading a poem that insulted the Emir? Yoninah (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

• ALT6 hook: ... that Mustafa Wahbi Tal (pictured), Jordan's most prominent poet, was arrested in 1926 for displaying the Bolshevik sign, getting drunk in a bar, and publicly reciting a poem that insulted the Emir?

@Yoninah: Arabic is a very different language so although I might have translated it literally, it cannot be the same thing. I tweaked the hook a little bit and I hope that you find it suitable now. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:24, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Makeandtoss: thank you. But that part about a "Bolshevik sign" doesn't make sense. I Google Translated it and it came out as "emblem". You could also say "insignia" or "banner". Yoninah (talk) 19:26, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Yoninah: We can perhaps link the Hammer and sickle? The wiki article calls its "symbol", but "emblem" is probably more logical.Makeandtoss (talk) 19:32, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

• Good idea. I will edit the article text linking emblem to Hammer and sickle, and promote the hook. Restoring tick per Al Ameer son's review. Thanks for your assistance, Yoninah (talk) 20:23, 21 May 2020 (UTC)