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Best of Portland 2022

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---Another Believer (Talk) 13:33, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CIMSMUSIC

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That source is essentially written off of the owner/manager's own words and using their words to justify inclusion for something beyond basic facts, such as verifying when it opened is undue and lending too much weigh to someone associated with the business to control contents within the article. Wikipedia articles should be based on independent secondary sources. Graywalls (talk) 14:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC) @Constablequackers:. Graywalls (talk) 15:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not you like the contents of the article or how it was written, that's irrelevant and you're being subjective. It is an independent secondary source. Constablequackers (talk) 09:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Constablequackers:, It is written with a great deal of direct quotations of the manager, which means it isn't independent secondary. Also, a mention of membership in an organization that cites the organization itself does not convey significance. If The Oregonian, or The New York Times were to say Music Millenium is a member of CIMSMUSIC, that would lend significance in favor of inclusion. But to say so and so is a member of some obscure organization (cited reference: the obscure organization itsef) makes it undue. I'll see if @MER-C:, could comment as I think they maybe able to explain this better than I can. I am only pinging him as I seem to remember he participated on similar discussion elsewhere on Wiki discussion pages. Graywalls (talk) 22:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, fair enough. Let's see what they have to say. The stories about The Smashing Pumpkins and other bands that did in store appearances are pretty great and, IMO, they're a big part of what has made MM unique as far as record stores go. Constablequackers (talk) 12:27, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If there's INDEPENDENT source not greatly reliant on employees/owners of Music Millenium that gets into this discussion on a platform beyond weekly tabloid press, it could merit inclusion. Graywalls (talk) 15:44, 10 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For lack of consensus and in light of what I have just discovered here, I am removing Coalition of Independent Music Stores source. Per https://www.opb.org/article/2022/04/23/portland-record-store-helped-launch-a-vinyl-renaissance/ Terry Currier owns and operates Music Millennium in Northeast Portland. The iconic record store opened more than fifty years ago. Currier says he started the Coalition of Independent Music Stores in 1995 to promote locally-owned record stores.. So, it completely fails independent secondary criteria. Graywalls (talk) 18:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with the removal. MER-C 18:03, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Constablequackers:, I am troubled by this restoration which exhibits your pattern of waiting out a few months and over-riding with the version you prefer without further discussion from where you left off despite the fact you're aware of it as shown above. This edit is contentious, because the content has been challenged; and what you've added back is based on a source authored by and self-published by business' owner Terry Currier. This raises the question of NPOV and due weight, as writing from contents published by the business has tendency to emphasize and amplify things presumably wanted to be emphasized by the article subject business. Graywalls (talk) 19:40, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Coming back around to this. Added information about the in store performances without the disputed CIMS link with an additional citation. Will grab a few more and add them in the days to come. Constablequackers (talk) 09:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I question the necessity to include more or less the same material which you've been persistently trying to re-introduce. The content being questioned is the name drops of various people who have performed in store whose presence have not been discussed in the context of Music Millennium. Performers perform and they have to do so at some place. which is of questionable encyclopedic merit.
There's a strong enough connection to include Portland Timbers into Providence Park because, it's their long term home base with proper sources to verify this, however adding name checks of notable people who have at one time played at Providence Park would be massively undue.
Graywalls (talk) 17:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that argument holds water. There are many, many, many pages on Wikipedia that focus on venues, shops, and other organizations that contain lists of famous actors, musical acts, and others who have graced their stages/spaces. The page for Carnegie Hall is just one such example. Oh, and another one? Providence Park! It has an extensive list of concerts that have taken place there over the years. Perhaps you overlooked this? Constablequackers (talk) 12:30, 24 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I would totally supporting pruning a lot of it. Graywalls (talk) 07:20, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain why you added back trivia like customer appreciation barbecue while removing something they're actually known for, such as summary of precedent setting lawsuit. Graywalls (talk) 07:24, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you really have an issue with Wikipedia pages that focus on venues including their most famous performances...well, you've got an awful lot of "pruning" to do in the coming days. Perhaps you could begin with Providence Park and work your way east across the venues scattered across the continental US, concluding with Carnegie Hall in NYC? Constablequackers (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neither you or I want to wind up in an edit war over a Wikipedia page about a record store (I think/hope at least). You undid several hours of work from earlier this week and for reasons that can only be described as dubious at best. You know the citations I gathered are *not* blogs as well as I do. Furthermore, I did not remove anything about the lawsuit. The rundown within the history section was moved to place it in chronological order with other events. Your section about it was and still is in place. While you can quibble about the annual BBQ, I assure you MM is better known for its in-store performances, its role in making that commonplace at other stores across the US and elsewhere, its role in the formation of Record Store Day and so on than the lawsuit. By what metric, going forward, would you like to assess what MM is best known for and what to include and not include in this article? Because blatantly false declarations that the Mercury, Oregonian, and Willamette are blogs are, it should go without saying, completely unacceptable. Constablequackers (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One last thing: a few of the citations I included are ones you added into the "possible sources" discussion below. Uhh....whu?!!! So, on one hand, you say they're unacceptable and the next you include them below. Could you please explain your rationale? Constablequackers (talk) 13:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The possible sources are something I'm jotting down as I come across. I'm not recommending them or that things like name drop should be included. Editors' personal knowledge about things/places should not be the basis for inclusion. I assure you MM is better known for its in-store performances, its role in making that commonplace at other stores across the US and elsewhere, its role in the formation of Record Store Day and so on than the lawsuit., what sources back this up? The lawsuit, which set precedent for e-commerce and was even covered in ABA journal. Graywalls (talk) 15:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've requested additional inputs from other editors at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Companies Graywalls (talk) 21:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, you've been all over the place with your latest round of edits and efforts to remove the content I added last week. These additions are backed with valid citations. I really, really do not understand the problem here, especially the content involving the Garth Brooks dispute and its role in the eventual formation of the long-running and still ongoing Record Store Day, which continues *worldwide*. Constablequackers (talk) 12:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Constablequackers:, still waiting on sources supporting the claim of supposedly higher relative importance of "record store days" compared to precedent setting dismissed lawsuit. Graywalls (talk) 03:06, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll also put in a request for input from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Oregon. Constablequackers (talk) 13:32, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you willfully ignoring WP:ONUS? Please stop adding back contents under dispute "until consensus is reached". It remains OUT until then. I have removed the material you've added back. The comment about Currier day by mayor Wheeler is WP:TRIVIA and much of that PDXMonthly article is based on Currier's own words, i.e. not independent. I went and sought outside input to try to reach consensus, so I don't see why you keep re-adding contents. Graywalls (talk) 03:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Still waiting for input from other editors. I'll comment on this further when/if they offer their views. Constablequackers (talk) 13:57, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to non-neutrally phrased request at WP:OREGON

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@Constablequackers: - WRT Garth Brooks, I inserted an alternate version, however you you reverted back to your preferred version, which adds back name dropping "It was attended by journalists from the Wall Street Journal, People Magazine, and Billboard Magazine along with members of Portland media.", which I find to be unnecessary. I'm suggesting we leave that section out until the details can be hashed out in talk.

What I called out as blog was one of the source being a website dailyringblog.com in this removal. Although MTV was sourced too, this content basically amounted to another name drop. I am also going to point out that you waited out a few months, came back and re-inserted disputed contents referencing Currier's own CIMSMUSIC and a music distributor run BLOG even after both myself and MER-C agreed it should be omitted. You did so without having engaged in any discussion. Graywalls (talk) 15:47, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Millennium Enterprises, Inc. v. Millennium Music, L.P

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Probably best to take this section out since it arguably qualifies as WP:TRIVIA and the sources cited were obscure legal texts, journals, etc. Guess it will have to stay out until consensus is reached on this as well. Constablequackers (talk) 13:55, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's arguably, WP:CENSOR, given that ABA is not some "obscure" publication as you made it out to be in the edit summary. I've noticed you tend to remove unflattering things, so it appears to be possible attempt to white wash. At the same time, you're trying to include things like "customer appreciation barbecue". Graywalls (talk) 15:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Constablequackers:, thank you for your concerns. I have posted a request for input to Wikiproject Law Graywalls (talk) 17:08, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

possible sources

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https://www.oregonlive.com/carlin/2010/12/terry_currier_and_music_millennium_the_growth_and_near-death_of_a_portland_icon.html https://web.archive.org/web/20170424235719/https://www.wweek.com/music/2017/04/20/how-a-portland-record-stores-feud-with-garth-brooks-helped-create-record-store-day/ Graywalls (talk) 22:52, 3 October 2023 (UTC) https://www.deseret.com/1993/8/13/19060877/garth-brooks-hasn-t-thrown-in-the-hat-on-used-cd-controversy Graywalls (talk) 07:50, 26 July 2024 (UTC) https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publications/blt/1999/07/full-issue-199907.pdf Graywalls (talk) 15:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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