Talk:Fremantle Arts Centre

A fact from Fremantle Arts Centre appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 16 July 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Fremantle Arts Centre (pictured) was originally known as the Fremantle Lunatic Asylum and was built between 1861 and 1868 by British convicts?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/July.

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earlier unsigned anonymous comment

A citation about ghosts and its high ranking ghostly status from "haunted.com.au", needs a reality check —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.89.189.114 (talk) 02:27, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ghost Facts

The information on the Wiki page is unverified - citing only a bootleg ghost hunter's website as a source.

The centre has a social history of ghosts, that is, there are rumours circulating about ghosts of convicts from the building's historical uses, but there is no factual information available about ghosts on the site.

I don't think it should be featured on the page.

FremantleArtsCentre (talk) 04:50, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then get a source from a 'genuine ghost hunter', the fact is those rumours are around. cygnis insignis 10:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

++

Issues tag

It needs sources or references that appear in third-party publications. Tagged since January 2011.

done

Its quality may be compromised by peacock terms. Tagged since January 2011.

Fix whichever sentence troubles you, I don't see it.

It is written like an advertisement and needs to be rewritten from a neutral point of view. Tagged since January 2011.

ditto

It may have been edited by a person who has a conflict of interest with the subject matter. Tagged since January 2011.

see above, they appear to be a new editor and their contribution was to remove fact with a citation. cygnis insignis 10:11, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Use by the US Navy during WWII

(Just thought I'd note this down here, for future reference; I've been looking for photos of the site in the '40s.) According to her oral history in Wharf Rats and Other Stories (ed. Karen Lang & Jan Newman), Elizabeth Grose's brother William Farmer was the foreman at 'Receiving Barracks, Navy 137' (as the US Navy then called it). — Sam Wilson ( Talk • Contribs ) … 08:35, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Museum and Arts Centre, Fremantle

I don't think the building or the origanisation have ever been known as 'Museum and Arts Centre, Fremantle'. It was the museum, and now it's the arts centre; unifiying these names seems unusual. @Skyerise: Where did you find this new title? Sam Wilson 04:27, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's the official name on the official listing on the Heritage Council website. Skyerise (talk) 10:11, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The infobox and the bulk of the article are about the building and its history, not the current business that occupies the historical building. The little material on that business was both unsourced and promotional. "Fremont Arts Centre" is a business that is currently located in this historical building. It is NOT the WP:COMMONNAME of the building itself. Skyerise (talk) 11:15, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Skyerise:

incorrect

the same official page indicates very clearly the issue:

Location Details    
The place is currently known as Fremantle Arts Centre.

also a close check of the usual Australian central point of information,

https://trove.nla.gov.au/search?keyword=fremantle%20arts%20centre

Trove has a much larger selection of usage of the name

compared to the usage offered on the Heritage Council inherit list which is found at https://trove.nla.gov.au/?keyword=museum%20and%20arts%20centre%20fremantle

The problem is to argue that an official name of official listing is the necessary connection for a title, is a serious misunderstanding of how Western Australian heritage locations are listed in some torturous ways against common usages.

If there is any need for further explanation of the trap of bizarre pseudo official names, they can be provided. JarrahTree 11:58, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move. Overwhelming support for move back to Fremantle Arts Centre, concensus should now prevent move warring. (non-admin closure) A y d o h 8 ( t a l k ) 04:20, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Museum and Arts Centre, Fremantle → Fremantle Arts Centre – The article was moved to 'Musuem and Arts Centre, Fremantle', without any prior discussion or debate, when that change was reverted, as it was identified as a controversial move, the original mover changed it back, contrary to the provisions of WP:BOLDMOVE. As a result I am now initiating a WP:RMCM process. The reason for reverting the article title back to its original title is as per WP:COMMONNAME this is the name that the building is known by. The owners of the building, Fremantle City Council, have called this building and complex, the Fremantle Arts Centre for the last two decades.[1] All the signage on the building and directional signage to the building states 'Fremantle Arts Centre'. A google search indicates that it is the name that the building is most commonly known by. Also there has not been a museum in the building for the last two decades, since the Maritime Museum moved to the Fremantle West End. Dan arndt (talk) 04:45, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Support, see my comments in previous section about official name(s) and the irrelevance of such items. Also in the Heritage listing, there is a specific statement as to what the location is known as. JarrahTree 04:57, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose, the article is about an historical building and the current title is the official name on the Heritage records. It is not about the business that currently occupies the building. That business already has one article at Fremantle Press. Clearly the notable business Fremantle Arts Centre should have an article, but it is not the same as the building and should be at the current redirect. Skyerise (talk) 11:05, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: There is an article about the business at the redirect target. Fremantle Arts Centre. Skyerise (talk) 11:50, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Which you just created as a content fork and I just reverted. Don't destabilise things further. The passive voice is great for not claiming responsibility ... Graham87 12:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a content fork. Nothing in the new article was ever in the article about the building, and isn't now. It's brand new material I spent over an hour writing. There is a building, and there is an organisation. They are not the same thing, so one can't be a fork of the other. Skyerise (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the common name criterion and the fact that none of the criteria about the allegedly official name are met. Graham87 12:04, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What you are claiming is the WP:COMMONNAME of the building is actually the common name of the organisation currently housed in the building. I know it's confusing, both to you and the readers. Which is what I have been trying to correct. The building is historic, it dates to 1860s; the organisation is modern, it dates to 1973. They are not the same thing and the move request is based on the mistaken assumption that they are the same thing. Skyerise (talk) 12:31, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's based on the fact that they're conflated in the real world so much that they are for all intents and purposes treated as the same thing ... except by the state heritage source, which has its own reasons. Re the other proposal: I'll let my lack of direct comment on it speak for itself. Graham87 13:13, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The building is known as the Fremantle Arts Centre, the owner of the building, the Fremantle City Council have adopted two conservation management plans for the buildings (one in 2001 and one in 2021) - clearly you do not create a conservation management plan for an organisation. Dan arndt (talk) 05:42, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Also note this relevant ANI discussion, which has cooled down now. Graham87 18:52, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Alternate proposal: move to Fremantle Lunatic Asylum, the building's original name. Skyerise (talk) 12:51, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reject alternative, that was one of the building's former names but it isn't the current name, or the name that it is most commonly known as. Dan arndt (talk) 13:25, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reject alternative, as its a discontinue offensive term for people with mental Illness, it is not common name used reference to site now due to this language. Gnan garra 13:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. The common name that is in widespread use is definitely 'Fremantle Arts Centre', and other than the SHO I haven't been able to find anyone calling it the 'Museum and Arts Centre, Fremantle'. It seems that a change like this should be supported by more than just once source. Sam Wilson 06:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support – The building is the centre, and the organisation is obviously named after the building in which it is (currently) located, presumably due to lack of imagination and creativity 😛. In addition, definition three of "centre" in my dictionary is a building or building complex which houses a number of related specified services: a shopping centre; a sports centre; a medical centre, and none of the others apply (as I interpret them) to the organisation in question here. I very much agree with splitting the article though, and am grateful that Skyerise took the time to do the research and contributed material while all the other Wikipedians here took the time and cared enough, and continue to do so, to integrate it. Still, large changes can be, and have been made without such kerfuffle, for example by taking it slowly and/or explaining the intent beforehand thus inviting collaboration, and listening to and working with those that have curated these pages for many years in some cases. Betterkeks (talk) 06:16, 2 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Fremantle Arts Centre is the commons name for the building, it hasnt had a museum there for about 10 years, when the migrant museum was removed. Gnan garra 13:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: If these separate discussions haven't been linked here yet, for further clarity, please also see a related requested move, Talk:Fremantle Arts Centre (organisation)#Organisation or place? and a relevant WikiProject Australia discussion. Fork99 (talk) 20:09, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And the discussion below this move request as well. Fork99 (talk) 20:14, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Query

Does anyone have any objection to my making Fremantle Arts Centre a disambiguation page pending the conclusion of the move request? Skyerise (talk) 16:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I for one object ... it would require lots of link-fixing that might all be for nought. Graham87 17:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't there bots that take care of that? That's a rhetorical question: yes, there are. Skyerise (talk) 17:41, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, there aren't, because this process can't be fully automated; see Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation/Fixing a page. While there are tools that make disambiguation link fixing relatively efficient, the human editors behind the disambig link fixing project wouldn't appreciate link-fixing that turns out to be useless. Graham87 18:54, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I'll leave it alone. Skyerise (talk) 18:56, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add on a little more, yes AWB could help or I believe DisambigAssist as well. However I don't think it should be done especially seeing how contentious the proposed move is with the ANI discussion and everything. It just seems like it might create a bigger mess with more possible edit warring. But I also agree with Graham based on content-based reasoning which I might elaborate on in the respective move proposals. Fork99 (talk) 19:15, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]