Talk:Murigen

Murigen/Muirgen

Is this just a misspelling/variant spelling of Muirgen (Lí Ban)?

For Murigen, there are almost no sources. The oldest one I can find is Dictionary of Non-Classical Mythology by Egerton Sykes (1952). The modern reprint Who’s Who in Non-Classical Mythology is cited in this article. According to the tiny entry in that encyclopedia, Murigen is an “Irish lake goddess, possibly the same as Morgan, the subject of a legend of a minor deluge, and who was afterwards changed into a salmon." It gives no source, but the story is clearly that of Lí Ban/Muirgen. This seems like a case of a transposed letter to me. Sgallison (talk) 23:15, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Interestly there is the story of Muirgen, also known as Li Ban (Beauty of Women). According to story, she lived for three hundred years in the waters of Lough Neagh until she was captured by Beoan, St Comgall's fisherman. Comgall baptised her, she told him her adventures, died and went heaven. (source: Irish Names by O Corrain and Maguire)

I read mention that the story was a corrpution of a story of a Monk called Muireacain who drowned. The surname of O Muireagain is anglized in one form as Morigan.

PROD removed

PROD concern: "Doesn't meet Wikipedia:Notability guidelines. Only a handful of books mention a goddess Murigen, and the oldest (Dictionary of Non-Classical Mythology by Egerton Sykes) is from 1952. In addition, Murigen’s description in the dictionary is identical to the story of Muirgen, an alternate name for Lí Ban (mermaid)." I'm removing the PROD for several reasons: one is that "Only a handful of books" is probably enough to meet WP:GNG (and I find one from 1939, Iranian & Indian Analogues of the Legend of the Holy Grail [1], which presumably means there are older sources). Another reason is that, if Murigen is indeed the same as Lí Ban, it may be useful to redirect the former to the latter, rather than just deleting it completely. RebeccaGreen (talk) 01:07, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I suggested deletion. Thank you for finding that source - I missed that. According to that,

King Arthur's Avalon too is a land " overseas," and, according to Geoffrey of Monmouth, he is taken there by Merlin and Taliessin together with a steersman, Barinthus, who is supposed to represent the sea-god Manawyddan (E. K. Chambers, Arthur of Britain, pp. 218-222). He is there to be cured by Murigen--a name of which the etymology is Murigena (or the sea-born).

The author then moves to the Lady of the Lake, and I'm not sure whether they give another source for Murigen. (I'm using Google Books' snippet view.) I do know that Geoffrey of Monmouth's Vita Merlini refers to Morgen, not Murigen. Chambers' Arthur of Britain [2], published in 1927, also says Morgen and adds,

Morgen’s name has also been matter for controversy. It has been compared with that of the Irish war goddess Morrigan, but there is nothing bellicose about Geoffrey’s Morgen. Professor Rhys is happier here with the analogy of Muirgein, given as a baptismal name to the mermaid Liban in an Irish story. It would mean Muri-gena, ‘the sea-born.’ (p. 220)

So as far as I can see, Iranian & Indian Analogues doesn't reflect either Monmouth or Chambers in giving Murigen as the healer of King Arthur.

On the other hand, Chambers is referencing John Rhys' Celtic folklore, Welsh and Manx (1901) [[3]]:

[Morgan's] oldest recorded form was Morgen, and meant sea-born, or offspring of the sea. In a still earlier form it must have been Morigenos, with a feminine Morigena, but when the endings came to be dropped both vocables would become Morgen, later Morien ... we have it in Irish as Muirgen, one of the names of the lake lady Liban[.]" (p. 373)

I'd support a merge/redirect to Lí Ban. Sgallison (talk) 21:01, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: Thanks for your reply and thoughts. I've been looking at the articles on Morgen (mythological creature), Morgan le Fay, and Lí Ban, to which the 'muirgen' in the Morgan le Fay etymology section is linked ("a cognate form in Old Irish is Muirgen, the name of a Christian shapeshifting female saint who was associated with the sea"). (I think that should actually be linked to Lí Ban (mermaid)?) Both the Welsh Morgen and the Irish Muirgein are said (in some sources) to derive from murigena, and this article states that it refers to Welsh mythology, so should a redirect be to Morgen? The Morgen article currently makes no mention of the Irish version, and neither Lí Ban article mentions the Welsh morgen or Morgan. It would seem useful to have some way of directing readers to both the Welsh and Irish articles, as they may be looking for either. I'm not sure what the best way to sort this out would be. It would be helpful to see more of that 1927 source, especially to be able to see its sources! RebeccaGreen (talk) 03:13, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]