Talk:Murders of Kian delos Santos, Carl Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman

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This article was nominated for deletion on 19 August 2017. The result of the discussion was keep.

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On 18 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Killings of Kian delos Santos, Carl Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman to Murders of Kian delos Santos, Carl Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman. The result of the discussion was moved.

Bato's statement

Al Jazeera^[1], Reuters^[2], and International Business Times^[3] report the following quote allegedly from General Ronald dela Rosa:

I will not allow any police officer to just kill a 17-year-old boy for no reason at all. Are they that heartless? Just think about it, he is just a kid. If that happened to your sibling? We will investigate it, I assure you

However, I cannot find it on publications by Philippines-based media. Should this be included in the Reactions section of the article? Jollibinay (talk) 09:35, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Kian Loyd Delos Santos, 17, killed in drug crackdown". Al Jazeera. 19 August 2017. Retrieved 21 August 2017.
^ Castro, Erik De; Mogato, Manuel (August 18, 2017). "Furore erupts over killing of teenager as Philippines drugs war escalates". Reuters. Retrieved 21 August 2017.
^ Sim, David (August 18, 2017). "Philippines demands justice for Kian as 17-year-old boy shot dead in Duterte's war on drugs". International Business Times. Retrieved 21 August 2017. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

Image of Kian, and CCTV images of the crime

If possible, one should add one image of the victim, and a CCTV shot to the article. Other readers may know more about the incident when a few pictures can be added, even when it is not freely reusable (under WP:NFCC). Pinging @Hariboneagle927: and @Jollibinay:. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:09, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

TagaSanPedroAko For this matter, we could study articles of similar incidents like Shooting of Philando Castile (has external link of shooting video), Rodney King (has screenshots of video), and Shooting of Michael Brown (has a photo of the victim). Videos and photos that are not free use get deleted from Wikipedia. It would also be good if someone has photos from the protests on Aug 21. Jollibinay (talk) 19:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jollibinay: Non-free images are allowable under the Exemption Doctrine Policy and WP:Non-free content through fair use, if you're not aware of. They are only get deleted when it does not comply with any of the non-free content criteria. But if one wants an image of the victim or a video of the incident added, yes, you may study articles incorporating such.

I agree that an image of the August 21 protest can be added. A free image may be expected, but that means that one needs to dig up on possible image resources until one under a free license can be found. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 19:42, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No luck finding a free image in Flickr. Maybe contacting one of the groups that participated in the protest to let us upload and use one of their images under free use (and attributing them) and have relevant permission verified through Commons:OTRS. Contacting relevant groups through Facebook for permission might guarantee a response more than to email them. But to have permission verified by the OTRS team, we could ask the organization to email us so we can forward the email to the OTRS team.

Protest groups might be inclined to grant permission to use their images since it could boost their cause.

In regards to CCTV footage/screenshot, it could be uploaded under fair use I believe since the CCTV element is a vital part of this case which makes this different than the other killings.Hariboneagle927 (talk) 01:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hariboneagle927: Yes, you may go for OTRS to upload a free image of the protest from the groups involved in the anti-extrajudicial killings protest at the People Power Monument.

And for the CCTV shots, a fair use image will do it, as the footage of the incident where Kian is brought to a dead end alley where he is shot to death is subject to critical commentary. (talk) 01:52, 23 August 2017 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by TagaSanPedroAko (talk • contribs) 04:20, 23 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deaths of Carlo Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman

Related deaths of other minors, Carlo Arnaiz and Reynaldo "Kulot" de Guzman, has been linked or mentioned in relation to the death of Kian delos Santos. Any insights on how to deal with content related to the deaths of these two people. Should a subsection be made on this article on their deaths to Kian's article or should a separate article be made for their deaths?Hariboneagle927 (talk) 01:29, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think the case of Arnaiz and De Guzman are relevant enough to have their own separate article Jollibinay (talk) 10:41, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is it appropriate to create a single article on Arnaiz and De Guzman cases given the direct relations of the two (the two are both friends and De Guzman is suspected to have been killed so he cant testify against Arnaiz's case?Hariboneagle927 (talk) 11:17, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hariboneagle927 I think it should be a single article. The charges filed against the suspects was double murder. Jollibinay (talk) 16:45, 23 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Split proposal

I'm formally proposing the article split proposed in the section above - moving this article back to Shooting of Kian delos Santos, and then creating a new article at Shootings of Carl Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman. Actually, I'd normally wp:be bold and do it myself, but I will be rather preoccupied for the next few days, so if anyone wants to beat me to the punch, feel free... - Alternativity (talk) 02:12, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Even if the two cases occurred within days of each other and both involved the Caloocan Police, the case of Carl Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman is a separate incident with a separate investigation and separate set of suspects. Jollibinay (talk) 10:49, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Per nomination. —hueman1 (talk) 12:50, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: @Alternativity: Are you still in to this? I created a draft article for the deaths of Carl Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman. —hueman1 (talk) 13:11, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting Comment: @HueMan1: I strongly support this. However, I do not logistically have the time anymore to do this myself. So I certainly support the adaptation of your draft for this purpose, provided we do all we can to preserve and link the shared history of the two articles. - Alternativity (talk) 04:27, 23 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: @Alternativity: Despite my support for this split proposal, I just thought that maybe we should just rename it as 2017 Caloocan massacre^[a] and repurpose it. If you could see, the draft I created about a month ago is quite short and really outdated. I must admit that the topic is now irrelevant, or not as relevant as it was then. I don't think we can gather any more sources to expand the article, as there were no new news related to the killings are published after 2017. –hueman1 (talk) 18:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It was not split for five years and there was a dispute. I am procedurally closing this as no consensus. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 18 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 03:48, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Killings of Kian delos Santos, Carl Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman → Murders of Kian delos Santos, Carl Arnaiz and Reynaldo de Guzman – A murder conviction has already been made regarding these killings so it would now be accurate to legally describe these killings as "murders". Hariboneagle927 (talk) 23:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination. The article does confirm that the killings indeed resulted in murder convictions. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:05, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, there are murder convictions for all three. 162 etc. (talk) 16:24, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination. - MistahPeemayer (talk) 03:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nomination. SeanJ 2007 (talk) 06:42, 20 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

war on drugs kian delos santos

war on drugs kian delos santos 2001:4452:252:2D00:BDDE:5886:F73B:63DA (talk) 21:49, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha> tags or {{efn}} templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}} template or {{notelist}} template (see the help page).

[1] "Kian Loyd Delos Santos, 17, killed in drug crackdown". Al Jazeera. 19 August 2017. Retrieved 21 August 2017.

[2] Castro, Erik De; Mogato, Manuel (August 18, 2017). "Furore erupts over killing of teenager as Philippines drugs war escalates". Reuters. Retrieved 21 August 2017.

[3] Sim, David (August 18, 2017). "Philippines demands justice for Kian as 17-year-old boy shot dead in Duterte's war on drugs". International Business Times. Retrieved 21 August 2017. {{cite news}}: Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

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