Talk:Murder of Miquel Grau

Copy Edit: paused due to issues discovered in "Trial, sentence and pardon" section

The section regarding the trial has given unexpected difficulties. Certain aspects of the Spanish justice system (which from my research may even be outdated) don't make much sense to me as an English speaker, and I'm reasonably familiar with legal procedure in the criminal justice systems of English-speaking countries. I don't speak Spanish myself, so I was relying on finding articles or sites in English which could shed some light on those issues, but after digging through English WP and general Googles, I'm still none the wiser. It seems no one has thought of publishing these details in English. I'm really not certain that the translated terminology makes much sense in English. For example, there's reference to "accusations" from family members as well as by political organisations; and although integrada == integrated, in the context of a civil homicide case being "integrated" by multiple political organisations it makes far less sense. There are some other details needing to be resolved, such as reference to "minor" and "major" prison.

For now I've put the polish on hold, since I can't be sure that I'm working with correct translations of the terminology, or that the translation concepts are clear to the general English-speaking reader. If we can review and confirm the accuracy of the translations of the terms, then the article also needs at least a sentence or two just to clarify these details for English readers. I've found no helpful articles in English WP or elsewhere online which sheds any light.

Anyone who can help, please let me know. Thanks!

Cadar (talk) 09:09, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Content duplicated from User:MX talk page per discussion there

[NB this content has been edited to remove non-applicable subject matter]

@MX: I'm a member of the Guild of Copy Editors and have taken on the job of polishing an article about a Spanish murder in the 1970s. So far so good - until I reached the section regarding the trial, where I ran into unexpected difficulties. The article obviously talks about certain aspects of the Spanish justice system (which from my research may even be outdated) and which don't make much sense to an English speaker, even one reasonably familiar with legal procedure in English criminal justice systems. I don't speak Spanish myself, so I was relying on finding articles or sites in English which could shed some light on that, but after digging through English WP and general Googles, I'm still none the wiser. It seems no one has thought of publishing these details in English. I'm really not certain that the translated terminology makes much sense in English; e.g. clearly, integrada == integrated, but in the context of a homicide case being "integrated" by multiple political organisations it makes far less sense. And there's reference to "accusations" from family members as well as by political organisations - again, wildly different from systems in English language countries. So for now I'm stalled. I'm thinking the way forward - if you can't shed some light on it yourself or offer slightly more accurate/apposite translations of the necessary words - might be to refer to Spanish WP (which I can't do), or even hunt up a Spanish lawyer who can supply the background to make a more informed decision (which I can). I think at the least a sentence or two just to clarify these details for English readers are necessary. Oddly enough, there seems to be no English article regarding this kind of detail of the Spanish justice system online, at least not one I've found. I also can't seem to find a good place in Spanish-related projects on WP to ask an editor who might know the answers. So in desperation, here I am!

What are your thoughts? Many thanks!

Cadar (talk) 08:46, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• @Cadar: Hi, thanks for coming to my talkpage! In order to understand the acusación statement, readers would need some background on Spain's legal system. According to Article 125 of Spanish Constitution, all Spanish citizens are allowed to participate in criminal proceedings, even if they were not "directly" affected by the crime in question. They just have to justify they are acting on behalf of legality and meet a few more prerequisites. Essentially, this allows citizens and civil groups in Spain to act as "third-party" prosecutors. This motion is legally known as acusación popular and is still used in Spain. So this means that the suspect (Miguel Ángel Panadero) went to trial facing the government as the main prosecutor, and facing Grau's family and civil organizations as third-party prosecutors. I found this source that gives an overview of the law. It might be good to add it as a footnote, or to create a new article (Spanish Wikipedia has one for it already).

I hope this helps clarify. Please reach out if you have any questions – happy to help! Cheers, MX (✉ • ✎) 15:08, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I thought there was something like that involved, and your term "third-party" prosecutors makes it clearer. I'm presuming, then, that Spanish law also allows co-accusations not just from individuals, but also from organisations such as the political ones involved in that trial, which were clearly milking the death of an unknown for every political drop they could? This makes more sense now. I couldn't find any information at all on the details here on WP (at least not in the English WP) and oddly enough, nothing online. One site gave some information regarding rights of representation, etc., but none of these specifics. Of course, English doesn't seem to have any direct translations for those terms, so if I use "third-party accusations", is that accurate enough? And for "integrated"? I'm not sure if that's quite the right term here. Perhaps "combined" or even "composite" might be better?

Many thanks for getting back to me about this. It's helped to clear some of the mystery up If you like, we can move the discussion over to the article's talk page and then this information is available to other editors.

Thanks again!

Cadar (talk) 16:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

• @Cadar: Yes, associations/companies can also act as third-party prosecutors (but not "groups", though I'm not sure what the distinction is. It might just be a that it has to be an "official" organization). This source here translates acusación popular to "third-party prosecution", so feel free to use "third-party". In my opinion, the literal translation would be "popular accusation/prosecution", but this term doesn't explain the law as good as mentioning "third-party". For integrado, I would use "composed of", "made up of", "consists of", etc. That is the literal translation for it in Spanish given the context. Now, for future reference, I'd recommend you use Linguee instead of Google Translate if you aren't using it. Linguee gives you a specific phrase across multiple sources, since words can vary depending on the context. I use it when I want to read sources in languages I'm not familiar with (especially in law, when the terms can be very specific). MX (✉ • ✎) 17:52, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Copy edit per request at Guild of Copy Editors completed

All grammar, spelling, punctuation etc has been resolved. British English spellings formalised and used. Information regarding Spanish criminal law added and cited; but needs references for differences between "reclusión menor" (ordinary or minor prison) and "reclusión mayor" (special or major prison); added 'citation needed' templates for those. Infobox cleaned up and relevant/available details added. Translation of Catalan song title found and added. ISBN corrected in citation.

My work is done

Cadar (talk) 23:13, 2 July 2019 (UTC)