Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher/Archive 30

This is an archive of past discussions about Murder of Meredith Kercher. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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New Witness Testimony in Appeal

Just so I don't forget while the article is locked, the following article talks about the new witnesses the defense called for testimony [1]LedRush (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, another article that talks about new witness testimony, including that the homeless witness' testimony was contradicted by the six other witnesses, who "established" that there were no discos open or buses running the night he claims to have seen the Knox and Sollecito. It also established that the homeless witness has been a prosecution witness in two other murder cases. [2] LedRush (talk) 23:45, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Definitely something there. The section currently looks like this: "In late March 2011, a key prosecution witness used to place Knox and Sollecito near the crime scene on the night of the murder admitted to being a homeless heroin addict. He later contradicted himself regarding the dates, times and details regarding when he may have seen Knox and Sollecito." (refs excluded). I think the entire section could use some expansion. That section, and the one below it, are presented almost in isolation. The section below says "... media reports surfaced ...", which is true, but not totally accurate. The appeal is really being pushed by the defense team. For example, the existing refs for the above statement are all dated in late march, but the one you've got is from mid-march. That section should start with the defense team introducing multiple witnesses who contradicted some of the testimony given during the original trial. Next, briefly go over what was contradicted and how. There's a mention that the original witness would testify in the appeal, so I think would logically flow next.

Honestly, I'd love to restructure a major chunk of the article. Right now there's a really disjointed feel to it. I'd keep things through the People charged section. Next section would be the investigation and cover what was done. Some of the facts that came out later, such as improper handling, statements taken and ignored by the police, etc should be in here. The hard part will be to keep this neutral and not go "X was done, but in the appeal, the defense said Y did not happen." Rather, something like "X was done, however they did not do Y". Probably subsections for physical evidence, witnesses and suspect interrogations.

Next major section would be Guedde's trial, then the major section for the Knox and Sollecito trial. Cover the case as laid out by the prosecution, then the defense. Finally, cover the verdict and the judges report. The appeal also gets a major section. Start with who can appeal and who did, plus how the process works. Then get into the specifics of the appeal. "In the trial, witness A said B, but the defense introduced witnesses to contradict C and D" - something like that. Finally, go with the existing sections for the rest of the article

I think there's too many inconsequential details in the article that aren't needed. For example, do we really need to know on what day a witnesses testimony was contradicted? Put when the appeal happened, but if someone needs to know the day X testified, we've given them the reference - they can look there.

Just some (radical) thoughts of mine. Ravensfire (talk) 02:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

We need to give the readers a clue why this is such a controversial case. The people section should mention that AK and RS have no history of violence. Perhaps the editors who keep demanding a separate Amanda Knox article could add a bit more to this section. Right now, the events surrounding the murder section only includes events known before the first arrests. (The other witness reports such as the lady who heard the scream and the shopkeeper had not yet come forward.) Change the first sentence to explain this. I would add the two attempted phone calls and the MMS message received by Meredith's phone. The Perugia police chief declaring the case closed in a press conference after the arrests on Nov. 6th, long before Rudy was a suspect, should also be mentioned. We don't need to state what day a witness testified, but do need to put the various claims about what people heard or didn't hear on the night of the murder together. Nara heard a scream, the people in the disabled car heard nothing and said the cottage was dark.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Footwarrior (talk • contribs) 03:21, April 7, 2011

I think one telling detail is the fact that Amanda Knox's picture was put up on the police "wall of shame" next to Mafia capos within days of her arrest and months before she was charged. PietroLegno (talk) 10:37, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, that really doesn't bother me too much. Call me jaded, but cops in general pull crap like that all over the place, especially if someone attractive is involved. It's BS, but it's there. Telling is the apparent bungled mess of an investigation they ran. To me, that's a sign the were hiding problems with the case from the get-go. The trials and investigation post-appeal will be interesting to watch. I'm going to play with a reorg in my user-space over the next day or two. I'll post something when I think I've got something vaguely interesting and see what you all think. At least initially, I'm just going to use what's in the article and revamp from there. Ravensfire (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it's a noble attempt, but a very difficult one. Much of this language exists only after very, very difficult negotiations. I, personally, would want to see blacklines of every section to ensure that the language changes were in fact beneficial.LedRush (talk) 16:58, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, while I can generally get on board with your reorg, I think it is imperative that we don't make statements in the beginning that we have to "undo" later on. For example, I don't think we can state that a witness saw AK and RS near the scene of the crime in the beginning, and not mention that he was admittedly on heroin (and addicted to it) at the time, that this is his 3rd time testifying for the prosecution in a murder trial, and that we was not only contradicted by 6 witnesses, but by himself. If we only put his testimony in a beginning "facts of the case" section, it will mislead readers, violate NPOV and violate BLP.LedRush (talk) 17:04, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Really? There's tough negotiations here? I must have missed them! :) Just kidding - I'm aware of that. You second comment is something I've already planned on, because it's something that has really bugged me about the article today. It is disjointed and repetive in places. What I'm thinking is section probably before the trial stuff to cover the disputed evidence, completely. This actually simplifies the other sections because they don't have to talk about specifics, just summaries. Think of "the defense disputed much of the evidence as part of their appeal, bringing forth witnesses that criticized the investigation, found flaws in the handling and testing of DNA and blood evidence and highlighted inconsistencies and changes in witness testimony" - that basically summarizes what the defense has done in the appeal. Ravensfire (talk) 19:43, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The upstairs flat diagram

Where did that come from? Is it original research, or a reproduction of something published in a secondary source? Sorry if I missed earlier discussion on this issue: the board is crazy busy now.LedRush (talk) 21:33, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Click on the image and you will see it's the original work of the editor that uploaded the graphic. --Footwarrior (talk) 00:12, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

So, is OR allowed for diagrams?LedRush (talk) 00:15, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

A diagram is not considered original research. See WP:OI.--Footwarrior (talk) 00:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Got it, thanks. So, it is clear that this image does "not illustrate or introduce unpublished ideas or arguments"? Everyone's ok with it? I am not educated enough on the house layout to have an opinion.LedRush (talk) 00:21, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

(after endless ec) :::The image is still there after it was deleted several times (also under a different filename) because the uploader was so insistent and seemly nobody cared anymore :) Cheers.TMCk (talk) 00:24, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Why was it deleted? Was it because it illustrates or introduces unpublished ideas or argument? Or because it's not needed? Something else?LedRush (talk) 01:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

This is Wikid77, the author of that concept diagram, and it had been deleted (twice?) as being too close in dimensions to a published map of the house, which would be considered a copy vio unless all dimensions of the house could be proven to match a published source of the house measurements (as in the Micheli Judgment). Instead, using sources which described the relative locations of the rooms and objects, I recreated the image as a rough concept diagram, with rectangular walls although the actual house had uneven skewed walls, with the bedrooms nearly square. That way, there was no need to prove the length of each wall segment as required in a map scaled to the numbers in a formal source document. Although that diagram is backed by the room descriptions from Micheli, free photos could be submitted with little restrictions. The policy might seem shocking, but the issue of "no original research" does not apply to photos, and someone could upload a photo claiming it showed part of the house, and there would be no need to cite a published photo to prove the similarity with a documented source photo. That is another area of Wikipedia which could be improved, to require some amount of similarity to published photos in some cases. The limit on diagrams restricts the image to not "introduce unpublished ideas" such as a re-enactment of an event which does not match any reliable source. -Wikid77 03:11, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

If the copyright fanatics are going to be that obnoxious, someone could copy the computer software industry's "clean room" approach. One Wikipedian writes down a verbal description of the map, giving the dimensions of all the rooms, in a format that is clearly non-copyrightable in a country not suffering from database copyright. Another then creates a map based on that information, without having viewed the original document. The measurements are sourced to the original diagram, so it is not original research, but no copyright violation can be asserted. Note that I would have no issue about accepting the good faith of an editor who says that he performed both steps, provided the output does not clearly contradict that. Wnt (talk) 03:33, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I also think a floorplan could be drawn from measurements, but that would be so tedious and most likely, some users would begin arguing that it introduced "original research" of the proportional wall thickness or other issues of map scaling. Hence, a concept diagram is simpler, requiring less rigorous defense of the length and width of each area. Ideas cannot be copyrighted, so there is no restriction to indicate a doorway where one is shown in a photograph. The concept is similar to noting a person in a photograph is "2nd person from the left" and that is not considered original research. Most simple conclusions are allowed when writing articles, as allowable synthesis, as opposed to "novel conclusions" not found in WP:RS reliable sources. -Wikid77 08:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I am not a fanatic. I merely wanted to know the history of the image and the associated rules. It seems particularly important in an contentious article such as this.LedRush (talk) 03:38, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

It had been added to an old version of the article, then deleted as considered a map. Another user requested the diagram be re-added several weeks later, and that is when I added the current style of image (seen here at left). It was also noted as important when it was re-added, to support more detail about the topic. For instance, it is obvious in the diagram that there were 4 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms (and only 2, whereas 1 bathroom on a floor is often assumed). More later. -Wikid77 08:17, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I took it out. It adds nothing and is OR. --John (talk) 06:17, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I put it back in to correct the violation of consensus, while the image was being discussed. Hello? Please read WP:CONSENSUS about how people on Wikipedia discuss potential major deletions, such as removing an image to get agreement, especially, consider discussing the notion with the person who created the diagram. Also, read WP:NOR and WP:RS for background information. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:06, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

As an administrator of several years standing I assure you I am very familiar with the pages you linked to. It is clearly a case of original research, and the onus is on you if you wish to include it, to demonstrate a consensus that it is worth keeping. If you cannot do that, it will have to be removed again. --John (talk) 14:08, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I object in the strongest possible terms to John's continued attempts to introduce non-neutral elements here and into the lead--and heavens knows where else. He is undermining our efforts to build consensus and make a very flawed article much better. PietroLegno (talk) 15:03, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I see no evidence that this non-free diagram is a POV. However, if you insist it be removed, I guess that's ok. Hipocrite (talk) 15:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Probably easiest to take it to the OR noticeboard and get some additional eyes who aren't involved in this article. Ravensfire (talk) 15:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Good idea Ravensfire, I probably will do. --John (talk) 17:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Done. Sorry it took me a few days. --John (talk) 07:56, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

If User:John is indeed "an administrator of several years" who is "very familiar with the pages" he should also be aware of WP:CONSENSUS, WP:INVOLVED and WP:EDITWAR. Some of his statements here and elsewhere seem overly aggressive and appear to be trying to use his admin status as a hammer to get his own way. I hope that is not the case, and he could reassure us it is not by toning his rhetoric down several notches. He should also be reminded that User:JimboWales himself was here and made statements that seem to contradict what John is now trying to say. Are we to believe that Jimbo does not understand WP:NOR? Or is it that people in good faith can come to conflicting conclusions?

Seriously, John, take a step back, try to have a good faith discussion with people instead of just insisting you are right, and do not dive in with controversial edits against consensus. As an administrator with all your years of experience there is no excuse for behavior that violates Wikipedia's standards of conduct. DreamGuy (talk) 16:48, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Previous version of this image were deleted because they were copyviolations of an image from this website: [3]. Although the version here has been narrowed by 16%, had its colour scheme changed and had some toilets added, it still looks derived from the same image to me. If it is, then it is still a copyvio. Wikid, you say "using sources which described the relative locations of the rooms and objects, I recreated the image as a rough concept diagram". Which sources did you use? How is it that the descriptions in these sources were such that the result of your work map exactly onto the floor plan produced by the BBC? --FormerIP (talk) 20:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the original, I think it's absurd to call that a copyvio. I would dispute whether such a simple linear top-down diagram has enough artistic elements to copyright at all, and certainly they aren't copied over. At least in the U.S., you can't copyright the numeric dimensions of the rooms or which is attached to which - and that's all they have in common! Wnt (talk) 21:57, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

You can copyright a drawing though. What they have in common is that one is the other after someone has photoshopped it. --FormerIP (talk) 22:00, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

The BBC site above is missing a few key details. Like it shows no door into the flat! More significantly, it omits all mention of the shared kitchen, something which I would think would be of no small importance to point out in relation to the provenance of a few cells' worth of DNA. Wnt (talk) 22:08, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm very familiar with the cottage layout and photos and I think the flat diagram would be very useful to a reader. The diagram is accurate and useful. It is good to have a visual of where the different rooms are. If this is about having a concensus, my opinion is its a keeper. Issymo (talk) 00:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Diagram, part of the evidence file developed by the Italian police.--Truth Mom (talk) 04:42, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is the diagram taken from the case file: http://friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/fingerprint_map_small.jpg There should be no problem with it as it is all public record. I am constantly amazed at the lengths to which some editors will go to try to keep good, useful, and eminently useful information out of the article. PietroLegno (talk) 08:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure the article benefits a great deal from a floorplan of the flat anyway. If this image is public domain, though, it would certainly be better than an image modified by a user from a copright image. --FormerIP (talk) 02:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I've already made a request on the talk page of the file. Would someone please add the sources for the flat diagram on the file page?--Grifomaniacs (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is either a copyvio or most likely, original research and I urge that it be taken down from the article. It might be less of a problem on an article about a railroad or a carnival ride, but it is not in our interests to publish a user-generated image like this on an article about a murder case which has not been fully resolved. --John (talk) 07:56, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Having looked hard at the image for the first time, I agree with John on WP:OR concerns. I appreciate that links to possible source material have been added above, but I doubt that it is enough to cite such links here, at the article talk page, and claim no violation of relevant policies when there is no attribution on the file page or in the file itself past "as indicated in numerous photos of the house". The image in isolation gives no clue as to how the dimensions are sourced - they cannot be verified without positive attribution. On WP:COPYVIO, I'd argue that the image is safe. Wikipedia's fair-use media policies state that duplicating such things as graphs is forbidden, since graph values can easily be reproduced in the form of a free-licence image. If it is impossible to copyright graphs, I doubt that it is possible to copyright the scale dimensions of an apartment. Super Mario Man 00:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I do not share those OR concerns since the drawing can be easily verified. The only concern I have is that the image could be a copyvio for which we have experts to look over it and decide. Should it be only available as fair use I see no need to keep it though I wouldn't keep it in the article as free image either.TMCk (talk) 01:36, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me there are two separate threads here; the merits of this particular image (I think it's unprofessional and fanboyish, not to mention possible OR and copyvio concerns), and also whether this article really benefits from having a floorplan diagram, however conformant with our policy (I think it does not). As several others have questioned this, could we take it down while we discuss it? I really think it looks awful. --John (talk) 02:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Note: I've been bold and taken the floor plan out again. I don't want to provoke an edit war over this, but there is hardly an overwhelming consensus for its presence in the article at this time. If the WP:BRD cycle is to be adhered to, it should arguably never have been re-inserted in the first place pending a full discussion at the talk page (which still seems to be incomplete). A referral from the OR noticeboard is expected. Until this is done, merits and disadvantages of the image can be reviewed using the copy posted here at the talk page. Super Mario Man 03:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Escalating edit-war for diagram: Taking the image out, for a 2nd time, really is a MAJOR edit-war action, after all the above comments explaining who, what, when, where, why and how the image was requested, created, referenced, explained, justified, and screened against numerous WP policies and guidelines. However, I will ask other editors to leave the image out, for a few days, to give people time to re-read the (above) comments and consider the many people who strongly stated to leave the diagram in the article. When 5 people say, "Don't remove the diagram" then there is no consensus to remove the diagram. That, of course, is clear. As for WP:IDONTLIKEIT viewpoints, well, please understand, if I had already re-edited the diagram into a highly polished, intricate image, then someone would be re-nominating it as a copyvio of some imagined "professional diagram" every few days, as unlikely to be the artwork of an average-user effort. Right now, most normal people easily conclude, "Hey, there's no way this simple stick-figure diagram is a copyvio of a professional floor-plan". I apologize if I seem too harsh, but this diagram has been hounded for at least 8 rounds of being removed and re-added to the article, each time being axed due to some imagined earth-shattering crisis. If "you don't like it" then ignore it, or offer some positive suggestions of how it could be improved. Meanwhile, several users are probably fearing that they are being excluded from the consensus here, so that is why I will be putting the image back into the article in a few days. It is a violation of WP:DE and INTIMIDATION to abruptly remove a large diagram that many users agreed should stay. Please don't do these major deletions again without a true consensus, because it looks like an escalation of WP:BATTLEground mentality. -Wikid77 (talk) 08:27, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I fail utterly to understand the objection to the diagram's being included. In fact, had user Wikid77 not proposed a rational way of proceeding I would have reinstated the diagram this morning. The idea that this might be OR seems overly lawyered to me and flies in the face of common sense. As I noted above, a version of the diagram was introduced at trial by the prosecution and is part of the public record of the case. I look forward to the diagram being back in in a few days. PietroLegno (talk) 08:40, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Or perhaps "this diagram has been hounded for at least 8 rounds of being removed and re-added to the article, each time being axed" because multiple users have raised legitimate questions about its very existence in the article? This is all about erring on the side of caution. I don't think that a highly visible page like this one really needs such a questionable image when a full review of its status has yet to be finished. Furthermore, if you're going to state categorically that "I will be putting the image back into the article in a few days", then don't bother making quick references to WP:DE, WP:INTIM and WP:BATTLE to round off your post - I think you'll find that the real edit war will become obvious if the image is replaced too soon. Super Mario Man 12:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The image exists to, once again, advance a specific POV. It is unnecessary, adds little value to the reader's understanding of the overall subject matter, and quite honestly looks like a 10 yr old whipped it up with MS Paint. Tarc (talk) 13:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

In order to clear any suspect of WP:OR, the file description should report the sources used to create that graphical logical representation of the crime scene. It is not sufficient to report them in this talk page, because the sources may be verified by readers as well. As I wrote on the file talk page the best sources for the graphical artwork could be text articles that describe the crime scene. In fact, at that point nobody could claim any WP:Copyvio. --Grifomaniacs (talk) 13:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

This diagram is beneficial to the article. I don't personally understand how it can be thought of as either advancing a POV or how it is OR. It is simply stating the dimensions of the flat and showing the relationship of the rooms to each other and the location of bathrooms and the kitchen. I have read this whole section and am baffled as to why this is still an issue. Turningpointe (talk) 18:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It's ok that you don't personally understand as you are either a brand-new editor or a sock of a blocked editor. We need to persuasively answer the concerns over a) the image quality (it looks crap) and b) whether the article needs an image of this type (it probably doesn't). Once these questions have been answered to the satisfaction of the non-SPA editors here, we could consider including the diagram. --John (talk) 19:52, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I would remind you, John, not to engage in personal attacks; please try and discuss the edit and not the editor.LedRush (talk) 20:03, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Would some sort of dispute resolution process, such as an RfC, be called for here? Perhaps the biggest obstacle to establishing a firm consensus (for either inclusion or exclusion - there are arguments for both) is the fact that there have been too few contributors to the discussion thus far who are sufficiently uninvolved to help reach a conclusive judgement. Wikid has updated the file documentation at Commons with attribution to a similar image at the Friends of Amanda site - such a partisan source would not be acceptable for citations in text, but are there no problems with using it to source a floorplan? Super Mario Man 20:06, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The best place to start is the Original Research noticeboard. You'll get a fair number of uninvolved editors to read and hopefully comment on this. Ravensfire (talk) 20:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It has been posted there by John.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 21:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Great! I didn't make the connection (I've got ORN on my watchlist) and didn't check before posting. My apologies! Ravensfire (talk) 21:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I was just wondering whether something besides the OR noticeboard was merited also, but I accept Ravensfire's conclusion. Super Mario Man 21:16, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

User:John, your comment is purely opinion. I do not see above where the quality is in question and why would it not be beneficial to have a diagram of the flat so that people can have a mental picture of the crime scene and the rest of the flat so they may understand physical descriptions of the evidence better?Turningpointe (talk) 20:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

(An outsider still looking in) John, which policies are you pointing to to back up image quality and article needs? Newcomers need to see these policies linked and not just alluded to. Also, to whomever can answer, a concern has been raised that the map advances a certain POV...can you explain how it does so. That isn't clear what is meant by that assertion. It is starting to seem as if the goalposts are being moved. The only legitimate policy concerns that I have seen in this thread are potential copyvio (which does not appear to have merit) and potential original research (no opinion yet).
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:43, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I cannot see any reason why the current diagram cannot remain on the article. It is certainly beneficial to the reader. I don't think "it looks like crap" is a good reason to remove it. I am eager to hear what other editors not involved with this article think about the need for a diagram. Just out of curiosity, what are the objections to using the diagram made available from the actual case files? http://friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/fingerprint_map_small.jpg BruceFisher (talk) 21:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

When I first looked at this article a long time ago I apprecitated the diagram. It helped me visualize the flat. The flat layout is odd for an American because there really isn't a living room. It helps the reader understand where the two bathrooms are, which is important to the crime details. The same goes for the room where the window is broken and MK's bedroom. I don't see how the diagram pushes a point of view in ANYWAY, it is simply the layout of the flat. It is a very, very useful visual tool for any reader. I think both sides can appreciate the value it brings to the reader. If the issue is the way the diagram looks - a very good option is to replace it with the police dept diagram. It has the benefit of being more professionally done. I'm okay with either diagram, but would really like to see one remain because of the value it provided to me and I know would to other readers. Here again is the police diagram - http://friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/fingerprint_map_small.jpg Issymo (talk) 22:01, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

User:Tarc The diagram of a crime scene in a Wiki article about a crime is "unnecessary"? That's a rather remarkable statement. How is it possible to even begin to address what strives to be an "encyclopedic" understanding of a crime without a mutually 'understood' location/environment of a "crime scene"? How else does one know/refer to where/what one is talking about? How does a "location" advance a "specific POV" that is not already inherent in the location itself? Where in the history of crime scene investigation or expository writings on crime has there been such a statement? No where in the U.S. Dept of Justice Guide to Crime Scene Investigation can you find a statement so ridiculous. Do you think Italian investigators believe otherwise? Please cite a ref. The converse is true and any "10 year old" can tell you 'that', let alone one sophisticated enough to have "whipped up" an easier to see and read but nonetheless accurate rendering of the police diagram from the case files "with MS Paint". Also, regarding the statement that the image "..adds little value to the reader's understanding of the overall subject matter..."? An understanding of the layout of the crime scene is one of the most fundamental and important elements, if not the most fundamental and important element, investigators must consider when evaluating the circumstances behind any crime, particularly one that involves evidence that was discovered in various rooms and locations throughout a house over a period of months and allege a "cleanup" took place as well as a "faked break-in" intended to throw authorities off-track of the entrance and exit points of the perpetrator/perpetrators. It's inclusion, therefore, does add a fundamentally important element to the "value of the readers overall understanding of the subject matter" as much of the discussion of this case and it's attending controversies have centered on whether or not the crime as theorized by authorities to have occurred was even possible. It defies belief there is an argument regarding the "importance" of including a diagram of the crime scene itself.Fancourt (talk) 00:31, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that replacing the current user-made image with the Italian police's own image would be acceptable under fair-use media guidelines. In general, when it is possible to make a free reproduction of licensed media that would adequately preserve the encyclopaedic benefit of the original, Wikipedia insists that the self-made image be used. Like Berean Hunter, I believe that the problem of WP:COPYVIO has little foundation. Instead of uploading a fair-use image, a better course of action would be for Wikid to remake the existing image to true scale. Super Mario Man 21:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I like the diagram. It gives me a better understanding of the event. I don't think it needs to be to scale. Would a note added to the diagram saying not to scale suffice? --Truth Mom (talk) 23:32, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't dispute that the image adds to the article. Some users have suggested that it looks juvenile, but appearance isn't much of a concern to me either. There is already a note in the diagram itself stating that the dimensions are not scaled. The crux of my argument is that, given the question (whether well- or ill-founded) about OR, a diagram that is made to scale would eliminate concerns about original interpretation or approximation from the source material. After all, in the image, it is stated that "positions are approximate". Super Mario Man 01:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi guys. I'm back. I have to say, I cant believe the issue of adding a simple diagram to the article has created this much controversy. The diagram is a simple line drawing that illustrates the relative positions of the rooms and doors. It's no doubt inspired by the BBC diagram and possibly the numerous photos of the flat that have been published online. There's no claim of scaled measurements. It's clearly not WP:OR. It does nothing more than help the reader visualize the layout of the apartment. There cannot be anything anymore UNcontroversial than the apt floorplan. So whats the REAL issue here? I see the discussion splitting along the usual lines but I dont understand why. How does a floorplan either suggest Amanda's guilt OR innocence? It doesnt. So, unless someone has a claim that the diagram isnt accurate, I move we re-add the floorplan and move on to issues of some weight. SUPPORT ADD OF FLOORPLAN. Tjholme (talk) 01:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree with Tjholme. There is absolutely no controversy with this floor plan. It looks like this debate will go the same path as all others. Keep debating every little detail until the thread archives and nothing gets accomplished. The problem is that the picture was eliminated without consensus. I would call the current tactic being used a filibuster. BruceFisher (talk) 21:36, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I have just read this entire thread about the floorplan. As a Wikipedia novice I think it is an appalling disgrace. It is clear that there are editors who will use every possible filibuster activity to prevent any change to the page at all. How adding a diagram showing the flat layout and the relationship of one room to another, can be anything other than helpful to a neutral reader, is quite beyond me. Editors who are opposing this are displaying bad faith on a breathtaking scale and this must be obvious to everyone who reads the thread. It is no surprise that some previous editors have been blocked in the past when they have overreacted after having been driven to distraction by these tactics. If Wikipedia is to have any credibility as an information resource, editing in good faith must be restored and those who are responsible for Wikipedia must act. I had naively thought that the intervention of Jimbo Wales in person would cause some of these editors to pause and change their behaviour but while some have withdrawn, many of the current crop have responded with renewed energy and are as disruptive as ever. It is as though they get a perverse delight in winning an argument at all costs and have absolutely no interest in working towards a consensus to provide an informative, comprehensive and comprehendable article for the neutral reader. This must raise questions about the motives of these people. NigelPScott (talk) 10:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo's intervention seems to have made no difference to these editors' behaviour I'm afraid, Nigel. Reliable sources questioning the reliability of witnesses are being excluded on flimsy grounds (how is saying someone has hearing problems defamatory?) and the article is being systematically censored and gutted of content in violation of the spirit of Wikipedia. The trouble is that these editors are able to game the system very effectively to achieve their goals. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 11:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I feel the floor plan is fine. I am in agreement that it needs to remain. "As Is" is perfect. Let us not continue on to make a mockery of what Wiki actually stands for with this constant bicker ordeal. I vote to put it in, as is,and leave it alone. The world uses Wiki as a resource, and thus far, it is only showing a battle field of arguments. Do I really need to go into that again? Seriously? Let us get it in there and move on, there is so much more to be attended to within this article, and the arguments need to stop. Again, this is NOT a playground, this is a place where intelligent minds are to work together to form articles, not play games and keep using a specific POV!!!!!--Truth Mom (talk) 12:26, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

If necessary I can get the kids in the Middle School class to draw it up, and edit here, and it would be done without all of this arguing. I hope many here take my advice, and think about it and the harm it is causing. No one wins in this situation, it is not a game. It is a horrific murder of Dear Meredith, and fighting over even a simple floor plan is not going to change what is truth or fact, or any of that. I ask to please stop this excessive conflict.--Truth Mom (talk) 12:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The floor plan needs to be put back as soon as the article is unlocked since SuperMarioMan removed it unilaterally without gaining consensus to do so, in violation of Wikipedia policy. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 13:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Both of you; being dramatic is not useful, helpful or an accepted part of this community. There is no harm caused by the lack of an image. For better or worse it was removed, the normal process of consensus will sort that out. Demanding it be put back in on the auspices of unilateral removal isn't a constructive contribution :) I'm trying to be helpful here, because it is really undermining your contributions to these discussions to take such a stance. The conflict here mainly exists because of editors pushing their interpretation of events (pro-guilt or pro-innocence), it is what happens on a controversial topic. And it is a product of a large number of new or single purpose editors without an understanding of Wikipedia's rules, focus and ideology. As I commented elsewhere - for all practical purposes this article will be a mess for many years yet. This is not an uncommon problem, and we do not aim to be "up to the minute" or complete at this stage in the game. For now the best we can really do is manage the facts as best we can and keep out serious policy violations. In a few years when this is all old history someone will be able to put the article together properly. The murder is a sad event, certainly, but if you edit here you should try to adopt a neutral attitude to events, that way our own views do not cloud our ability to edit properly. --Errant ^(chat!) 13:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder, CodyJoeBibby. Perhaps a scroll up and down the page will reveal that the single revert that I made was actually far from a "unilateral" move, but since my opinions of the image have changed to a certain extent in the interim, I see little need to debate this point further. Have you looked at WP:VERIFIABILITY? That page will tell you that an onus is placed on the user who adds or restores material to an article - not the user who removes material from it - to ensure that original research is avoided and that other core policies command adherence. In both recent cases when the image was restored, none of the concerns expressed here at this talk page had been addressed or refuted. At this moment in time, I'm probably neutral with regard to the presence of the floor plan in the article - it provides illustration, but as others have also suggested, it could do with a complete overhaul to give it a more authoritative appearance. Super Mario Man 13:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm fully aware of your ability to game the Wikipedia system and intimidate other users, 'SuperMarioMan'. Regardless of your claims, your unilateral removal of a mere floorplan of the murder scene was an outrage. You had no mandate to carry out this action. Removal of the image seriously affects the ability of a reader to understand the case. Your claim that the image needs 'overhauling' is nothing but filibustering as whatever new image is produced, you will find another objection to it. Why are you so invested in gutting this article? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Dear me. May I request that you tone down the accusations, re-read ErrantX's response further up the page and refrain from assuming such bad faith? I now no longer have much of a clear opinion as to whether the image should be restored or kept out. If it is re-inserted, I won't be making a second removal - perhaps I am therefore not "so invested in gutting this article" as you suggest. You are welcome to interpret the one removal that I have performed (four days ago, I'll add) as an "outrage" without "mandate" - to be frank, far worse allegations have been levelled against me in the time that I have been editing at this topic, and they don't really wash. Super Mario Man 14:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, admin: Errant. Making demands is not the proper may to reach consensus in WP. However, this issue has been discussed to the point of absurdity both in this section and the section on diagram improvements below. There seems to be a clear majority that believe a conceptual diagram for the purpose of illustrating relative locations within the flat is both useful and desired. There has been no compelling argument put forth that the existing diagram is WP:OR or a violation of any copyright. The only argument against the diagram seems to boil down to some editors don’t find the diagram visually appealing. That can be worked on over time if someone wants to do a more ‘professional’ looking illustration. User:John mentioned he might like to take that task on. That user:SuperMM unilaterally decided to remove the diagram should be addressed as well. This isn’t the wild west, there are rules here. If a user: is overstepping his/her authority it’s up to the admins to address it. In the meantime,

‘’MOVE WE VOTE ON CONSENSUS’’’ to illustrate the group’s leanings on this issue.

Support immediate add of diagram — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tjholme (talk • contribs) 14:10, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

’’’SUPPORT’’’ immediate add of diagram CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

’’’SUPPORT’’’ I as well support the immediate addition of the diagram. Were not here to argue over font. I am sure that is not the reasoning behind Wiki to Mr. Wales.--Truth Mom (talk) 14:24, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Cold stop Rather awkwardly, new folks are missing the fact that this isn't the right thread to do this. I began a consensus format yesterday in the thread below Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher#Improving house concept diagram which addresses the map that is currently being discussed. People are continuing to browbeat here when there is no need. Do not create confusion or dilute the process here. Please reserve your commentary and join the proper thread.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:25, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Close thread so the inexperienced will go to the right place.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 14:29, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Things "TO" remember ......... why here and read when you get here.

BE POLITE ASSUME GOOD FAITH NO PERSONAL ATTACKS BE WELCOMING I started this section, as all I as a new comer have seen is constant battle. I do not believe this is in the best interest for Meredith, or ANY involved. This constant war zone comparable to what is going on in the Middle East at this time. , is becoming an outrage to the world wide community. I happen to know of children in school, who are IN Fact studying this case, and it is sad to say why they entrusted Wiki as a HUGE part to do research of this case. They are being failed. Enough, let see that it can be what it represents.

( If this shouldn't be here, or it breaks some sort of rule, well the first rule is as humans, and how we act and how we represent ourself in public view. This is alllllllllll in public view what is going on here. Mr. Wales started Wiki for an asset to that world, and the children and adults to use as a valid resource. NOT to watch a full on conflict go on, like a street fight.) Thank you kindly.........--Truth Mom (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that we have legions of narrowly-focused editors who are not here to contribute to the actual project of building an online encyclopedia, but rather to advance there own perception of (ironic, given your username) "THE TRUTH". These sorts of people have been banned form the article in the past and will continue to be so as long as they are disruptive. This is an article on a murder, and on those who have been convicted of the murdering her. If anyone is here to "prove" someone's guilt or innocence in this case, then you are in the wrong location. Tarc (talk) 16:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

IN all DUE respect I have seen it from both sides. As for my name, I am in my real life, a Mom for TRUTH. Although I happen to be a whole lot more then that, that is unnecessary to state here. The facts on each and every side may be shown or not shown in any given situation, but the TRUTH will always be. No ONE here was there that night, No ONE here actually has the actual TRUTH, hence why this article should be viewed and edited with OPEN eyes. You nor I have no way of knowing the facts that the ones blocked are wrong, or right. That goes for both sides of the fence. The issue is things may or may not be as they seem. This is why it is to be a DISCUSSION not a battle zone area.--Truth Mom (talk) 16:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Truth Mom; as I mentioned above, the conflict is mostly from new editors popping up to push fringe or problematic content int other article. Either to advance their pro-innocence/guilt POV or simply through a lack of understanding of what makes up a credible Wikipedia article. However; "think of Meredith" is exactly the mindset we need to get out of. The best way to become a constructive participant here is to detach ones personal feelings from the editing; approach the subject with objectivity and neutrality. Part of the problem is that single-purpose editors do not do this, creating conflict. Whilst we aim to be a valid resource this is an ongoing event, and there is no practical way to be complete or 100% accurate at this time.

On a final note "think of the children" is a poor piece of rhetoric and does not really serve your argument well --Errant ^(chat!) 16:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you believe the article as it stands is a reasonable reflection of this highly controversial case? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 17:00, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

There is some bad writing and pro-innocence/pro-guilt content, and the sources are generally quite poor. But, trust me, it is not the worst article I have ever seen. We don't plan to create the perfect article overnight, if it takes another 5 years, then that is how long it takes :) and there is no problem with that. My opinion, whenever this sort of discussion comes up, is that there should be a moratorium of at least a few months during which we cannot write about/record a topic. Especially in areas such as this; because it fills up the article with clunky material, nothing is ever clear at the time of the event and most of all it attracts piles of POV warriors who view Wikipedia as a way to get their views out into the world. WP is a historical record. --Errant ^(chat!) 17:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant, There was less conflict before when one POV had control of the article through non-neutral admins who blocked opposing editors and views. The conflict is not mostly do to pro-innocence editors. And the ideas that there is CONTROVERSY on whether the verdict in regards to Knox and Sollecito was correct is NOT FRINGE. That is easily noted by reading any recent news on the case.Issymo (talk)

And the ideas that there is CONTROVERSY on whether the verdict in regards to Knox and Sollecito was correct is NOT FRINGE.; of course. I'm not talking about this. --Errant ^(chat!) 17:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

thisLedRush (talk) 17:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[After multiple ECs]One of the biggest problems is that editors like Tarc and Errant believe what they've written above.

Certain editors and admins here have formed a group intent on trying to ensure that mention of the controversial nature of this case, and all controversy surrounding the trial, investigation, and evidence be whitewashed. They consistently abused WP policy in their quest to ensure that only their POV be expressed. On the other side is a group of less savvy editors, often SPAs, who come in and see the current, POV version of the article and try to edit it without following WP procedures, and often in ways that are even more POV than the current cabal of editors. The actions of both groups reinforces the perceived need for the other group to act the way they do.

Fortunately, after Jimbo showed up here, many admins which protected the group of established POV editors have taken their balls and gone home, and a new group of admins/editors have come with actual open minds. They try and teach the new guys and not constantly slam them for foot faults. They try and mediate disputes based on WP policy, not their personal views of the events. While remnants of the established cabal of abusers remain, still wiki-lawyering, obstructing, and obfuscating in their attempt to ensure an POV article, and while there are still new SPA accounts which overreact to every perceived injustice, at least there is movement to give this article a more balanced approach and a better overall approach.LedRush (talk) 17:12, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Funny thing is, must of what you just said can be applied to you and the legion of SPAs that continuously harass this article. Jimbo's insistence that an anonymous blog be given weight emboldened the pro-Knox camp to push forward with conspiracy theories great and small, beginning to weaken what was a very fair and balanced article. As it stands right at this moment it isn't too bad, though the "Evidence" section is getting a bit dense.

Honestly, what should be done is to look at the contributors to this talk page, and anyone who is editing this topic area exclusively, with zero or near-zero contributions outside of it, should be topic-banned. In any other hot-button topic area...Israel-Palestine, Obama, abortion, Ireland, and the like...this behavior would have been snuffed out, and quickly. Tarc (talk) 17:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as I explicitly called out the SPAs, it would make sense that what I said applies to them. Also, are you accusing me of being an SPA?LedRush (talk) 17:24, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and you have completely misrepresented Jimbo's view. He wanted the article to be more NPOV and teach the controversy. LedRush (talk) 17:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You yourself are not an SPA, no, but you enable and encourage them. And no I did not misrepresent Wales. "Teach the controversy" is the core of the problem; giving equal weight to a minor point of view does not achieve NPOV. As much as you and the one-off accounts may wish it to be so, the "Amanda Knox was framed/setup/railroaded" simply is not a mainstream point of view. Tarc (talk) 19:05, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The controversy is widely reported. Though many in the press and many public figures have concluded that the trial was unfair and that Knox is innocent, I don't believe that people are asking for an edit to the article saying that Knox is innocent, and no one is endorsing the inclusion of any conspiracy theories. People are merely asking that the widely reported controversial and disputed issues be addressed fairly in the article.LedRush (talk) 20:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Tarc, You wrote "what was a very fair and balanced article". I completely disagree that the article was fair and balanced. Jimbo Wales said the same. There are a lot of changes needed for the article to have a NPOV that reflects the controvery involved in the verdict. Ravenfire has requested that we AGF. I would ask you to stop inflaming the situation by using terms like harass the article, anonymous blog, pro-Knox camp, conspiracy theories, beginning to weaken the article. Following all that with a call to topic ban other editors. Are we to believe you're a neutral party after using the term Knox-Camp? I don't believe that one. In one short comment you made several inflamatory statments and it is not helping the situation. It is not okay with me to leave such statements unanswered, but I also don't want the page to bicker. The article only needs to reflect the controversy. It doesn't need to say which view is correct. This is an achievable goal for the article.Issymo (talk) 17:57, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Some other things to also keep in mind. Wikipedia is not about "The Truth" - it's about what reliable sources say. Any fact or conclusion that might be challenged or viewed as controversial must be backed by a verifiable, reliable source. If something is about a living person, those standards go up. Nothing about a living person can be backed by a self-published source, such as a blog. As TruthMom pointed out, personal attacks are bad, and they're getting ugly here. Accusations of cabals, censorship, off-site coordination, wikilawyering need to stop. There's a concept called AGF - assume good faith. This IS a contentious article, which means edits will be challenged. Responding to every challenge with cries of censorship and/or wikilawyering will NOT help anything here. Oddly, that usually only makes it worse. And as one party ceases to AGF, so will others, until eventually this resembles something from the Climate Change articles, or Israel-Palenstine. Most experienced editors will help new editors, but when that help is rejected, thrown in their face or minimal AGF is shown from new editors, that help ceases. It's not one side or the other, folks. It's all sides. Everyone. Think about it. Take your words, and imagine them used against you (because eventually, it will happen).

Something you'll see linked to here is WP:THEREISNODEADLINE. There should not be a rush to get everything out in the article immediately. It's going to be there tomorrow. And the next day. And the day after. And it will always be changing. It doesn't need to be done "right now", if some more work results in a better article that all editors can support. Legitimate complaints about the previous state of the article and editing tone were raised and have resulting in changes. You (all editors) have a choice to make about what the tone will be going forward. Expect the harshest tone you use to be used by everyone else, and consider what the environment here will be like. Ravensfire (talk) 17:28, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

While I generally agree with your comments, and I do believe that we don't need to rush to make all changes immediately, we should remember that there is an active trial going on and the people ruling on the trial are encouraged to read up about the subjects. It is important that we don't leave conclusory statements about evidence or facts surrounding the murder if there are legitimate, RSs which indicate that there is controversy around such evidence/facts.LedRush (talk) 17:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a deadline. The appeal is ongoing and as it stands this article is misinforming or inadequately informing people who could, for all we know, have influence on the appeal in some way. This talk of 'there is no deadline' is just filibustering. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Cody, I share your concerns, but Raven is referring to a well accepted WP guideline about patiently editing the article. It is helpful in keeping down inflamed tensions. He is not filibustering. I understand that you feel passionately about this subject, but being over-anxious and aggressive will likely hurt your position.LedRush (talk) 18:29, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

If this article is/was so terrible...

If this article is/was so terrible and included "conclusory statements about evidence or facts surrounding the murder if there are legitimate," or "is becoming an outrage to the world wide community," or that whatever other heinous evil things are in the article, why, exactly, is all of the time being spent by LedRush, Wikid77 and the masses of new, single-purpose accounts on adding random pictures, timelines and excessive lists of evidence, as opposed to pointing out these problematic statements and correcting them? I'd ask that before the next outrageous comment about how evil the article is gets made, someone come up with an actual problem with the text - not some random Sherlock Holmes style "proof-of-innocence if only I could add it," request, but a real problem with the existing text, and propose a fix. If LedRush, Wikid77 and the masses of new, single-purpose accounts are unwilling to do so, I suggest that future protestations be ignored with great prejudice. Hipocrite (talk) 18:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

DONE. See topic below "Arguing against details...". -Wikid77 18:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
That section fails to suggest a fix, instead merely including long quotations in italian and extorting us to fix the article. If you can't propose a specific fix, then you aren't fixing the article. Hipocrite (talk) 19:00, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I have a suggestion. In the introduction to the article describing what happened to the victim, the phrase 'there was evidence of sexual contact' is used. While this is true, why can't the phrase be more complete and accurate and say 'there was evidence of sexual contact by Rudy Guede'? There is no evidence whatsoever that the victim was sexually assaulted by Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito.

The article as it stands skates just on the right side of being outright misleading by omitting a lot of information. That's the problem with it. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It is your opinion that there was "no evidence whatsoever that the victim was sexually assaulted by Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito." There is another opinion, reliably sourced, that the victim was sexually assaulted by all three. Why do you believe your personal opinion should be included in fact while theirs should be excluded? Further, I had already removed that statement from the lede - here. You might wish to try convincing LedRush that the lede is over detailed, and the addition of the extraneous detail causes problems - it is LedRush who reverted me, here, or Wikid77, who initially wrote that statement here. I find it deeply ironic and telling that the only problem you have with the article was inserted by Wikid77. Hipocrite (talk) 19:15, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]I would like to point you to the fact that I have been making specific suggestions and edits regarding witnesses and forensic evidence for the last couple of weeks. Because of the amount of filibustering and obstructionism on this article, and the amount of time I have to devote to each individual topic, it seems best to focus on one or two issues at a time. As I have. Because your edit above is clearly erroneous, I would hope that you would have the decency to edit out your personal attack, and otherwise cease your constant harassment of me.LedRush (talk) 19:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

If there's a section I missed where you proposed a specific edit backed by reliable secondary sources, by all means please link it. Hipocrite (talk) 19:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]No thank you. You can just see the sections above relating to new witnesses, the sections relating to DNA evidence, or my history of actually editing the article to include these details over the last weeks. Why should I have to spend the time pouring over all my edits merely because of your harassment and accusations when you can't even bother to take the time to look into something yourself before engaging in unsubstantiated personal attacks? If you want to attack someone directly, get some direct evidence. And try not to deliberately distort that evidence.LedRush (talk) 19:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I reviewed the section above pertaining to new witnesses. No specific edit to the article is suggested - instead, you merely use the talk page as a holding (and arguing) area. I reviewed the section relating to "DNA evidence" started by you (Archive 29). Again, no specific edit to the article is suggested - instead, you merely use the talk page as a holding (and arguing) area. I reviewed your history of editing the article over the last weeks. In addition to a 4rr violation that caused the article to get protected, you have also added unreliable SPS's, and reverted edits that corrected the problems others complain about (below.) I find your edits to this talk page and the article dilatory and counterproductive, and suggest that if you don't have specific changes that you can concretely propose, that you get out of the way. Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 19:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems odd that you were unable to find specific edits or suggestions for edits, seeing as they are quite numerous. I have made numerous concrete suggestions regarding:

1. The homeless witness self-confessing to being a heroin addict on heroin at the time he saw AK and RS (I suggested and/or enacted several changes with this regard, and introduced at least 2 new sources into the article)

2. The homeless witness contradicting himself (I suggested and or enacted several changes in this regard)

3. The homeless witness being contradicted by 6 other witnesses (I have made suggestions of adding this information to the article, with RSs, above)

4. Regarding the sufficiency of the DNA evidence (I found several sources discussing the issue and made numerous suggestions on how to incorporate it; ultimately, new information was added after compromise)

5. Regarding the new DNA evidence ( I made several concrete suggestions and/or changes to the article and introduced a couple of new citations into the text itself, expanding the appeals section.

These are examples just off the top of my head. Your continued personal attacks and unwillingness to engage in constructive discussion seems designed to force constructive editors to spend more time dealing with your harassment so they cannot devote time to improving the article. I suggest you stop these attacks and focus time on actually improving the article. Thanks!LedRush (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Did you miss my suggestion above or are you just ignoring it? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I responded directly to your suggestion above. You can read my comment here. I note that your proposed edit did not have reliable secondary sources that supported it, that it expressed one POV as fact, and that the section you had a problem with I had already attempted to remove, and that it was added by Wikid77, and revert-warred back in by LedRush, which leads me to question who, exactly, you believe is to fault for the problems with this article. Hipocrite (talk) 19:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interested in hearing about your disputes with other editors. What is your reliably sourced opinion that the victim was sexually assaulted by all three? I don't want to hear speculation, I'm talking about DNA evidence on or in the body of the victim. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

All three were convicted in Italian courts of assaulting the victim, as I believe you are aware. You are saying that only Guide's DNA was found on the body - that is a different statement than the earlier statement, that it was fact that only Guide assaulted her. Please make every attempt to be precise in your language. Hipocrite (talk) 19:37, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I asked you for your source that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito sexually assaulted the victim. I'm talking about what forensic evidence was found to indicate that they carried out a sexual assault on the victim. Your sophistry, appeal to authority and evasion of the question tells me what i need to know about you. Thank you, no need to reply. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The article never states that "Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito sexually assaulted the victim." Your request is a red herring. I will not debate the case with you here, merely the article. Hipocrite (talk) 19:45, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't state they didn't sexually assault the victim either. For the sake of clarity, the article should state that only Rudy Guede is forensically proven to have sexually assaulted the victim. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It certainly should not - that's only one PoV. Another PoV believes the forensic proof on the knife and bra clapse is enough to prove that Knox and Sollecito sexually assaulted the victim. That you think that PoV is misguided or wrong doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Please stop trying to push your PoV. Hipocrite (talk) 20:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

DNA on a knife or bra clasp is not proof of sexual assault. If you have sources that say it is, then cite the sources. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:19, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Both were convicted of the crime. Hipocrite (talk) 20:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

This section was started and written for everyone to take a breathe and step back and look. Did everyone do that? hmmmm . I would like to Thank you Raven as you in fact grasped the meaning of what this all meant, as it was attempted by some to twist it and make it into something, That was not the purpose to be projected. As for the statement regarding the children....... I am fully aware are all of you that a school, yes a Middle school class, is IN FACT studying this case. They are of the age of 14. They are in FACT reading all of this horrific disputing going on. So do not address me that my points are NOT valid. This is out of control, and NOT beneficial to anyone in this way. --Truth Mom (talk) 20:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Truth Mom; complex and long winded discussions are what happens to develop articles like this. Trying to shame people by talking about 14 year old children reading the article is not constructive. To everyone else here; this is getting out of hand. Can we run this down and get back to discussing the article. --Errant ^(chat!) 20:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

This has been out of hand, the exact reason I posted the section I did.--Truth Mom (talk) 21:00, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Arguing against details empowers poor sources of news

Recent news has been given high importance, uncontested due to a lack of related details in the article, caused by constant bickering to prevent details (or diagrams) from being added to the article. For example, there has been talk of the bra clasp as being "rusted" but the Massei Report noted it is made of aluminum, which is slow to corrode. Also, the implication is that if the clasp is "rusted" then no analysis of DNA could be expected. However, the amount of DNA collected was sufficient to allow a 2nd, independent re-test, as stated in the Italian Massei Report [p. 207], "l'analisi poteva anche ripetersi e aggiungeva che il 'DNA che si estrae viene conservato nelle migliori condizioni possibili e quindi in ambiente refrigerato tra i meno 25 e i meno 28 gradi centigradi'..." (translation: "the analysis could also be repeated, and she added that the 'DNA which is extracted is kept in the best possible conditions, and therefore, in a refrigerated environment between −25 and −28 °C [−13 and −18 °F]'..." - see Massei English version, p. 199). The Massei Report further states that the 2nd sample might be damaged by the refrigeration, and the 1st sample matched a 6-to-1 concentration of Kercher DNA to Sollecito DNA profile, and there was no indication if the 2nd sample contained both, or would only match Kercher DNA. Those are the types of details which readers should be allowed to read (perhaps in a bottom section of "Detailed forensics"), as noting the 2-hook bra clasp was made of aluminum, and Sollecito's profile only matched the hooks and not the attached fabric, but there is another sample which can be tested for the hooks (which might contain only Kercher DNA). If the article contained more details, such as those, then readers would be better prepared when reading news reports about the appeals trial. Arguing to deny details is ruining the article. -Wikid77 18:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

No specific proposal for an edit is provided in this section. Please propose a specific edit, along with reliable secondary sources. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The problem is... saying "X says that the strap was rusted, but it was made of aluminum" is basically WP:SYNTH (unless of course we have a source that says this). A better approach would be to stub most of the detail (especially detail on the evidence) for some reasonable length of time - that way we can then write it as retrospective. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:00, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Statement of Curatolo regarding the house being within sight of the cottage

From the article "This homeless man testified that he had seen Knox and Sollecito chatting animatedly on a basketball court, within sight of Kercher's house, around five times, between 9.30 and midnight on the night of the murder,[70]" This statement is untrue. I would like to suggest that it is taken out of the article. It is plain to see by anyone looking at google maps or google earth that it would be impossible to see the house from the basketball court. It is just not possible. Here is a map that shows that shows that this statement is untrue. https://picasaweb.google.com/sutsujme/BASKETBALLCOURTSQUARE#5593296765768118850

This photo shows the line of sight from the girls apartment to the driveway gate, and from the gate to the square. As you can see it is not possible to see the girls apartment from the square.

[A] is the girls’ apartment. [B] is the entrance to the girls apartment. [C] is Piazza Grimana. As you can see it’s not possible to see the apartment from Piazza Grimana.

The blue line is line of sight from the square to the girls' driveway gate.

The red line is line of sight from the girls' apartment to the driveway gate..

Or..go ahead and try street view in google earth. You can “stand” right in the basketball court and see for yourself that you cannot see the house. There is a building in the way. Curatolo’s statement is not possible and is just another example of the lies and misinformation propagated by the prosecution and the media. The Wiki article should present only facts.Turningpointe (talk) 19:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

There are a number of problems here. First you have researched this material, that's the wrong approach. We need a reliale secondary source that refutes the claim. Secondly the line is not inaccurate; he appears very much to have testified this. The line does not deal whether the information is true, could be true or whatever else. :) --Errant ^(chat!) 20:04, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

However, reviewing the sources, as with most of the information in the article it is so churned up as to be inaccurately reflecting the content of the sources. So it will need to be fixed. The whole paragraph sets out to destroy the witness as well, which needs to be toned down somewhat... --Errant ^(chat!) 20:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean 'destroy the witness'? Clarify exactly what you mean by that and do not edit this article without getting consensus, thank you. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:12, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It approaches the guy very negatively introducing him as a heroin-addicted homeless man :) Makes the sentence very loooong and clunky. I tweaked the wording to remove the stuff about "within sight" because it is not in the source and tried to improve the English a bit. Please do not demand people do not edit the article without consensus, if there are issues with this cleanup then do please raise them. And if they are serious feel free to revert to the previous wording while we discuss. However it seems relatively non-controversial :) --Errant ^(chat!) 20:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm raising the issue now. You do NOT have consensus to make changes. There are too many changes to this article as it is. The witness IS a heroin-addicted homeless man. You have absolutely no right to censor that information. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Luckily I haven't. Feel free to check what I have changed before commenting :) Please understand the process of making edits on Wikipedia. Generally there is no need to get consensus to implement an edit, if it seems good and non-controversial go and do it. Then if someone sees an issue with the change they will raise it on the talk page. If the change is seriosly problematic (BLP issues, mangles something, misrepresents a source etc.) then it may be appropriate to revert to the previous wording while the content is discussed. You can't simply say I must attain consensus for every edit on the article. --Errant ^(chat!) 20:28, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]I think it is not a good idea to selectively introduce evidence that makes a situation look one way. When you say that a witness saw AK and RS near the scene of the crime, it has an impression on a reader. When, over time, you say that the man was admittedly homeless, a heroin addict, and high on heroin at the time he saw them, it makes the other information seem different to an impartial reader. Why make the first sentence in a way that you later have to undo because you know it is misleading? It is better for the reader, and more NPOV, to clearly indicate that he was homeless and high on heroin at the time (both self confessed and backed by undisputed RSs). It is also relevant that he contradicted himself (also reported), was contradicted by 6 other witnesses (also reported) and has been used as a prosecution witness in 2 other murder trials (also reported). We are just reporting all the relevant facts without making conclusions (we aren't saying he didn't see what he says he saw, but we are providing the reader with the tools to make their own determination). It seems a great injustice to the reader, and probably a BLP issue, to provide just some part of the relevant facts that RSs have reported.LedRush (talk) 20:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I just re-ordered it to read a little more logically. He gave some evidence, then there are some concerns that discredit him. Chronologically it works in that order too. I see no reason why it is misleading to present it in that order, it is certainly less confusingly worded now. Why is it desperately important to establish his testimony has problems before we say what he testified? Surely neutrally this is the simplest way to present it. It is not as if the sentence discrediting him is paragraphs further down :) --Errant ^(chat!) 20:37, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]Well, I think I was arguing for neutral presentation above, so I am not sure what your italicized statement is trying to say. I argued why it is important to accurately identify the witness on first blush above. When you read that a witness saw something, the inclination is not to question it. Why let that get established in a reader's head when we can very easily, with two adjectives, present an accurate, and not misleading, picture of what happened from the get go. It doesn't matter when we learned that he was on heroin when he saw what he says he saw...what is important is that he was on heroin at that time.LedRush (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, I argue my approach is neutral too! :) The converse argument works as well; if a reader sees that this is a homeless drug addict, who contradicted his testimony and has been a witness a number of times then they're quite likely going to ignore what testimony he gave. Anyway; I don't think such thinking should concern us - we can only present the facts, and the simplest way to do so is chronologically. It also strikes me as clunky to list the problems with a witness and only then say what he testified ;) I highly doubt people are going to be so swayed by my first sentence that they will gloss over the second. --Errant ^(chat!) 20:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

But isn't that the point? In your example, if we gave all the pertinent info at once, your hypothetical reader would discount the witness. By hiding the relevant info until a complete statement about AK and RS being witnessed near the scene of the crime is read distorts how your hypothetical reader would view this if he knew everything at once. By cutting up and separating the info, you change how people perceive it. This is avoided by simply adding two adjectives which are in several, undeniably reliable sources.LedRush (talk) 22:00, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow entirely. I don't agree with either argument BTW, was just showing you that what you were saying could be turned on it's head. My main point is that it's not really a concern. I don't think there is a need to cram it into one sentence just in case a hypothetical reader draws the wrong conclusion (I mean, what conclusion are you suggesting is drawn?!). I mean, I'm not married to the current phrasing, and if swapping "witness" for "homeless heroin-addict" is desperately important I'm not going to dispute it, but from a readers perspective it doesn't scan as well :) --Errant ^(chat!) 22:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Curatolo is also currently serving 18 months in prison for selling heroin and has another court date coming up in November for selling cocaine. How is that information not in the article? How is his career as a professional murder case witness not there? This article is such a joke. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:38, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not certain him being in jail currently is necessarily pertinent, we do say he is a drug user which is of more direct relevance (though if a source presents a decent case for it being useful then I'd consider supporting it). The information about being a regular witness is in the article. --Errant ^(chat!) 20:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I can only assume your comment is a joke. Are you suggesting that being a convicted drug dealer serving a prison sentence does not affect a witnesses credibility? Are you suggesting we should withold the information that the witness is currently in jail for drug dealing and faces further charges from the reader? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:47, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Whether or not it affects it remains a matter of opinion. Looking past one's personal views, have any reliable sources connected the drugs problems with witness credibility? Wikipedia reports the findings of reliable sources - it does not overstate them and thus move into the realm of insinuation, nor does it posit side statements with conclusions thus left unspoken. Super Mario Man 20:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]The RSs reported that he was on heroin, a heroin addict, and a repeat prosecution witness. Because it is notable and verifiable, we do to.LedRush (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]Also, when you're in jail and a witness for the prosecution, that is always relevant. However, he wasn't in jail at the time of the first trial, right? If that's the case, the info shouldn't be listed until the appeals section.LedRush (talk) 20:55, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm not really sure. The sources I am reading ATM make a credible argument for drug abuse clouding his judgement & recollection, so that seems relevant. Dealing and being in prison... *shrug* there is only so much detail worth going into. As I said, have you got reliable source for this information, that way we can assess the relevance (remember, we need to rely on RS's for arguments on relevance) --Errant ^(chat!) 20:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

This is going to sound more flippant than I intend, but are you expecting that the RSs say that some sentences in there articles are notable, while others aren't? The RSs say he was in jail at the time of the trial. I think it is relevant that a prosecution witness is in jail, which is why that question is always asked in trial, and why it was asked (and the question was reported on) in this case.LedRush (talk) 21:01, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

That's why the info is feature so prominently in the AP article (the second sentence of the AP article).LedRush (talk) 21:04, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, I just mean if the source makes a credible use of the material in a relevant way is all. The example you highlight seems sufficient to add, in the appeals section, something like "who was in jail at the time" or something. --Errant ^(chat!) 21:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

He's in Capanne prison for heroin dealing. He faces further charges for cocaine dealing in November. He is homeless. He could not even answer the question as to why he was in prison when he appeared in court. He confessed to being a heroin user. His confused testimony helped to put two people in prison for life. If you think those cold hard facts are not relevant and significant for readers of this article then i don't really konw what to say. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 21:05, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

He admitted in court he was under the influence of Heroine--Truth Mom (talk) 21:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC) that night.

Exactly, Truth Mom. You and I and any other normal person would say 'Wait a minute - this guy's an addict - his testimony can't be reliable!' But seemingly on Wikipedia, these normal concerns don't apply. In fact there's no need to even tell the reader about Curatolo's drug convictions and the fact that he is in prison! No wonder Wikipedia's a laughing stock. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 22:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether it is more accurate to say that he admitted to being a heroin user or whether he just said it. Probably depends what POV you are pushing. The trial jury felt that his testimony was reliable nevertheless. The appeal jury? We'll just have to wait and see. Or we could radically prejudge. Why is the article not at pains to stress Knox and Sollecito's drug use?

This issue probably does deserve a decent amount of coverage since, in contrast to the other arguments for the defence showcased in our article, this is at least a line being actively pursued by the defence. However, it would be better to outline the arguments on either side, rather than going for the sourced but inaccurate claim that his testimony was contradictory. It wasn't, it was contested. We should explain how. --FormerIP (talk) 00:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, his testimony contradicted itself enough that the AP report suggested he could be lying and the title of the Washington Post report says that he contradicted himself. At times he gave evidence that indicated he saw them on the night of Oct 31, and at times it was Nov 1. He did this in many ways, and it is well reported and well referenced. Even the prosecution tacitly acknowledged that by saying the witness was reliable, if not precise.

Regarding to the witness admitting drug use, that is again straight out of the source. I don't have a strong opinion on the word, but it seems fair to stick to what the sources actually say, especially when they are rock solid as these are.LedRush (talk) 01:26, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Again, it all depends what POV you are pushing. He gave evidence that indicated various things according to your POV. I agree that there are legitimate questions about his testimony, but "contradictory" is just the sloppy journalism of the source. How was it contradictory? This hinges on how receptive you are to the defence thesis about buses. I don't live in Perguia so I would be hesitant to state for sure. Our article also doesn't live in Perugia, and I would suggest, possibly in vain, that it is possible to be perfectly neutral and accurate without building the article around statements from the defence. --FormerIP (talk) 01:34, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

This isn't my view...it's the view of the RSs who covered this event. And the contradictions are spelled out clearly in the article, enough so that one even suggests he could have been lying at one point. This isn't coming from The Daily Beast, Dempsey, or some tabloid, it's iron clad. I don't want to push any POV here: I want to state clearly what the RSs state. By changing it to say something else, we are either doing OR or pushing a POV (or, probably, both.)LedRush (talk) 01:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, if you just want to cover the RS, it may be appropriate to cover the fact that the witness was (oh my goodness I hope no children are reading this) a heroin user. It may also be appropriate to cover what the prosecution lawyer and the lawyer for the Kercher family said in the Washington Post article. Perhaps not, it all depends what POV you are pushing. Fact is, it is not unusual for homeless people to testify in criminal cases, because they are outdoors when other people are not. What's a big deal is whether the jury believe him, and whether they have reasonable grounds not to. --FormerIP (talk) 02:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

He admitted it, and actually was proud that he is an addict. Enough said.--Truth Mom (talk) 02:11, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

He actually was proud? I'm not surprised. That's homeless Italians for you. --FormerIP (talk) 02:14, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it has anything to do with being Italian.--Truth Mom (talk) 02:48, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Uh-huh. --FormerIP (talk) 02:51, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I happen to be Italian so that is not a remark that should be made Thank you kindly--Truth Mom (talk) 02:53, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Uh-huh. --FormerIP (talk) 02:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The fact is, the appeals court, which hasn't been meeting much, spent two whole days hearing testimony surrounding this guy's original testimony. Curatolo s openly admitted to being high on heroin is pretty significant. C'mon, let's not get ridiculous. Where do we draw the line then? So can we not mention he was homeless? Can we not mention he was high on heroine the night he supposedly saw the suspects? Can we not mention that was arrested for drug dealing? FormerIP, you write "Fact is, it is not unusual for homeless people to testify in criminal cases". First of all, this is disingenuous as it can be applied to anybody. Doctors, skydivers, hunters, magicians and every kind of person you can think of is not an unusual person to testify in a criminal case. Go to a courthouse some time, every walk of person is well represented over there. But I can tell you that ANY lawyer would use the fact that he was a heroin addict, drug dealer, and convicted felon in prison, to impeach his credibility. If a jury believes him, fine---but then by your principle you seem to say then wikipedia should just ignore these facts?

As for the "contradiction", if you want to make it more neutral, just say that several newspapers reported that Curatolo contradicted himself. I don't actually think this kind of verbiage is necessary, but it might somewhat of a compromise. Here's another source saying the testimony was contradictory:

Saturday’s main attraction was Antonio “Toto” Curatolo, a 53-year-old homeless man and self-described lifelong drug addict and “anarchist”. Curatolo was a key witness for the prosecution in the original trial, testifying that he saw Knox and Sollecito together near the scene of the crime the night of November 1, 2007, when Kercher was murdered. Back then, his testimony was considered dubious, and appellate judge Claudio Pratillo Hellman called him back this past weekend to clear up a few questions. Instead, he created even more confusion. Yes, he said he saw Knox and Sollecito “talking excitedly” not far from the parkbench along the basketball court where he was living at the time. “As sure as I am sitting here,” he said, he was just as sure that the very next day, the police and “men in white uniforms”—the forensic experts who he called “extraterrestrials”—were at the house where Kercher was killed.

Then, without much prompting at all, Curatolo contradicted himself, describing how the night he saw Knox and Sollecito, there were also people in Halloween costumes and shuttle buses taking revelers to the local discothèques. “The two young people were talking intensely to each other," he told the court. "In the piazza that night young people in masks were coming and going and buses were leaving for the nightclubs."

Of course, that can’t possibly be true. If Curatolo saw Knox and Sollecito against the backdrop of disco buses and Halloween costumes, it wasn’t the night before the murder. Instead, it had to have been two nights before, on Halloween, even though neither Knox nor Sollecito were anywhere near the basketball court that night. Knox was working at La Chic pub and Sollecito was elsewhere in town.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-03-28/amanda-knox-appeal-homeless-mans-contradictory-testimony/

Here is an article from the Independent describing the testimony as contradictory (2 paragraphs up from the below quotes):

"In the first trial, Curatolo placed Knox and her co-defendant and ex-boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito, in a square near the house on the night of the murder. He said the two were chatting and added that he remembered seeing buses in the square. Yesterday he repeated that he saw the two "talking excitedly" in the square and said he thought it was Halloween night. That would have been the night before the 1 November murder, but he was unclear when Halloween night actually is. Despite the date confusion, he repeatedly said that he saw young people dressed up in costumes.

But, at another point, he also said he clearly remembers seeing police at the house the morning after he saw Knox and Sollecito in the square. Police went to the crime scene on 2 November, when Kercher's body was found, stabbed to death and lying in a pool of blood."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/knox-prosecution-witness-now-has-second-thoughts-2254128.html

And then the guardian:

"Lawyers appealing against the convictions of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for murdering British student Meredith Kercher have claimed an important victory in court, as a key witness for the prosecution gave confusing and contradictory testimony.... Curatolo's evidence in their trial helped persuade a jury to sentence Knox to 26 years and Sollecito to 25 years in prison for the murder of Kercher, an exchange student from Coulsdon, Surrey.....But at the appeal hearing, Curatolo, 54, got dates mixed up and appeared confused."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/26/amanda-knox-appeal-contradictory-testimony

And if you want, thought I don't reccommend it, you can even quote the daily mail on it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1370207/Amanda-Knox-appeal-Foxy-Knoxys-hopes-boosting-key-witness-changes-story.html

FormerIP, do you have anything outside of original research to show why the above passages are misguided? (GeniusApprentice (talk) 04:29, 9 April 2011 (UTC))

This is outright silly. The guy stated that he was using heroin everyday and he is currently in prison. This is all relevant stuff. If Curatolo testified that Amanda and Raffaele had nothing to do with the crime, FormerIP would be demanding that the heroin use and prison term be added to the article. The tactics used here are obvious. Its time for a neutral voice to step in here and stop this nonsense. BruceFisher (talk) 03:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The judge actually had him removed from the court room, as he was so disgusted as to the proud way he boasted of his drug use. I also resent the statement made by FormerIP, regarding it as an Italian Homeless thing. It has NOT a thing to do with Italian or homeless, and that was a very unnecessary statement. This is a discussion, and it needs to remain civil.--Truth Mom (talk) 04:43, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

General comments

I revisit the article every few days and I believe that the present article as it reads now reflects more of a NPOV than previously. Despite the fuss and back and forth it is getting better, in my opinion.

I still feel that things in the article that are presented as fact but still very uncertain to be an actual fact, even if backed by a RS, should be either left out or both sides presented with different sources. Just a few comments on some of the things that I think need changing. The reference in Micheli to the body being moved and/or arranged after death (#29) was not subscribed to by Massei (if I remember correctly). This should be removed or a comment added. On Guede, there is still some confusion over his sentencing and fast track reduction as I covered in a previous edit request. It is listed as a 30 year sentence in the first trial (correct but he would still get a one-third reduction due to the fast track to 20 years), and 16 years on appeal (not correct, the Borsini Motivation changes his sentence from 30 to 24 years (which makes his actual time served now 16 years after the one-third fast track reduction). It should not be listed one way (30 years-without fast track reduction) and then another (16 years with a fast track reduction). There is a statement that Guede was charged with theft and this is not correct as he was not charged or convicted of theft. This is listed as citation needed but a reading of the Micheli report makes it clear that no theft charges or conviction for theft occurred. The article makes it seem as though Guede was originally tied to the murder through his DNA and it is my understanding that the original link to Guede was his fingerprints on file with the police (because he was an immigrant-photo and fingerprints of immigrants required under Italian law) and then later the DNA was confirmed to be his.

The book by Fiorenza Sarzanini (Amanda and the Others) does not belong on the book list. Although this is a known journalist, the paper and the journalist were sued and Amanda won over this book. It is not a true "reference" in my opinion, unless your are interested in the sex lives and private information of the people involved, others including people that were either witnesses or friends.RoseMontague (talk) 11:30, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Dispute resolution

At this point it is clear the article will not and cannot progress without a formal resolution process. We have some editors who have expressed statements making it very clear that they think this article should minimize all mention of important views on the topic just because they disagree with them and wrongly portray them as the views of a tiny minority (the wholly discredited WP:FRINGE argument). They have also demonstrated that they will ignore consensus and edit war on even minor content to get their way. Further, when they do so the article either has to stay the way they want or they edit war some more and get it locked down, preventing any other edits to improve it. In other words, since no admin has yet stepped in to stop their bad behavior, and indeed a few of them are admins who previously abused their admin status to advance their side, they are essentially rewarded for breaking policies and engaging in obstructionist behavior by having the article locked from future changes. That's a masterful bit of gaming the system right there.

I think between previous actions and the BLP notice board and ANI posts about this, an RFC would be redundant. Mediation might work, but it's always a gamble that you get a mediator who knows what he or she is doing, and I think it was already tried. I think, however, that jumping straight to ArbCom will not work yet as they want to see more evidence of trying to work things out. Any thoughts? DreamGuy (talk) 17:58, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

How DO we get an Admin to step in and stop their behavior? I agree with your discription of the situation. The whole fight over the diagram has made this clear.Issymo (talk) 06:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it is premature to ask for further dispute resolution. I will be back on task this week, spending a couple of hours per day on this article (if things go as expected). I will be acting as an ordinary editor, not as an admin, but I am hopeful that I can bring all sides to some level of agreement.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know.. I've warned some people for bad behaviour, mistakes and thoughtless/incidendary comments (including yourself as it happens). I think the next sensible step is to crack down on people moaning about "gaming" of the system, POV pushers and various other accusations with the reminder that if evidence exists of these things the talk page is not the place to get it resolved (rather, take it to the relevant noticeboard). That should be sufficient. Things do seem to be moving though - there was an issue raised above the myself and LedRush worked through and we eventually came out with some improved content. The image is gaining support and hopefully someone will have time to make the necessary improvements that will probably gain it full support. etc etc. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:12, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant, You recently implied that pro-innocence editors were causing most of the conflict by pushing their Fringe POV. I am therefore very leary of you saying the next step is to crack down on people who are moaning about things and post on the correct board. As pointed out before, the reason there is more conflict recently is because one point of view was blocked and deleted before. I hope this is not the case that you believe the problem will be solved by reverting to that standard.Issymo (talk) 04:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Issy; no, not what I said at all. We have pro-* editors active on the page. My observation is that pro-innocence is currently a) the most vocal and b) the most disruptive. But pro-guilt people appear to be active as well. Many of both types appear to be no problem. On the other hand some do appear to be a problem, attacking editors and not the content, and failing to apply policy correctly. Tensions are frayed, so people do silly things and it all spirals out of hand. The idea is not to block or delete an POV, rather it is to stop people writing threads such as this which do zero for improving article content and are simply insinuating the existence of a problem, in the wrong forum, without sufficient evidence. If these problems exists (and they may well do) there is a correct forum for raising them. At the moment such insinuations are being used to try and win arguments, and that is disruptive --Errant ^(chat!) 07:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

My observation, for whatever it may be worth, is that we have pro- and anti- editors active on the page, and some of them have been equally disruptive. The last thing I was involved with on the page was in answering a highly disruptive argument about a very simple statement of obvious fact, easily sourced. The statement is now in the article, meticulously (and, to some extent, ridiculously) sourced. Having said that, I do agree very much with Errant that threads about behavior aren't nearly as productive as threads about content, and so I hope we can all agree to spend a few days trying not to have drama but just focus in a very boring and meticulous way on sourcing the article as carefully as possible.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like we are moving toward the same problem this article dealt with in the past. Just get rid of the people that have raised their voice to the problems that clearly exist here and all will be well. If you ban everyone then the talk page might calm down but Wikipedia fails. I am amazed that certain people refuse to see what is actually happening here. The diagram is a perfect example. That diagram was removed because one side doesn't like the person who created it. If a person on their side created the diagram there would be no debate. One user who claims to be neutral on the diagram did a bold revert anyway. Why? If you go look at the talk pages of these users you will see that this small group are all friends. I could hire a firm to draw up a professional floor plan and it would be instantly attacked here. Excuses would be made that I didn't use exact measurements or that I put the bidet in the wrong place. Its not about the diagram. Its about a small group of people that are hellbent on controlling this article at all costs. Your proposed solution is to ban people like me that have stood up to that group. I don't expect the article to read as I want it to read. That would be ridiculous. What I do want is a neutral view presented in the article. That is currently not the case. I am asking that neutral voices come here to look at the situation and help to resolve it. Jimbo Wales came here briefly and had many concerns. He was attacked by the same group that removed the diagram. One user had the nerve to ask him why he even thought to come take a look. Jimbo was surprised by the hostility shown to him and I am honestly surprised that he was shown such little respect. He is a busy man and I am sure he doesn't have time to work on this article. Where are the neutral administrators? Why hasn't a neutral voice come in to look at what is happening? Someone needs to stand up and do what's right. This has gone on far too long. I am sure this comment violates a dozen Wikipedia guidelines. You can post links to all of those guidelines or you can step back, look at the big picture, then try to do something positive to make Wikipedia a better place. What will it be? BruceFisher (talk) 00:35, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It looks to me as if the intent of the editors Dreamguy speaks of above is not as clear to some is it might be. A perusal of the entire history of the article reveals objections made, improvements offered, objections made, material added, taken down, improved and added again, taken down again then re-added and taken down again with new objections midst a tag team of editors (those Dreamguy refers to in his post above) Wikilawyering details, requesting new sources, denying the validity of established ones ad infinitum then demanding disputed info be taken to a more "relevant notice board". That somewhere in all of this two individuals managed to come out with any "improved content" - somewhat of a boast made with what seems a certain degree of amazement - is not at all an indication that things are improving. The fact that Users who disagree or have continuously voiced disapproval with the POV the article has taken have not been banned lately is not a sign of improvement. That the image was removed the last time is indicative that nothing much has changed and won't; there are new eyes here so certain behaviors may be curbed for a time but the overall intent of the editors remains clear; it is the same as it ever was. Until such time as the article can reflect a true picture of the controversies surrounding the case it should be concealed from public view. Deserved or not, Wiki has a certain credibility with the public and, even with the disclaimer at the top of the page, it is unlikely any will walk away from reading it any better informed than they would be by reading the 2 sites that are dedicated to the prosecutors continuance of the convictions and the character assassination of 2 individuals and their families.Fancourt (talk) 00:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I could not agree more. I think it would serve everyone best if this article was removed from public view until all appeals have been exhausted and the decisions finalized. BruceFisher (talk) 01:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree 500% with everything said above, this is absolutely out of hand and ridiculous. --Truth Mom (talk) 02:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't. I think Bruce's suggestion would embarrassingly show the world that Wikipedia cannot control its editors, has capitulated to POV pushers, and has lost the ability to enforce its own policies. How the current situation will somehow magically change after the appeal/s decisions are known is beyond me because the warring will just change tack unless policies are rigidly enforced. My 2C. Moriori (talk) 02:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it would show that certain topics are not appropriate for Wikipedia. This case is ongoing and there is great concern that public opinion can adversely affect the outcome of the trial. The lawsuit pending against Lifetime for a movie they aired wrongly depicting the case is a good example to show that public opinion is a real concern. If there is genuine concern about Wikipedia looking like it cannot control its editors then this article should be removed immediately because it is a perfect example of a situation that is out of control. BruceFisher (talk) 03:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Much as I just said, Wikipedia would be showing the world it cannot control its editors. Heaven forbid. Moriori (talk) 03:31, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Various calls for the article to, in some manner, be restricted from public view seem ill-informed with regard to Wikipedia policies. I do not believe that there is standing precedent for taking pages off-line unless WP:BLP violations are blatant (i.e. false statements are so egregious and endemic that a major blanking and revision deletion is merited) and the continued presence of the article in question, in its cuurent state, would be tantamount to the project endorsing libel. I think that some of the arguments expressed above are quite exaggerating and overstating the issues at hand - although the article is of course unstable, disputed and in bad shape, BLP has not blatantly been violated and a complete removal seems to me to be completely out of the question here. Dispute resolution involves dealing with conflicts between users, not rejecting articles as unsalvageable and erasing them until events in the real world have moved on. There should be no pre-emptive withdrawals of articles simply on account of lawsuits against media organisations such as Lifetime, for example. I mostly echo Moriori's sentiments. Super Mario Man 03:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

What would your position be if I thought the article should remain online? BruceFisher (talk) 03:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Since the idea of removing the article is drastic, to put it in mild terms, then we would be in agreement, and this discussion would probably not be taking place. What is your point? Super Mario Man 10:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think my point is perfectly clear. BruceFisher (talk) 12:20, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Moriori, was the "heaven forbid" intended to be sarcasm? If so then your position isn't entirely clear. BruceFisher (talk) 03:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely not. It would do untold damage to Wiki's reputation to infer some of its editors were so out of control it couldn't "guarantee" the efficacy of a significant article so needed to hide it instead. Moriori (talk) 04:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Everything DreamGuy said in the initial comment is correct. The fact is that those people with a bias are breaking the rules and should be put on warning status and blocked. Just because they wrongly blocked people doesn't mean they shouldn't themselves be blocked. In fact, maybe it means they should be blocked even more. Putting Wikipedia first is not what they are doing, but an agenda, which is against WP rules. The answer is the regular protocols for breaking those rules and disrupting the WP regular process. Perk10 (talk) 04:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)Perk10

Moriori, you wrote: "It would do untold damage to Wiki's reputation to infer some of its editors were so out of control it couldn't "guarantee" the efficacy of a significant article so needed to hide it instead." Surely the thing that is worse for Wikipedia's reputation is to pretend that everything is OK and carry on with 'business as usual'. The reality is that some of Wikipedia's editors are out of control here, whether for reasons of pursuing a particular POV or simply because they see themselves as 'senior' or 'more experienced' as editors. More experienced and superior to Jimbo Wales, in fact. That is fine if you think that Wikipedia is best served by editors who can't see the wood for the trees, but it totally fails to serve the average reader who wants to find a balanced summary of what has happened in this murder case. Right now, anyone can spend an hour on the internet and quickly get a pretty good idea that there is a controversy and that opposing camps have very different views about what went on in Perugia in November 2007 and subsequently. Wikipedia is failing so badly here in its mission to explain that there is no way that I would ever suggest that anyone come here to find out about the case. And judging by what has gone on here over recent weeks and months there is zero chance that anything is going to change for the better. I conclude that Wikipedia is unable to guarantee the efficacy of this article, so my question is, 'What is better, to leave it here in this state and have it damage Wikipedia's reputation indefinitely, or take it down and fix it offline?' We all know what is going on here and it stinks. I have not even tried to make constructive suggestions about content yet, because I have seen what happens to those who do. NigelPScott (talk) 10:00, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

"It would do untold damage to Wiki's reputation to infer some of its editors were so out of control it couldn't "guarantee" the efficacy of a significant article..." That horse is already out of the barn and well down the highway.Fancourt (talk) 10:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, I honestly can't foresee a removal of the article. Wikipedia hosts articles that are far more controversial in nature even than this one, but still they have always survived unless in situations where there has been severe WP:BLP infringement. Too much is being made of Wikipedia's perceived reputation, here - the project is a work-in-progress, that depends on volunteer contributions, that is constantly expanding and evolving, and that has no deadlines at all despite weak arguments to the contrary. Each page carries a link to a disclaimer, which states that Wikipedia is far from perfect as a source of information. Some of the most divisive scientific topics, such as Global warming and Intelligent design, have reached Featured Article status, and have appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page. The same is true of prominent living people who have both much support and much opposition, such as Barack Obama. These articles did not reach that level overnight, and FA was not achieved by removing the article from public view so that it could be "fixed" in private - this goes against most of Wikipedia's core principles (i.e. that it is the free-content encyclopaedia that anyone can edit, at any time). Instead, arguments between editors were resolved through various dispute resolution processes. In all likelihood, the Murder of Meredith Kercher article will remain fragile and much debated for years to come, even after all appeals are concluded. There is no magic solution. Super Mario Man 10:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It's interesting that it's being argued that the article should be kept online because only the most egregious breaches of Wikpedia's BLP policies could justify its removal. Yet when anyone tries to add anything to the article, BLP concerns are waved around to justify things like excluding a reference to a newspaper article suggesting that a witness has hearing problems, on the grounds that a claim that someone has hearing problems defames them or something. Still trying to get my head around the rules here! Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 11:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You can formally nominate the article for deletion at WP:AFD. If you are having trouble with the formatting, I'll happily do it for you - merely ask me on my talk page and include the statement you'd like placed at the top of the AFD. Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 12:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Did I suggest nominating the article for deletion? Perhaps you were talking to someone else. Regardless, I'm sure WP:PointlessWasteofTime and WP:JumpingThroughEndlessFutileHoops would apply to any such request. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 13:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You and others tried to add a questionable passage attacking the reliability of a witness. That is the problem; you're here fighting for and advocating for one of the case participants. I've only looked into this article for the past 2 weeks or so, but from the outset it was quite clear that the problem lies with editors...most brand-new, others not so much...who are here to ensure that their version of "the truth" is made clear in wiki-article form. At this point there seems to be nothing short of formal mediation or an ArbCom filing that will clear this situation up. Tarc (talk) 13:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

References to articles in major newspapers by named journalists which cast doubt on the reliability of witnesses need to be included to allow Wikipedia's readers to decide for themselves on how reliable the witness is. It's not as though Wikipedia itself is writing or endorsing the newspaper article. To censor that information is to misinform the reader that there are no questions about the witness's hearing ability. The source of the article, OGGI, is not qualitatively different to the many other newspaper sources referred to in the Wiki article. Your use of the weasel words 'questionable' and 'attacking' is noted. Please see WP:WORDS. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:WORDS is meant for article content not talkpages.TMCk (talk) 14:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I see. I think you sort of missed the point there. the WP:WORDS guidelines on weasel words seemed sensible and worth using in general. I wasn't making a merely technical Wikilawyering point. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Pointless.TMCk (talk) 14:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Pointless is when you enter into a conversation just to try and nail somebody for a perceived inaccuracy with words while ignoring the actual content of the argument. And then further insulting the person after this is pointed out to you is even more pointless. Worse, it fosters animosity unnecessarily. Please try and stay constructive.LedRush (talk) 14:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Tarc has probably nailed it. On the issue you raise, Cody (and I apologise for being blunt, but my patience on this is fraying rapidly), you tried to insert that the witness was "near deaf" based on one line in a newspaper article which said she had hearing trouble. When the neutral, factual information appears to be that an audio-metric test was asked for. --Errant ^(chat!) 14:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant, unless you've found something in the Oggi translation I've missed, you're being massively unfair to Cody. The issue is, as I saw it, that Cody felt Oggi was a sufficiently reliable source for the witness having hearing issues, while others did not. The people who didn't think it was sufficient won the day. I don't have a problem with the process too much, even if I lean slightly towards disagreeing with the result. I'm not sure what netral, factual information you're talking about (whether that means you don't find Oggi neutral or factual, or if you've found a different translation of the Oggi article that makes it clear they were saying something else). However, I do agree that it's time to move on from this issue and focus on others.LedRush (talk) 14:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that dispute resolution or mediation will work when the issues here are so pervasive, yet not well defined. I think it is best that we just try and focus on specific edit requests one at a time, and hope that we have some more uninvolved editors take the appropriate actions when necessary. I would think that the biggest issue from the "teach the guilt" side is that the "teach the controversy" people often want to add things without reliable sources, and often with synth or OR. These issues can be dealt with as they arise on those respective boards. The biggest issue from the teach the controversy people is it seems that the teach the guilt people engage in excessive wikilawyering and endless jumping through hoops to get anything done. This is a much harder issue to address, and it has been endemic here for a long time. Hopefully, if we keep some of the new, less-involved editors to help guide us through the issues, the article can be improved.LedRush (talk) 14:31, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

An audiometric test was asked for, but that's not the source of the newspaper's information. The test was requested years ago in the original trial and the source for that is the undisputed Massei Report. The audiometric tests were not to establish that the witness had hearing problems but to establish if anyone could have heard what she claimed to hear from her flat through double glazing. That and the newspaper's allegation are two separate unconnected entities which you seem to be inexplicably trying to merge into one. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

but that's not the source of the newspaper's information; when I asked you to elucidate on this you said that you did not know the source of their information, and yet you say this with great certainty (you also said something along the lines of "she's old, so she must be hard of hearing"...). You also presented the information as "near deaf", which is an extremely non-neutral interpretation of the material! An audio-metric test is designed to test an individual's hearing ability, it may or may not be the source of the Oggi material, we have no idea. However, when faced with the two piece of information I know which is the factual/verifiable piece :) --Errant ^(chat!) 14:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is the Oggi article not factual or verifiable? I understand why it wasn't included (see my post above), but I'm not sure why you're engaging in this particular argument.LedRush (talk) 14:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Just griping when I shouldn't be. We hashed over why the Oggi material is not great for BLP material (if the article opened with a mention of, say, Knox being promiscuous would you consider it usable?). That sort of material is a precise example of what needs to be avoided in this (and any other) article. Unfortunately such material serves the purposes of those trying to slant the article towards X or Y (and is the source of the entire problem) so we will continue to see them. I've had my gripe though :). Back to other issues. --Errant ^(chat!) 15:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The audiometric test referred to in the trial was not a test on the witness herself but a general test to see if it was humanly possible to hear what she claimed to hear from the position she claimed to hear it, given that nobody else in her building heard anything. OGGI are not going to make specific claims of hearing problems based on that. Your assumption that they did is extremely strange to me. OGGI have been reporting reliably on this story for a long time and have boots on the ground in Perugia. They can interview anyone they want. They are just as valid or more valid a news source as any of the others in this article. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Are they not? How do you know? What backs that up? What backs up their claim/content? That it has not been possible to find this piece of information in another source is, ultimately, telling. Oggi is a poor source for that claim, and the material is worthless from the perspective of an encyclopaedia. Gripe done with. I'm off to do something constructive --Errant ^(chat!) 15:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]But why would we need to find what sources a RS uses? That's not part of the editor's job at WP, to my knowledge. The source is reliable and verifiable. However, it has been determined that the source is merely not reliable enough for claims of this nature. As I said above, this isn't a huge deal, but I don't know why this is still being argued, and why it is being argued on these very strage terms and with these unnecessarily accusatory characterizations of events.LedRush (talk) 15:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I was just griping forget it :) I've done. FWIW we cannot simply recite what a source says ad-infinitum, we have an editorial capacity beyond that. In this case Oggi are presenting this information as obvious fact, but no one has been able to substantiate it with information as to why that is. Oggi are not a reliable in relation to judgements about the witness (i.e. if it is them deciding she is hard of hearing, it is their opinion) and without clarification of their source we have no way to know where this comes from. This is all the basics of BLP and sourcing. A better way to think about this is; deal with the piece of information rather than lock it with the source. So the information presented is "The witness has hearing problems" - now we substantiate that with RS's if possible. The only source presented is Oggi who mention it in passing without substantiation, and Oggi are not a reliable source in relation to making a judgement on hearing. --Errant ^(chat!) 15:21, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I said basically the same thing above. So why don't we stop the accusatory rehashes and move on?LedRush (talk) 15:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I see the meatpuppet farm has arisen again

accusations like that are not helpful and are disruptive. If you have clear evidence of such things take it to the relevant place --Errant ^(chat!) 15:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

User:Turningpointe: created July 2010: no edits to any other area, only active recently
User:Fancourt: created 11 October 2010: first edit 4 April 2011: no edits to any other area
User:Issymo: created 5 January 2011: no edits to any other area
User:BruceFisher: created 22 March 2011: no edits to any other area
User:RoseMontague: created 23 March 2011: no edits to any other area
User:GeniusApprentice: created 31 March 2011: no edits to any other area
User:CodyJoeBibby: created 1 April 2011: no edits to any other area
User:NigelPScott: created January 2008: one edit until 2010, then no edits to any other area

You're not fooling anyone, you know. 86.166.162.54 (talk) 15:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Improving house concept diagram

File:Kercher Knox house Perugia concept.gif

Improved variation for concept diagram of upstairs flat.

Several editors have commented that the prior concept diagram, of the upstairs flat, needs improvement. As a result, I have created a variation (see image at right), by copying and altering the February 2010 diagram, while replacing the green bathroom fixtures (with architectural style drawings) and moving the clothes dryer to match the photos. To help gain consensus with other editors, it is important to show that changes are being made.

Originally, the diagram had been kept extremely basic (to nearly stick-figure level) to avoid claims of copyvio, where people might insist on a world-wide image hunt to find who "really" created a more intricate diagram. However, now that the original crude diagram has been accepted as new, I think it is safe to create this variation which can have more sophisticated detail, and refer to the old diagram as the early version which is wikilinked to numerous talk-page discussions. Meanwhile, this new variation can be improved to include a greater range of graphic styles.

We already discussed that the diagram cannot have true, reduced-to-scale dimensions, due to the requirement to source each wall-segment length (and furniture measurements) to reliable sources. Also, the wording below the diagram is needed (per policy WP:OI) to avoid any perceptions of misleading the readers about the actual size of the rooms. However, we can make other changes. What other major improvements which should be discussed? -Wikid77 05:06, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. It is a wonderful aid to the article. I am wondering if we can find reliably sourced wall and furniture measurements.PietroLegno (talk) 15:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but this isn't really any better. That's an interesting interpretation of WP:OI. I noticed it also has "Any manipulated image where the encyclopedic value is materially affected should be posted to Wikipedia:Files for deletion." I think the encyclopedic value of this diagram is materially affected by the manipulations. Rather than improving it, we should probably delete it. We certainly can't use it. Sorry. --John (talk) 16:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Your "thinking" it doesn't make it so and a subjective interpretation of very general language is never impressive. In my opinion the diagram materially improves the encyclopedia. I am sure this is not the only wikipedia article where a highly useful diagram like this has been included. Be not daunted Wikid77. PietroLegno (talk) 16:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you describe the added value you believe it would lend to the article? Maybe you can help me understand why you want to include something like that. I don't like the quality of the diagram, I dislike that it uses the wrong words (we don't talk about a "map" of a house but of a "plan"), I dislike the disclaimers (which are confusing and seem to contradict each other), and I dislike the idea of posting a very obviously user-generated picture like this on so controversial an article. See if you can convince me why we need a house plan at all on this article. --John (talk) 01:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Support I support the addition of a floorplan. It's of obvious value in visualizing the crimescene and the relationship between locations within the flat. I cannot believe that anyone could argue, with a straight face, that an illustration has no value. That being said, perhaps the floorplan could be reduced to a simple, clean line drawing.. very minimalist... and user:John's concerns regarding clear labeling and wording could be accommodated. Admin:John, with respect, rather than continued and changing criticism of the diagram, why dont we approach this backward and see if we can reach consensus. What WOULD be acceptable to you in the form of a floorplan? Please let us all know your 'must haves'. No disrespect intended but I have to say, arbitrary complaining about something as simple and common as a floorplan illustration comes off more like obstructionism and foot dragging rather than proper WP: cooperation. Regards, Tjholme (talk) 02:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we are making progress. What I had particular problems with was the suggestion that the floorplan involved some egregious violation of Wikipedia rules. This seems silly to me. This is mainly a dispute about aesthetics and what makes a readable article. All of the floor plans that have been published were based on the diagrams in the case file. I respectfully suggest that you have been told a number of times why the inclusion of the floorplan is useful: it helps a reader better understand the narrative. It is neutral on the question of guilt or innocence but it has the signal virtue of adding to the intelligibility of the article. I personally find the introduction of visual elements to break up text to be a useful strategy in any publication. My guess is that if I went through the Britannica or the Americana I would find lots of visual elements. As user Tjholme points out, your other objections can be ironed out. PietroLegno (talk) 10:33, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Support adding the drawing as it does aid the reader in understanding enough about the crime scene. It may or may not need to be tweaked but the idea of having one is good and the opposition has not brought forth a compelling argument founded in policy to exclude it. Indeed, the efforts should be applauded. Our American Civil War battles have user-generated maps and those battles are more controversial than this trial will ever be. Commons has a category called Crime scenes and it has a user-generated floorplan in it for a murder...File:Sogen Kato Room.jpg.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose the current proposal. With no offense meant to the author, it is not of sufficient quality to meet our needs, assuming there is a consensus that we should have a plan, something I am still uneasy about but will go with the flow on. If we are to have one, let us have one that is as true to the real dimensions in the sources as possible, and without all the disclaimers which mar this one. I am sure someone can make a better one; maybe I will even do so. But this one, with the stated inaccuracies, will not do. --John (talk) 03:02, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Support I've already given my reasons more than once. The diagram adds value to the article. Issymo (talk) 04:26, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Support I have just read this entire thread about the floorplan. As a Wikipedia novice I think it is an appalling disgrace. It is clear that there are editors who will use every possible filibuster activity to prevent any change to the page at all. How adding a diagram showing the flat layout and the relationship of one room to another, can be anything other than helpful to a neutral reader, is quite beyond me. Editors who are opposing this are displaying bad faith on a breathtaking scale and this must be obvious to everyone who reads the thread. It is no surprise that some previous editors have been blocked in the past when they have overreacted after having been driven to distraction by these tactics. If Wikipedia is to have any credibility as an information resource, editing in good faith must be restored and those who are responsible for Wikipedia must act. I had naively thought that the intervention of Jimbo Wales in person would cause some of these editors to pause and change their behaviour, but while some have withdrawn, many of the current crop have responded with renewed energy and are as disruptive as ever. It is as though they get a perverse delight in winning an argument at all costs and have absolutely no interest in working towards a consensus to provide an informative, comprehensive and comprehendable article for the neutral reader. This must raise questions about the motives of these people. NigelPScott (talk) 10:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any reason for not having a floor plan. Though I would like to see some tweaks to the currently proposed images:

- The text above and below the images should be black and in smaller/cleaner font
- The text labels should probably be a little smaller (and not bolded) as well
- At the proposed size the image displays a little blurry, mostly because it is a Gif. PNG format of the agreed size (better yet a SVG, but that might be a bit of a stretch) would be nice to have.

If those tweaks were made (I am quite happy to make them myself if there is agreement and Wikid77 is not able to make them) then I see not problem with inclusion. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Support I think the floorplan does contribute to the article. I don't have problems with the current form but if it can be improved to satisfy the concerns of others I am fine with it.PietroLegno (talk) 13:05, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Support I think it is an asset to the viewer and should go in. I also agree the current form is fine, if the minor changes need to be made that is also fine. lets get it in there and move on. --Truth Mom (talk) 13:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Support Because there are no OR or copyright violation issues, and because it clearly adds to the article in a NPOV manner. If people want the plan improved, those changes can be made on the fly. Let's not make perfect the enemy of the very good to the detriment of the readers.LedRush (talk) 13:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Poor diagram per ErrantX's proposed changes. Make them, rotate the diagram so the main entrance is at the bottom, and that's fine. Hipocrite (talk) 14:33, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and draw it to scale, as opposed to narrowed for no good reason. Hipocrite (talk) 14:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Support Let's get the diagram back into the article immediately since it is necessary for understanding the case. We can worry about trivial concerns about fonts etc later. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
- Comment For those of us who are invested in maintaining the quality of this resource, concerns about the quality of the graphic are not trivial. If we use a diagram, it must be well-drawn, sourced, and free of distracting text. The current proposal does not meet these criteria. --John (talk) 14:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I find it very odd that the text of this article needs so much attention, and there is this continual feuding over text upon a diagram placed for a simple visual concept. I actually have visual issues, and I can see it clearly. --Truth Mom (talk) 14:59, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Neutral - perhaps still leaning towards oppose. Although I agree that the image is not the biggest problem facing this article, the absence of scale means that I feel unable to offer true support. The attribution could also be much improved. Since the image serves to educate the reader about the interior of the apartment (i.e. it is not simple illustration of article text), the sourcing should be robust - currently, the firmest attribution is to the Friends of Amanda website. Nevertheless, I would not object to re-insertion pending assured changes (in particular, I would urge that ErrantX's recommendations are implemented). Super Mario Man 15:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose - Serves little purpose other than to advance a particular point of view. Quality and accuracy are, at best, suspect. Tarc (talk) 16:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Please explain HOW the diagram advances a particular POV or remove your assertion. Issymo (talk) 16:58, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Oppose - A floor diagram is useful when you are playing Cluedo, but this article should be moving away from that approach. --FormerIP (talk) 17:16, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Support I agree that the diagram should be included. It is helpful to the reader to understand the events being outlined in the article. Turningpointe (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Copied Turningpointe's vote to this section of the discussion as it was in the wrong place. Hope that's OK. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Comment. How do we know where the frig (fridge) was located, or if the flat even had one? Not mentioned in the article, or the reference supporting the description of flat and contents. Neither is the couch. OR? Moriori (talk) 23:43, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

There is an official police diagram that shows where everything is located - http://friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/fingerprint_map_small.jpg Issymo (talk) 04:02, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You're right. There are no sources given that indicate where the frig the fridge was, or whether the bidet was to the right or left of the toilet basin. It just seems to be what one person 'conceives' the layout of the flat to be, (but compressed horizontally, for no good reason) pablo 17:23, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Oppose Totally unsourced, for one. For another it is a 'conceptual diagram' which has been 'conceived' by someone with a very strong point of view on this article, which seems to further indicate that its accuracy is at best limited. pablo 10:55, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Another editor commenting on the diagram's POV, please explain how the diagram pushes a POV.Issymo (talk)

Okay, I will try and simplify it for you. One person has created this diagram. There are no sources. Therefore there is no way of verifying the accuracy of the diagram. Therefore the diagram is worthless. Do let me know if you are still struggling with this. pablo 05:30, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

It is really disappointing that when a consensus is reached, and a change is made, some editors then decide to go back and start arguing about the issue all over again. It is hard to see this as anything other than a deliberate attempt to halt any change to the article, as if there was once a perfect entry that they are trying to defend. The diagram is accepted as a representational layout of the flat. This helps the reader to get an idea of where everything is in relation to everything else. This must be useful, regardless of one's view on the case itself. To say "it is not accurate so it must be worthless" is bad tempered and does not show good faith. We are not trying to measure rooms before we buy carpets, so we do not need precise details, just to know where the rooms are in relation to each other and where the doors are. Is that so hard to understand? NigelPScott (talk) 17:15, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Neutral I dont like the idea of putting under scrutiny the house where the murder took place. It seems to me an attempt to do original research. BTW it seems to me a NPOV element, thus I dont side with any part. --Grifomaniacs (talk) 15:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Call to close

Comment 8 in favour of reinstating the diagram immediately, 2 against. Carried. Reinstate the diagram please. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:03, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Patience is a virtue. It hasn't been 24 hours from the start of this consensus yet. We allow time for other involved editors to see and comment on this. An uninvolved admin will tally and close when the time is right.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:08, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't see how you can claim a consensus to reinsert the material when addressing the concerns of those of us opposed to the current diagram are so easily assuaged. Why not let ErrantX clean up the picture so it meets our standards of quality? Hipocrite (talk) 15:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]First of all, WP works by consensus, not voting (though there is an obvious relationship between the two). Numbers of votes don't matter (supposedly), only the quality of the arguments. Also, the majority of the voting has been done in the last 12 hours. Let's see if we can't pump out one more version of the floor plan that addresses the concerns. It shouldn't take long. Having said that, it seems to me that if the only concerns are cosmetic, I don't see the problem with adding the diagram and changing it per legitimate aesthetic concerns. The article is worse without it than with it, regardless of font size and color. LedRush (talk) 15:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

(re Hipocrite) If you read my support statement above, you will see that I'm supporting having a map in the article with no objections for tweaking/cleaning/making a new map. The map shown in the article may change but I'm supporting the idea of getting one in. I believe we can use the current one until it is superseded (just like revisions of our articles). It is a start. It doesn't need to be perfect and we can work on it. This is a means of moving forward.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:25, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Let me suggest that we can't use the current one until it is superseded, because the current one is not to scale, and it does not rise to the standards of professionalism we insist on having in our articles. A means of moving forward would be to correct the diagram. Hipocrite (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

No, in Wikipedia, we have humble beginnings for articles from barely sourced stubs to problematic starts and so on. The idea that it must be perfect and fully professional is incorrect. None of our featured articles started out having nearly the level that they would eventually achieve. This consensus is striving at getting the map in so that we get beyond that hurdle and then the map can be improved. If someone gets a new one complete before this consensus closes - great..
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 15:41, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a long distance between "fully professional" and "minimally competent." I am suggesting the second, not the first. To scale, and not looking like an MSPaint drawing. Hipocrite (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Define 'consensus' in terms which indicate 80% of people being in favour of something is not a consensus, thank you. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:31, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus means that the entire body agrees. In fact, in functioning consensus discussions, consensus means that everyone either agrees with the decision or stands aside (see Consensus decision-making) - "Any group member may "block" a proposal.") We can get full agreement if you'd let the image get fixed before you rush it into the article. That is a proposal that I said I was willing to accept in an attempt to consent to a compromise, as opposed to merely acceding to the wishes of ~~your off-wiki organized pressure group~~ the new, single-purpose, editors. Hipocrite (talk) 15:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Edited Hipocrite (talk) 18:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I would also point out to Cody that Wikipedia has no deadlines - as Berean Hunter has urged, please allow more time. Super Mario Man 15:38, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You're suggesting i am part of what you define as an 'off-wiki organized pressure group'? Given that that statement is a blatant lie, I can only interpret it as a personal attack. Could someone please let me know where to complain about this user, thanks in advance. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:43, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You can complain about me to WP:WQA or WP:ANI. ~~Are you sure you're not participating in off-wiki discussions regarding this article?~~ Hipocrite (talk) 15:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC) Struck accusation Hipocrite (talk) 18:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, I'll be putting a complaint in for that lying personal attack as soon as i work out how to effectively do that. There's a lot to learn here! Thanks again! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:49, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

@Hipocrite. Sir, if you’re alleging that one or more of us is a sock/meatpuppet or engaged in off-site coordination then say so plainly, name names and present your evidence. Slurring your fellow editors with that broad suggestion might well be seen as an attack of sorts. Please make your case by strength of your argument not by attacking others. Common wisdom states that “once you’ve said ‘Nazi’, you’ve lost the argument”. In WP I’d restate that as “Once you’ve said ‘sock’ or ‘SPA’ you’ve lost the argument”. 155.70.23.45 (talk) 15:51, 8 April 2011 (UTC)155.70.23.45 (talk) 15:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, that was me (above) Tjholme (talk) 15:53, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I am in agreement that the diagram as it stands, is "productive", as well if those minor things can be addressed in a short amount of time, that is also validated by me. I am not in agreement to drag this thing on and on, nor to be thought of being in any sort of group, simply because i would like to see fair productivity upon this subject. Would you really like me to point at I have from the start the circus of events that has taken place in this? My point as well, many have made mention of professional, well then lets show it by all. I hardly think Dear Meredith is concerned with an article concerning her horrific death, to be argument over font on a diagram. let us not forget WHO this whole thing is concern of.--Truth Mom (talk) 15:52, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I have been told that 'consensus' requires every user in the group to be in agreement for a decision to be made. Could somebody tell me whether SuperMarioMan had 'consensus' for removing the diagram in the first place, thanks in advance. I'm know I'm slow at learning all these rules! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 16:02, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The correct document is WP:CONSENSUS...and no, it doesn't have to have everyone in agreement. I would suggest that you simply wait. Questioning about SuperMarioMan's removal is not helping here. We need to get the editing environment moving towards collegiality. Specific discussion on improving the already existing drawing would be productive; complaints & questioning motives are counterproductive.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

support I agree that the diagram should be included. It is helpful to the reader to understand the events being outlined in the article. Turningpointe (talk) 16:14, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

(@Turningpointe) Your support does not belong in this subsection. It belongs in the thread above this one. This subthread is discussing a call to close.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

mostly off topic discussion which descended into sniping and argument. Discuss the image, be polite. Please --Errant ^(chat!) 17:59, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I was just wondering if someone could explain to me how the concept of 'consensus' works here given that it would appear it's a somewhat flexible concept depending on the user. I'm sorry if you don't like people questioning double standards. I just want an explanation of why the concept of 'consensus' as it has been explained to me does not apply to the action of SuperMarioMan's which caused this topic to exist in the first place. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 16:21, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

- Reading our policy on it might be a good place to start. --John (talk) 16:24, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Could you refer me directly to the section which states that a consensus requires the approval of all parties, not just a majority, thanks in advance. Could you also refer me to the section stating that an editor is entitled to make radical edits to a controversial article in spite of the objections of other editors, thanks in advance. There sure is a lot to learn here! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 16:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Cody, there is nothing more to be explained - instead, please calmly read through the responses of Berean Hunter and others. I removed the image from the article four days ago - why am I receiving all this condemnation days later? It was not the first revert on the subject of the image, nor the last. These attempts to catch me out are a fruitless and unproductive endeavour - could you please heed Berean Hunter's advice and drop it? Thank you. Super Mario Man 16:32, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I have so far received no satisfactory explanation as to why the rules on consensus which have been explained to me do not apply to you. But thank you very much for your input. It's a nice technique of yours the way you try to hide behind perceived authority figures such as Berean Hunter by dragging them into your evasive statements. Well done! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 16:38, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that. You still haven't got round to looking at WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, I trust? Also, what is so objectionable about citing what Berean Hunter (and not to mention quite a few others) have said when it makes perfect sense? You would do well to listen to their recommendations and really take them to heart. I'm sorry, but this persistent sarcasm and aggression does little to advance your argument and much to harm it. Super Mario Man 17:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your patronising tone and veiled threats directed towards me. I would normally see your sycophancy towards perceived authority figures as a nauseating display of self-abasement in order to align yourself with the 'authorities', but in this case I'll make an exception and assume good faith. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

You haven't assume good faith from your very first post on using this account [4] and nothing has changed to date.TMCk (talk) 20:12, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry if you're offended by my exercising the right to free speech. I can imagine that must be difficult to deal with for someone like yourself, TCMK. But keep on Wiki lawyering. Maybe you'll be able to get me banned! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 21:54, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I sure don't have a problem with free speech at the right place.TMCk (talk) 22:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I would argue that the First Amendment does in fact apply on Wikipedia. I saw nothing convincing on the page you cited to say that it doesn't. How could the First Amendment not apply? The Constitution overrides any other arrangements. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 22:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Uh, oh, not this perennial discussion! The right to free speech applies to government censorship. The right to participation or expression on a privately owned website is not covered :) --Errant ^(chat!) 22:30, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant is correct. These are private servers and you agreed to abide by the terms of usage. Please read WP:FREE.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 22:35, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing anything which states that the US Constitution and its Amendments do not apply within the United States of America. I must be missing it. Not to worry! CodyJoeBibby (talk) 22:42, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

The US constitution's position on free speech applies only to government actors. For example, I have the right to swear however much I want. But if I go to a movie theater and do it, they are completely within their rights as private citizens to kick me out. The same concept is true here. This doesn't even address the idea of WP being governed by US law.LedRush (talk) 23:06, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus is a decision that takes account of all the legitimate concerns raised. All editors are expected to make a good-faith effort to reach a consensus aligned with Wikipedia's principles.

Sometimes voluntary agreement of all interested editors proves impossible to achieve, and a majority decision must be taken. More than a simple numerical majority is generally required for major changes.

Maybe the hardest thing to understand is that it is not a vote. Arguments count, not numbers. You'll pick it up if you stick around long enough. --John (talk) 16:36, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

All interested parties have by now voiced their opinion. Some more than once. We’re simply repeating ourselves. It’s obvious we’re at loggerheads and will not reached a true consensus. The majority is clearly in favor of re-adding the diagram. The most reasonable/neutral POV among us, user:Berean_Hunter, even sits in favor of adding the diagram and tweaking the layout as necessary for aesthetic reasons. Only one user truly opposes. We need a neutral admin to make this call, otherwise this amounts to simple filibustering by an aggressive, non WP:NPOV minority. 155.70.23.45 (talk) 16:56, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I think this debate highlights a serious question that remains unanswered. Why was the floor plan removed and then discussed? It was already in the article when the questions arose. Why isn't the same action taken for all information that is disputed? If the general approach is to remove anything that comes into question, and then discuss its validity, then this entire article should be taken offline until a consensus can be reached on the content. Berean_Hunter and DreamGuy are clearly neutral here. I would like to hear an explanation from one of them. I am surprised that this debate has gone on this long. It is obvious that filibuster tactics are used here making it impossible to resolve anything. The problem with this situation is that action was clearly taken before any type of consensus was reached. I know that Wikipedia has no deadline but 2 people are currently on trial to determine whether or not they will spend a quarter century behind bars. It is unacceptable for Wikipedia to continue to misinform the public about this case, especially as the trial is ongoing. If the article cannot be corrected, then I suggested for Wikipedia to mimic the action of both SuperMarioMan and John (the action of removing disputed information as it is being discussed) and take this article offline until it can be corrected. If this action is not going to take place, then the floor plan should remain in the article, as it was, until a consensus can be reached. BruceFisher (talk) 02:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. SuperMarioMan had no consensus to remove the diagram but did it anyway. Then he and his friends filibuster and demand a complete consensus to reinstate it. If it is reinstated, one of these people will no doubt remove it again, ad infinitum. If anyone tries to add anything to the article the same people prevaricate and refer people to various noticeboards. Then they refuse to accept any decision coming from any such noticeboard. They also post in the noticeboard request themselves recommending that it not be approved. This article has been hijacked by a group which is determined to withold information from the reader for propagandistic purposes. These people are experts at gaming the Wikipedia system and have a lot of time available to do it. Jimbo Wales's intervention has not deterred them. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 08:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Cody, I seem to recall giving some quite clear reasoning for my past actions only yesterday - Wikipedia has a fair few policies and guidelines, to be sure, but I am disappointed to see that you have yet to familiarise yourself with the pages that have been linked for you. I also seem to recall that you have been warned on multiple occasions not to indulge in attacks and accusations of this nature. Note to Bruce: Berean Hunter for one has not objected to the revert that I made - sorry about that. I have already pointed out that the onus of ensuring that article content complies with policies and guidelines rests with the user who adds or restores the material, not the one who removes it. Being over-dramatic about the fate of the article (e.g. the proposal that it be taken off-line - sorry, that isn't how things work around here) adds little to the discussion and does not help it to progress smoothly - I would strongly urge that you re-read WP:DEADLINE. I'm not too interested in claims of "filibustering", if I'm being completely honest - that certain users continue to refer to a single revert that I made no less than five days ago, blowing it out of all reasonable proportion, seems to me to be filibustering of an altogether different sort. Super Mario Man 12:16, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interested in whether technically the burden of proof lies on the person restoring material. That is not the point which was raised. What I am interested in is whether you had consensus to remove the material. Did you have consensus from the other editors here to remove the diagram or did you not? Your actions would seem to indicate that anything can be removed from the article without consensus. Is that the case or not? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 12:40, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interested in whether technically the burden of proof lies on the person restoring material. That is not the point which was raised. It is, however, the point that I am raising, and until you understand this most vital of points I see little benefit to be gained from prolonging this conversation. Why must you debate all of this in accordance with your own rules and preconceptions rather than the tried-and-tested policies and guidelines that Wikipedia has developed and that multiple users have presented to you? I will not further indulge this childish and irrelevant game of "Who Did What?", which constitutes a classic example of refusing to get the point. Is there a particular reason why it is only in the last couple of days, and not immediately after I made the revert, that you have started throwing around and repeating this allegation of impropriety? Super Mario Man 13:27, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Your point does not answer my question as to whether you had consensus from your fellow editors to remove the diagram. It is an evasion of the question. Let me ask you the question again - Did you have consensus from the other editors here to remove the diagram or did you not? There is no need to get angry. I apologise if I have been out of line recently. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 13:59, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The cycle is bold, revert, discuss, which means that the person who reverts a bold addition does not have to have consensus for that action. Salvio ^{Let's talk about it!} 14:30, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the information, Salvio. Unfortunately that didn't answer my question. I did not ask whether a consensus was technically required for SuperMarioMan to remove the diagram. I asked if there was in fact a consensus of editors in favour of SuperMarioMan removing the diagram. So far that question has not been answered. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 14:55, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Rather than spelling out again what has already been spelt out for you countless times before, I'll attempt a different approach and use that last response as the basis for this answer. Salvio has stated that consensus is not "technically required" for a bold action, such as the removal of a diagram, and you seem to acknowledge this fact in the third sentence above. I therefore fail to understand the purpose of the fourth sentence - since consensus is not "technically required", whether there was consensus "in fact" is irrelevant to the discussion. To address the fifth sentence, there is therefore no answer to be given to the question referred to in the fourth sentence, because the third sentence renders it meaningless. Now, do you accept this refutation, or must this tendentiousness continue indefinitely? Considering the warnings that you have received, I don't think that the latter option would be wise, and I advise that you just drop it forthwith - the expression "making a mountain out of a molehill" comes to mind. Lastly, although your concern about me being "angry" is appreciated, I am not in actual fact "angry" - just a bit confused at how understanding something so simple could turn out to be such a challenge. Super Mario Man 15:31, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

SuperMarioMan, as you are well aware, many small details contribute to the whole. "molehills" as you call them become mountains when accumulated. If your argument is applied to every single detail of this article, it obviously has a drastic affect on the meaning of the content. I suggest for everyone here to take SuperMarioMan's lead and to remove every single detail that is disputed. Do a "bold revert" on every detail that is disputed and let the burden fall on those who would like to add the information back. That's the rules here. Let's follow the guidelines as viewed by SuperMarioMan. Wikipedia has strict rules about "living persons" but doesn't seem to mind pushing misinformation out to the masses that could very well influence a trial that is currently ongoing; a trial that will decide if 2 people spend a quarter century behind bars. So I repeat the request that all participants take SuperMarioMan's lead and remove all disputed information from the article. If we are to follow the guidelines set forth by SuperMarioMan then this should be done immediately. BruceFisher (talk) 16:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Your willful and pointed misinterpretation of just about all that I've said above does nothing to help matters, Bruce. Attempts at gaming Wikipedia are often not worth the effort, and calls for others to do so are not sensible. Sorry, but twisting my words into something absurdly counter-intuitive and counter-productive simply isn't a clever tactic. Super Mario Man 17:34, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

SuperMarioMan, you should run for public office. You are a pro at talking endlessly with out ever answering a question. You don't seem to have a problem with the diagram other than the fact that those who you disagree with believe it should be included. This "molehill" has been added and removed at least 8 times. All this does is keep people running in circles and allows those who control the article to maintain the content they desire. I don't think you took great care in deciding to do a "bold revert," instead you pushed your agenda knowing full well that it would annoy those you don't care for. Feel free to report me again. I know you will be itching to do so. I am speaking the truth and anyone with a clear head can see it. Where are the neutral administrators to clean up this disaster? BruceFisher (talk) 17:50, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a clear consensus for the diagram to be there. When it was removed there was no consensus to remove it. At this time the only thing preventing it from being there is crass WP:WIKILAWYERING which tries to claim there must be 100% agreement to do something the people who don't want it there doesn't agree with while at the same time they insist they do not even need a simple majority to do the things they want to do. This is unacceptable, and not how Wikipedia's policies work.

I have restored the image. There is no need to wait any longer, both because the people who removed it did not wait for consensus for their side (which never came) and because we currently have a clear consensus.

Now of course, that consensus can change later should more or better arguments for why it should not be there be presented or so forth. DreamGuy (talk) 18:17, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I still think the image needs improvement, not going to get chance tonight to do it. Does anyone else (DreamGuy?) have chance to make the improvements (in case my !vote in the above section is not clear I don't think the current image is adequate to go in "as is") --Errant ^(chat!) 18:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant,the diagram has been discussed endlessly and the majority think it belongs in the article. SuperMarioMan removed it and he doesn't even seem to have a strong opinion against it. I find that odd. How many do you need to agree in order to consider it a consensus? We are told that discussing why it was removed isn't helpful? I don't follow this logic at all. Many aspects of this article are disputed yet still remain in the article. Why not remove every detail that is disputed and leave the burden on those who want to attempt to reinstate it? I don't think honest answers to these simply straight forward questions will be a distraction to this discussion. I am curious where the neutral administrators have gone. This article needs their attention immediately or it needs to be taken offline completely until the ongoing trial has a decided outcome. BruceFisher (talk) 18:30, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

or it needs to be taken offline completely until the ongoing trial has a decided outcome.; you won't find me disagreeing there. Preferably for a couple of years until those with super strong views have lost interest in the matter. On the subject of the image; numerous legit problems have been raised with the current example. I think they need to be resolved before placement. There is no rush, if it takes a week it takes a week. *shrug* Don't worry about it. The slower it moves the better really, on contentious subjects like this (in my experience anyway). --Errant ^(chat!) 18:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

"SuperMarioMan removed it and he doesn't even seem to have a strong opinion against it. I find that odd." In the time that has passed since I removed the image, I've changed my opinion to a certain extent. It won't be re-inserted by me, but neither will I remove it again. How is all of this "odd" or in some manner unusual? I resent how in the last two to three days my username has been clumsily dragged through the mud on this subject as if to have some sort of punishment handed down. Please leave it. Super Mario Man 18:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Dreamguy, thank you for your attention here. I had not had the chance to read your comment when I posted above. I am asking that you please continue to give the needed attention to this article. You are clearly a neutral voice. BruceFisher (talk) 18:33, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Dreamguy mentioned above that he reinstated the picture but I do not see it in the article. Why is that? BruceFisher (talk) 19:19, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

A quick look at the article history indicates John deleted it. I agree that the diagram isn't perfect, but strongly object to his check in comment that indicated that certain editors opinions don't count on the talk page. --Footwarrior (talk) 03:12, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I would ask that DreamGuy take action against John for deleting the diagram once again without any discussion whatsoever. Is this really how Wikipedia is designed to operate? BruceFisher (talk) 04:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I removed it for the second time (I did not delete it) because I still think it's important that if we are to have a plan of the flat it should be as accurate and as well-sourced as possible. On a high profile article like this, we cannot use an image that is the wrong shape and is plastered with disclaimers. See also the objections from four other established Wikipedians. Regarding consensus, as I have said before, everyone's opinions count, but on a matter of what does and doesn't meet our criteria for inclusion, I take users like Tarc, Errant, Hipocrite or FormerIP more seriously than someone who has only ever edited this article. And of course, the onus is on those wishing to include something to demonstrate consensus; we don't ever need consensus to delete poorly sourced or suspect material. I hope that makes sense. --John (talk) 05:21, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

John, someone will draw a diagram to scale and you will come back and say that we have no idea what the exact measurements are because we weren't inside the cottage taking measurements and you will delete it again. This debate has very little to do with the diagram itself but rather what side of the debated added the diagram in the first place. This debate over a minor detail highlights the problem with this entire article. If FornerIP added the diagram we wouldn't be having this debate. Its really that simple. Before someone takes the time to do the work, please let us all know if you will accept a drawing of the floor plan without exact measurements. Keep in mind that this is a simple floor plan to give readers a general sense of where the murder occurred. It also shows the reader that the cottage had 2 bathrooms. Please be honest and upfront with your answer. Do not allow someone to take the time and effort to create a better floor plan only to come in and delete it again. BruceFisher (talk) 11:48, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

~~John~~ Bruce is absolutely right. No cogent argument has been made against the diagram other than regarding it's image quality. A clear consensus believes it is helpful to the article, so let's not bicker about font size and color while the article suffers for its non-inclusion.LedRush (talk) 13:04, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi, LedRush - don't you mean "Bruce is absolutely right"? Super Mario Man 13:43, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Um...I knew SOMEBODY was right. Thanks SuperMario.LedRush (talk) 21:33, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought SuperMarioMan was now neutral on this issue? Has his position changed again? It's clear that the majority feel the diagram belongs in the article. From what I can tell, consensus only applies to certain aspects of this article. The group cannot even agree on what the term consensus means so the apparent confusion causes the diagram to remain out of the article therefore allowing the minority to prevail. Can someone show me the link to the Wiki guideline that states that the minority vote rules? BruceFisher (talk) 16:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Consensus is determined through strength of arguments, not through a simple numerical majority - the stronger arguments of a smaller group can therefore outweigh the weaker arguments of a larger group. And no, my opinion hasn't "changed again" - I was simply remarking that LedRush appears to agree with you much more than with John, and was therefore slightly confused by his declaration that "John is absolutely right". On a side note, the slow edit war that has started to rage over the image has forced the article to enter another period of full protection... Super Mario Man 17:03, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Led Rush is confused about anything. I think he sees exactly what's going on. Thanks for being there for him tho. I am sure he appreciates your kindness. Maybe he will send you some Wiki cookies. Yes, the article is under full protection again and if you take notice, the diagram is back in the article. My best guess would be that the full protection was caused by the diagram being repeatedly removed. BruceFisher (talk) 17:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The article is under protection because certain editors were edit warring, rather than discussing. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:00, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Your vicarious gratitude is appreciated, Bruce. Thanks also for the recommendation about Wiki Cookies - I'm not desperate for more of those right now, but thanks for putting in a good word for me nevertheless. One important point, however: according to the notice at the top of the article, "This protection is not an endorsement of the current version". Furthermore, an uninvolved user has still not determined the consensus with regard to inclusion or exclusion of the image. Most users at the topic have voiced their opinions; it is now a matter of waiting for an external judgement to be made, in accordance with Berean Hunter's guidance at the head of this section. Being neutral overall on this subject, I will accept whatever consensus that may be. Super Mario Man 19:11, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

"Being neutral overall on this subject" - usually when people are neutral on a subject they don't put so much time in on that subject. They also don't do bold reverts on that subject that they don't feel strongly about. You are right in the middle of the edit warring mentioned above, yet you are now neutral. This can't get much more convoluted. DreamGuy voiced his opinion on his talk page about this article. I suggest that everyone read it. BruceFisher (talk) 19:26, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

First of all, making one single revert doesn't equate to "being in the middle of the edit-warring". Second, that happened days ago - why is it still bothering you days later? Third, I would respectfully argue that the matter is only "convoluted" because you cannot let go and insist on over-analysing each detail to the point of tedium, demanding answers for questions that have already been explained to you and refusing to listen to what numerous others have politely pointed out more than once. Fourth, what point are you actually trying to make, and is this discussion actually supposed to go anywhere? I'll note that an earlier comment on this talk page recommended that we all stop discussing each other and return our focus to the article itself - may I request that you please do so? Super Mario Man 21:17, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Image at Commons

It is somewhat frustrating to see someone attempt to delete the file from Commons here. That isn't the place to have that kind of deletion discussion in light of this one going on. I don't believe that is just a coincidence. There needs to be more good faith than this.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 20:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe this will help to improve the image, it is the best I have seen and is the one used by the court. http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/police_crime_scene_composite.jpg RoseMontague (talk) 12:55, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Police Interviews

The paragraph about Amanda’s written note recanting the “confession” stating that “She ‘stood by’ her accusation of Lumumba” is taken out of context and should include her entire statement from the written note in order to be WP:NPOV.

"I also know that the fact that I can't fully recall the events that I claim took place at Raffaele's home during the time that Meredith was murdered is incriminating. And I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house." ^[1]Turningpointe (talk) 18:03, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The required edit is a bit more complicated. The third paragraphs of this section covers the same events as the second paragraphs. They should be merged into one paragraph and cleaned up. --Footwarrior (talk) 03:10, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

If we can get a replacement that has consensus, we can request an admin to make the change. Anyone have a suggestion on how this might look to start the process? Ravensfire (talk) 03:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I will give it a shot early next week. --Footwarrior (talk) 13:39, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

In this same section, does anyone have a source for Raffaele's actual words when he said Amanda wasn't with him all night? --Footwarrior (talk) 19:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite, "People Arrested for the Murder: Rudy Guede"

--Tjholme (talk) 03:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC) I propose the following as replacement for the current section on Rudy Guede:

Rudy Hermann Guede (born 26 December 1986, Abidjan, Côte d'Ivoire[18]) was aged 20 at the time of the murder. He had come to Perugia at the age of five with his father,[19] who worked as a labourer in the 1990s.[20] At the age of 16, when his father left Italy, Guede was informally adopted by the family of a local businessman.[19] He also had an aunt who lived in Lecco, about 50 km north of Milan, who he sometimes lived with. Though unemployed at the time of the murder, Guede had acquired joint Italian nationality and sporadically studied accounting and hotelkeeping.[20] Guede had no record of a criminal conviction at the time of the murder but was well-known to the police as a petty criminal. He had been arrested in connection with the burglary of a Milan daycare center and for possessing stolen goods from an earlier second story burglary of a Perugian law office. After Guede's arrest in the Kercher murder, local bartender Christian Tramontano made a statement to police indicating that he recognized Guede as the man he had confronted four months earlier when he discovered him burglarizing his home in the night. According to Tramontano, he awoke to find a young black man rummaging through his belongings in his second floor bedroom. He confronted the man and chased him downstairs to the locked front door. Unable to escape, the man turned on him and brandished first a chair then a knife to keep him at bay [74]. Nick Squires of The Daily Telegraph states, "He became a suspect in the murder two weeks after Miss Kercher's body was found, when DNA tests on a bloody fingerprint and on samples taken from the body were found to match samples which police already had on file following his earlier arrests."[22]

Tjholme (talk) 03:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I like the re-write. I might add information about him knowing the downstairs guys and that he had only met Amanda and Meredith briefly and Raffaele not at all. Another thing to add might be that he was late on his rent and the land lady was asking for proof of employment. He also had tried to have a basketball career. Just suggestions. It's a big improvement and we can do the same with the other profiles as well.Issymo (talk) 03:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I like it as well, this is the way (effort wise) this article should be being dealt with.--Truth Mom (talk) 04:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Pretty good. I have no issues with this rewrite. The reader needs to know about Rudy Guede's recent past just prior to the murder. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 08:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

A little detailed IMO. Excessive detail on the Tramontano break in are not overly relevant and I would reduce the description of his arrests to "Guede was known to the police, and had been arrested several times in connection with various burlaries, but at the time of the murder had no record of a criminal convicion." --Errant ^(chat!) 18:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

With Errant's change, I'm ok with it.LedRush (talk) 21:47, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I find it odd that a suspect's history of pulling a knife when confronted during a burglary isn't relative to a knife murder where there are signs of breaking and entering. --Footwarrior (talk) 21:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Is there a source for "had been arrested several times in connection with various burglaries"? --FormerIP (talk) 22:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Digging the sources used in the above. FormerIP is right we need a source that mentions these things, the ones used above do not mention this. Also one of the sources says he did have a criminal record... so that needs to be clarified. --Errant ^(chat!) 22:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

The Christian Tramontano break in is an important detail and witness. I think that should definitely be kept. It is a witness testimony for a very similar burglary where a knife was drawn.Issymo (talk) 22:43, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeh... but the problem is that it is unrelated to this incident. Any similarities would have to be commented on by a reliable independant source --Errant ^(chat!) 22:46, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Tramontano's evidence is really a very minor piece of the jigsaw. But if it is to be included, it should be mentioned that Tramontano was not able to give a positive identification of Guede, only "mi sembra di riconoscere" ("I think I recognise him" - Massei, p 34) and that the trial jury found no similarities between the Tramontano burglary and the staged break in at Kercher's flat in any case. --FormerIP (talk) 00:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

If it's added, the "trial jury" actually is only "Massei". We have no idea what the other jurors thought. So that is technically wrong.(GeniusApprentice (talk) 00:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC))

Demsey's book and at least a couple news articles could be used as references for the Christian Tramontano incident. We don't need to reference Massei as a source. Guede was never arrested for this incident, but he was arrested for the Milan school break in. --Footwarrior (talk) 03:22, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The defence aren't paying us, so we would need Massei as a source in order to ensure NPOV. --FormerIP (talk) 10:55, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I would hope FormerIP's personal attack above would be stricken.

Also, I thought it had been argued extensively above that we should only use primary sources for non-controversial statements of fact, and that secondary sources are better in general.LedRush (talk) 12:18, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP seems to change his argument to whatever he thinks at any particular time will help rationalize whatever he wanted done in the first place, which is why he often contradicts himself.DreamGuy (talk) 17:42, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The Dempsey book is a more than adequate WP:RS for this topic, and many others. It does not violate WP:NPOV in any way to cite sources who have opinions, otherwise no sources would be allowed in this article at all. Dempsey is a reliable source with notable commentary on the case as well as a secondary source making mention of notable topics already mentioned in primary sources. Attempts to censor Dempsey as a source are clearly based on a complete misunderstanding of policy as well as the demonstrated desire for the article to take sides. DreamGuy (talk) 17:42, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Dempsey is RS for some material. It is probably fine for fact. Opinion, unless supported in other RS's (preferably ones with different viewpoints) should be attributed. And we should take care with BLP material taken from the book. The problem with taking factual information from such sources is that opinionated authors often present facts in ways which support their views, so it is good practice to be reasonably cynical about material. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:03, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I would agree with admin:Errant that the piece is a bit wordy and needs better

citations. I didn't want to disrespect the previous editor by overwriting his/her text completely so I tried to insert content into the existing framework. Admittedly it doesn't flow as well as I would have liked. However, in a case involving a knife murder and evidence of a second story break-in I think the fact that the one fully convicted murderer in the case has a history of involvement in burglaries featuring second story break-ins, broken windows and knives is more than simply germane, it's critical in painting the correct, neutral picture of the man. I don't want to paint him as either demon or choirboy.. Much of his life and history appears to be quite normal, but there's also more than a suggestion of a dark side, and the casual reader should get that impression as well. As for Tramontano, his statement was strong enough to be allowed into the trial so I'd think it's strong enough to be mentioned in an article about the case. Maybe with the insertion of the word 'thought' to more accurately reflect his statement. Tjholme (talk) 21:23, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks like discussion has run it's course on this issue. Can I assume we have enough consensus to go ahead with inserting my piece on the 17th ? The rewrite has good support and no vigorous or compelling opposition, i.e. probably as close to consensus as this group is likely to get. Please state for the voting record, support or oppose.Tjholme (talk) 18:11, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Support: Tjholme (talk) 18:13, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
Support: BruceFisher (talk) 02:20, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Oppose. For reasons stated above. --FormerIP (talk) 02:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Support Very well written segment with a lot of great details added. I would like to see the information on Knox and Sollecito expanded as well. Issymo (talk) 23:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Support - Assuming Errant's change is enacted. Per the clear consensus above and the fact that no opposing reasoning has been articulated.LedRush (talk) 00:08, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Support Very good rewrite. I like the expansion of details within it. Great Job :) --Truth Mom (talk) 00:53, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

A proposed addition to the media section

The media section now reads, in part:

A number of sources have argued that the pretrial publicity and tabloid-style coverage tainted the public perception of Knox and may have prejudiced the trial.[120][121] Unlike standard practice in some other countries, the professional judges and lay jurors who decide the verdicts in Italian court cases are not sequestered during the trial and are allowed to read news articles about the case. [3][122] The lawyers filed complaints with a Milan court and with Italy's privacy watchdog.[120]

I don't believe that the current text properly introduces the amount or nature of the press that Knox received immediately after her arrest through the time of the trial. This is important to note both because it speaks to the controversial nature of the case, and because, as is noted elsewhere, Italian jurors are encouraged to read the press before rendering a verdict.

Before the first sentence, I propose to add the following:

Much of the British and Italian media has portrayed Knox as a "manipulative femme fatale", and, according to Paul Harris at the Guardian, has engulfed Knox in a wave of negative press.[5]LedRush (talk) 14:32, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Just as a comment (not on whether to include this or not) Much of the British and Italian media has portrayed Knox is a close paraphrase of the source, so it needs to be re-written. I've not actually read the media section up to this point, but what you quote looks like it is full of weasel words :S probably the whole thing needs a refresh --Errant ^(chat!) 16:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll take your comments one at a time.

1. I used the language I have because it is close to the original: whenever discussions revolve around the size of a criticism or the amount of coverage, there is deep disagreement about how to include the information. By staying close to the source, any such disagreement should be minimized. I don't think we get into a copyright/plagarism issue because the language is broad and common and there is really no other plain way to say this other than by doing things like inverting the subject and verb, or changing the verb from active to passive. Of course, I am willing to entertain improvements.

2. I assume your comment regarding weasel words only relates to the first quoted sentence. If I remember the discussion correctly (and I could be totally wrong), this was a compromise position on saying that a "number" of sources. Certain editors (I'll let you guess) thought that it should read "many", while others "some". We used only two citations, but found, many, many more (including the one I'm using hear, or just about any article on the formation of "Friends of Amanda"). A "number" gives the sense that it is more than a handful, but doesn't give the sense that it is either overwhelming ("many") or deminimus ("some"). Of course, if you have a better suggestion that doesn't run afowl of either of those concerns, I'd think everyone would be open to it.LedRush (talk) 17:08, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I think NPOV is a real problem here. If we get into slating press coverage, we really ought to be describing the content of the press coverage, or else we are giving half a tale. I don't think these details are important to the article in themselves, but we can't just give a hearing to one side of that aspect of the story.

On more minor notes: "Much of the British and Italian media..." is opinion that should be attributed. "Unlike standard practice in some other countries..." is an unsourced assertion. --FormerIP (talk) 18:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Much of the British and Italian media..." is reported as fact in the citation. Regarding NPOV, I'm not sure I get your point. In a section on media coverage, should we not say what RSs say about the media coverage. If you can find a RS that says the media coverage is fair, or that it was slanted to pro-Knox in the US, we can use it. But there are lots of sources that talk about the bias of vilification of Knox by the Italian and British press, and we can't tell any of the story without making that clear.LedRush (talk) 18:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we get into a copyright/plagarism issue because the language is broad and common and there is really no other plain way to say this other than by doing things like inverting the subject and verb; unfortunately we can't do that. Our approach to copyright is pretty stringent and we invite the ire of copyvio editors (you thought this was stressful?? I jest :P). But seriously; changing a couple of words around isn't enough, even with the reasons you cite. If we really must use those words, make it a quote. On the other matter.. I dislike any form of "a number of", or "many observers" etc. without a source that specifically says that. But I meant the rest of the sentence as well; the whole article is littered with wording like that, which is not really encyclopeadic, I'll propose an alternative later. --Errant ^(chat!) 18:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Let's talk about the rest of the media section elsewhere.LedRush (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with your assessment of copyright, and we should avoid too many quotes. I can change it around, but I am sure this language will be endlessly debated unless we stay true to the source as I have.LedRush (talk) 18:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

New Proposal taking FormerIP's and Errants' comments into account.

According to Paul Harris at the Guardian, Knox has been engulfed in a wave of negative press as the British and Italian media have depicted her as a "manipulative femme fatale".[6]LedRush (talk) 19:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think this information needs to be attributed, but make the concession to help find consensus.LedRush (talk) 19:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure there must be better sourcing to cover this. The Observer (just incidentally, not the Guardian) source is an op-ed incorporating an interview with Friends of Amanda and so written from their perspective. It should be treated with caution per WP:OPINION.

The real problem isn't any particular source, though, its the generally slanted narrative. What we have is OTT claims of character assassination, the irrelevant and leading information that the jury was not sequestered, the entirely false suggestion that this is unusual by any standard, the information that a privacy complaint was filed, giving the misleading impression that this was something to do with "much" of the coverage in Britain and Italy.

An alternative, and equally sourceable, spin would be that certain publications such as the Mail and the News of the World (not representing a large proportion of overall coverage) printed some true but lurid and gossipy information about the private lives of the defendants, which wasn't relevant to their trials. Supporters of Knox have complained that the jury was not sequestered, although this is not standard practice in any Western country. Criticisms have also been made of American coverage of the case, which was characterised by hyperbolic and jingoistic criticism of the Italian system of justice.

The overall question is how to arrive at a neutral narrative which covers all of that to a degree that is not over-detailed but also does not cherry-pick. --FormerIP (talk) 19:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

OTT claims of character assassination? Are you suggesting that Amanda Knox's character was not assassinated in the media following her arrest? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not aware that it was, I'm only aware that Knox's supporters have made this claim. --FormerIP (talk) 21:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the source, we could use this [7] (or others) for the same statement, though we don't need to. But let's get down to the crux of your argument.

I would like to see RSs state that only/mostly the Mail and the News of the World (and not a large proportion of coverage) provided the character assassination against knox. I doubt we'll find one, as it is clearly not true. Also, I'm not sure about any of your other statements as well...none seem true to me, and I doubt any can be sourced. But, I would be happy to be proven wrong.

Regarding the main thrust of your argument, I don't think the view is slanted. We have pro-conviction commentary with anti-conviction commentary. We get an extended diatribe by the father against knox. We have criticism from the american press, and criticism of the american press. The only thing that I thought was missing was an introduction to the statements regarding why we were talking about the importance of how the media coverage could have effected the trial.

Regarding being sequestered: I know we had this discussion before, but it seems the source has been lost. I'll try and find it, but this was discussed on the talk pages. In the US, for a murder trial of this size, juries would almost definitely be sequestered. However, I don't find that the most important information here. The issue is that in the US (and I believe most western countries) you are not allowed to conduct individual investigation about the facts, so you cannot be influenced by the media or other out-of-court info. I will find the source about what is normal, but I will stipulate in advance to changing the sentence to remove mention of sequestering and talk only about reading the news (outside investigations).LedRush (talk) 20:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The sequestered statement comes from this [8]. It seems that the current version of the article overplays its hand...we shouldn't say "some other countries" or "standard practice" but instead something like: Unlike in the US where potential jurors are screened for bias, "Italian jurors are not only free to hold preconceived opinions; they're also at liberty to follow the news of the trial as it unfolds, leaving them vulnerable to swings in popular sentiment". We can use the quote or incorporate it (I prefer incorporation).LedRush (talk) 20:25, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

When using sources we need to take care over separating fact an opinion. Fact is that they are not screened and are not sequestered. Opinion is that this leaves "them vulnerable to swings in popular sentiment". Usually best to keep the two separate and correctly attribute opinion. Also, comparison to the US is usually not useful/appropriate - just say the facts of what they can/can't do. --Errant ^(chat!) 21:06, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

~~I agree~~ Actually, I only partially agree. I'd rather not talk about redoing the whole section, and only about my proposed addition.LedRush (talk) 21:15, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, I usually counsel against combining pro/anti information to make something neutral :) Often there is a balance to be had. She's probably not been treated any worse in the media than others have been in the past, but her supporters have made a big fuss over it (understandable). So I would tend to formulate it as a paragraph saying a) the case was widely covered in the media, b) that Knox's supporters and other observers have raised issue over it, c) that they express concern it may influence the jury (but not talk about the jury being non-sequestered in the same section) and finish it with a reasonable quote from one of the observers (much like the one presented).... I prefer the telegraph source because it is reportage of the group, rather than opinion. maybe:

The case attracted intense media coverage in [list of countries?]. Knox's supporters and other journalists criticised her negative portrayal [in the tabloids?], saying that it might influence the trial. Anne Bremner, head of the "Friend of Amanda" support group, said "Amanda has been depicted as a she-devil, a temptress and a promiscuous manipulator and that’s not just not true, it’s also very damaging" It's not perfect, I can't source the "tabloids" bit, but it might be possible to. I am also unsure of the list of countries; but it should be relatively simple to find a source (or sources) to list some. We can deal with the jury not being sequestered somewhere else, no need to tie it with this --Errant ^(chat!) 21:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

While I am generally ok with this approach, I have two comments (one to the writing and one to your statements). First, it seems incredibly relevant to state why the group feels that demonization in the Italian and British press can influence the jury. Second, and less importantly for this discussion, do you really believe that Knox hasn't gotten it worse than most others in the press? I can't even think of a case in which the press treated a defendant nearly as bad as Knox. I'm flabbergasted. In Europe is it normal for people to make outrageous and unsubtantiated comments about your sex life, to openly hyopothesize that a suspect is a sociopath based on almost no psychological evidence? I mean, you only have to look at how Guede and Sollecito were treated to see that Knox has it 10 times worse than the other people in the same trial. That statement truly confounds me, even though I know it's not central to your argument.LedRush (talk) 21:36, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

My girlfriend reads the tabloids :) They can be very nasty, pretty much every day. So, no, I don't think she was singled out, she just got the usual titillating coverage (not that that what I think is overly relevant, but I was just trying to lightly suggest that we don't need to present it as fact that her coverage has been abnormal [or at least we need a solid source that says so]). It's not central to the argument, just an observation on the sources so far. it seems incredibly relevant to state why the group feels that demonization in the Italian and British press can influence the jury; I'd argue that this is communicated in what I wrote (about it influencing juries). It is not at all uncommon how Italy forms and treats juries, and we can present that factually in the initial material about the trial (I haven't organised my thoughts on how best to approach that). I argue that the extra detail you suggest is basically a longer way of saying what the proposed content already says. That the jury would see the media coverage is IMO basically common knowledge, so the "why" is somewhat redundant :) --Errant ^(chat!) 21:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

How about: saying that it might influence the jurors (who are allowed to read media reports). - or a better version of that. --Errant ^(chat!) 21:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the coverage, perhaps this is my American bias, but I've never even heard of tabloids going after someone accused of a crime with such venom for such an extended period of time. And also, perhaps because I'm America, I was very surprised to learn that Italian jurors aren't screened for bias and can read news reports. (All jurors in the US are screened for bias, and none can read news reports, or even discuss the case with anyone else. Furthermore, if there is potentially prejudicial info in the media, they can be sequestered.) Your fix addresses that a bit, but I still see it as a soft sell on the issues. And now that you are tying my introductory language with a rewrite of the later info, I feel that we are taking one step forward and two steps back.LedRush (talk) 21:58, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

This [9] article seems to indicate that my view of how jurors are expected to act in the US is similar as to the UK.LedRush (talk) 22:02, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Don't forget that Knox is American, Kercher is British. So it seems reasonable the coverage should be this way round. To show a counter example.. the tabloid (and other) coverage of Julian Assange in the US has been pretty vitriolic (calls for his execution etc.). I think that the juror system in the trial is flawed could be pertinent, I am lary of tying it to the criticism by supporters though. My own preference would be to deal with it using sources from people qualified to comment on the legal system adequately. Especially the Italian legal system, which is more than a mess. And now that you are tying my introductory language with a rewrite of the later info; I can't really support your original proposed addition because it comes at the material from the wrong direction, plus Harris' opinion is only tangentially relevant compared to the head of the Friends of Amanda group (who he is writing about anyway). Perhaps expand it more: saying that the jurors (who are not sequestered and are allowed to read media reports) may have been influenced. --Errant ^(chat!) 22:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The parenthetic phrase there is too weasely. I would suggest that juries are almost never sequestered anywhere in the western world. We could arguably include this in the context of a quote from Friends of Amanda, but not in a way which suggests that Wikipedia finds the fact relevant. --FormerIP (talk) 22:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I disagree actually, I think including it a quote risks over quoting the section and also makes it a bit stressing the point. They could be sequestered, it seems reasonable to explain they are not (and therefore the substance to the complaint). Reflecting on this I think LedRush has a point & my proposal is a reasonable compromise ;) --Errant ^(chat!) 22:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

They could be sequestered. There are probably many things that could be. The fact that they were not is only potentially relevant in the context that someone has tried to build an argument around it. We should be informing the reader who this is, otherwise we have a random fact. --FormerIP (talk) 23:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Is that getting too close to a WP:COATRACK? Ravensfire (talk) 23:17, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

FormerIP, disagreed. That they are not sequestered is a fact, and contextualises the opinion held by the Knox supporters. I don't think it needs to be formally attributed in a quote. I could buy an argument to drop "and are allowed to read media reports" because that is potentially dodgy. I think it is seriously forcing the idea of fact/opinion to insist this, and there is no need to mash up a crap load of quotes (because that is pure COATRACK) --Errant ^(chat!) 23:22, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand. Is the argument that attributing something rather than saying it in WPs voice would amount to coatracking? It seems to me that the proposed formula is "person x said y and there is a good reason for this, z", whereas it should be "person x said y, giving the reason z". --FormerIP (talk) 00:08, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

It's basically using an article about X to comment about Y. Here, it's using this article to comment on the Italian judicial system in a negative manner. The crime didn't happen in the US, so US procedures aren't going to be followed. You will get commentary from people saying that they don't like the Italian system, but adding those to this article is pushing COATRACK a lot. Ravensfire (talk) 00:40, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

LedRush: You say above: "I've never even heard of tabloids going after someone accused of a crime with such venom for such an extended period of time". My question is: where have you heard about this? I think it is reasonably important to distinguish the arguments of a PR campaign from objective facts. It's a sourced fact that some people have characterised tabloid coverage in this way, but that doesn't make it objectively true (i.e. suitable for unattributed inclusion in the article or, more to the point, as a working assumption that should guide the attiudes of editors). Are there any examples of the type of coverage we are talking about? How prominent or regular was this type of coverage?

A similar thing applies in terms of the rules governing juries in Italy. All kinds of things might have been said by Knox's defenders, but they should not be taken unquestioningly. The claims in the Time article are simply wrong - it is poorly researched. Sequestration of juries is not normal in the US ([10]). Juries are also not routinely screened for bias in the US, only for eligibility to serve, although jurors may be challenged by way of a voir dire (see page 47 of this book: [11]). It is hard to imagine that there is no equivalent process in Italy, because it is always going to be necessary to remove jurors with a direct interest in a case. --FormerIP (talk) 23:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Juries are always tested for bias in the US through voir dire. Also, they are sequestered in cases where media coverage can be prejudicial, as stated in your citation. Furthermore, no one is taking things said by Knox supporters without question. We are reporting on media reports of the trial and the coverage of the trial. And the idea that we should not explain the nature of the Italian system, especially as it is in direct contrast to the US and UK ones, from which most of our readers come, seems strange to me. Also, if you are accusing Time, CBS, the Telegraph, and other media outlets of bias regarding the nature of Italian and British media coverage, I hope you can provide some sources.LedRush (talk) 01:18, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay well I can basically agree about voir dire, although I don't think "always" is true - it's a question of whether the defence lawyers choose to challenge any jurors. This is the same as in the UK and probably essentially the same as in Italy. On sequestration, the source doesn't say "they are sequestered in cases where media coverage can be prejudicial", is says they can be, but that "sequestration has fallen so far out of favor that judges rarely bother anymore". Again, this is probably the same as in Italy. Can we at least agree that the Time article is in error.

Dependent on context, it may be appropriate to explain the Italian system so long as this is not coatracking and we have solid sourcing for our explanations (ie we are not just regurgitating someone's spin).

If "we are reporting on media reports of the trial and the coverage of the trial" then fair enough. My query was about where in these media reports and coverage it talks about "tabloids going after someone accused of a crime with ... venom for ... an extended period of time" or similar. --FormerIP (talk) 02:12, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that in Italy they test for bias through voir dire, or at least Time and other outlets have reported that this is not so. And no, I don't agree that the Time article is in error. I don't know that the Slate is more knowledgeable than Time in this matter, and my own personal knowledge lends me to believe that my earlier statement is correct: juries are sequestered where media coverage can be prejudicial. That the Time article an the Slate article seem not to contradict this common knowledge confirms my view. I am not asking that any such views be entered into the article, merely a neutral representation of the article itself, as presented above. Also, in Italy it seems that you can research the case independently, which is also not the case in the US or the UK. I have never asked for my statement regarding the venom with which the tabloids have attacked Knox to be introduced into the article; that was a discussion I had with Errant. I asked for the material above, impeccably sourced, to be included.LedRush (talk) 02:35, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

LedRush, your own personal knowledge or what seems to be the case is not what counts. We can't reproduce information which is contradicted by other sources and appears to be just bad journalism. If you don't want it to be entered into the article, would you support an edit request for its removal?

What I am saying about your "venom" comment, which is simply for you to reflect on, is that you do not know this to be the case, you are assuming that the claim's of Knox's defenders are correct. I would suggest that this is just PR spin that Marriott knew would be easy for Americans to buy. In reality, the UK tabloids printed some material from K & S's MySpace accounts about their personal lives. Whilst I would agree that none of this material is very important or should be taken to indicate their guilt, it is not surprising or unusual that it was printed. --FormerIP (talk) 02:58, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

This is getting sidetracked, no source has raised the issue of whether this is an unusual approach to juries (in general) or discussed it in any depth. The source that does do a comparison is "meh", not really worth including. However let's not get sidetracked from the content being discussed.

I find FormerIP's assessment unconvincing. Firstly I would like to get away from over quoting this; it is a very poor writing style and tends to lead to NPOV problems as we fail to clarify opinion and fact, and give advocates a soapbox to take control of how facts are portrayed. In fact, it is bad practice to continually attribute material in a "he said, she said" format, because (as I touched on above) you tend to portray both non-neutral sides, rather than portray a neutral off-hand description of the material.

Let's get back to basic principles here. We have three pieces of information to cover:

Supporters criticise the media coverage
Supporters claim that this may have influenced the jury
Who were not sequestered in this case

Two of those things are opinion, one of them is a fact that contextualises the opinions. If they were sequestered would you not agree this would be pertinent information (indeed, why do I get the impression someone would be insisting it be presented as a fact... :))? So the fact they are not is just as relevant.

But lets be clear; the supporters do not appear to have mentioned (at least in the sources I read) anything about the Jury not being sequestered. Instead RS's are adding it, to inform the reader as to the context of the criticism. So from that perspective it is incorrect to attribute it as an opinion (remember, please deal in what the sources say).

Presentation of this fact has to be done carefully; we cannot present it as supporting the opinion (i.e. the source discussed above is inappropriate), only as something that informs the reader (which is why I want to avoid a sentence that uses "because").

Bottom line is.. the current paragraph is bad, and I think this:

The case attracted intense media coverage in Italy and the UK. Knox's supporters and other journalists criticised her negative portrayal in the tabloids, saying that jurors (who were not sequestered) may have been influenced. Anne Bremner, head of the "Friends of Amanda" support group, said "Amanda has been depicted as a she-devil, a temptress and a promiscuous manipulator and that’s not just not true, it’s also very damaging"

Is a major improvement in both writing and neutrality :) --Errant ^(chat!) 08:29, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Four comments: 1. The first sentence is obviously, 100% true. But it has garnered intense coverage in the US as well, I'm not sure why that is left off (it's in the lede). 2. I would change "in the tabloids" to in the "British and Italian media". First off, this makes the sentence actually true (it wasn't merely the tabloids that negatively portrayed her). But it also follows the sources we are using. 3. I would change negatively to "negatively and inaccurately". It is supported by the sources, and has the benefit of being true. I think it is normal to depict a defendent accused of murder in a somewhat negative light, but the media should be accurate. They have not been. Even still using the word negatively soft sells the content of the criticism, but this POV is lessened by adding my language. 4. The sequestered part is not essential (though it is helpful), as I have argued above. The most important aspect is that the jurors can read the newspapers and conduct investigations outside of evidence presented in the courtroom, unlike in the US and the UK.LedRush (talk) 14:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I believe it's also objectively true to say that the tide of media opinion has turned and that no British newspapers are currently writing in support of the original verdict. I'm not sure about the Italian papers, but I know OGGI does not support guilt. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 15:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Have you got a particular source in mind for "inaccurately", LedRush. This doesn't seem to be supported by the Observer piece. --FormerIP (talk) 15:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)If we add "innacurately" to negatively, that makes me uncomfortable because it is not a readily obvious fact. It is the reason I included the quote at the end (which identifies the opinion of supporters that the press coverage has been untrue) because I feel that it is the opinion that does need to be expressely quoted. #1 & #2 I agree with, no issues. r.e. #4 The most important aspect is that the jurors can read the newspapers and conduct investigations outside of evidence presented in the courtroom, unlike in the US and the UK I am uncertain we have a source that accurately covers this. Indeed I am unable to fill out the background on this, except I have found something in a legal text book which indicates this isn't entirely true. I find that whole aspect ill-defined and badly covered. If we were to go into depth on this then I'd like to see a source qualified to discuss the differences and highlight the concerns (for example; although UK/US jurors are banned from forming viewing evidence outside of the courtroom there is no practical reason why the influence would not be the same in those countries - the crucial point of fact is that the jury were not sequestered, so irrespective of any other rules, they could be exposed to media coverage). --Errant ^(chat!) 15:28, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Here's a useful BBC source on the topic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11823193 --Errant ^(chat!) 15:36, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

This too, though a little old: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7879293.stm --Errant ^(chat!) 15:42, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

[ECs]I've provided links for the UK and US above. The major source for the US is this Time article: "In the Italian justice system, it pays to play to the press. Most trials are presided over by professional magistrates, but some — like Knox's — also include a panel of jurors known as "citizen judges." Unlike in the U.S., where those deciding a case are carefully screened for bias and sequestered during the proceedings, Italian jurors are not only free to hold preconceived opinions; they're also at liberty to follow the news of the trial as it unfolds, leaving them vulnerable to swings in popular sentiment." [12]LedRush (talk) 15:44, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Just to elaborate on my position, you don't need to be sequestered to not be able to see media coverage. In the US and the UK, you are not allowed to read the media coverage of the event, regardless of whether or not you are sequestered. Of course, if you are not sequestered, you don't have someone actually controlling what you do. However, there are many cases in the US where jurors are found to have read about the case and have been dismissed (or the verdicts thrown out). There was even a ~~mistrial~~ verdict thrown out because jurors claimed to look for information and guidance in the bible. {Later edit: perhaps I was thinking of this case [13]} In Italy, this is not the case at all. We don't need to explain how the US and the UK works, but we should explain how Italy works seeing as it is so dramatically different than what an average native speaker of English would expect.LedRush (talk) 15:55, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

LedRush, the Time article is worse than junk. As discussed above, what it says about the US and Italian legal processes is contradicted by other sources. It isn't a reliable source for describing those processes. --FormerIP (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm really having a hard time understanding your position here. Are you 1. Questioning that in the US you can't read media reports [14][15][16] and are screened for bias[17]? If so, please provide a source; 2.Questioning that in the UK you can't read media reports or conduct outside research[18][19]? If so, please provide a source. 3. Questioning that in the Italy you can read media reports or are not screened for bias? If so, please provide a source. I have sources for all three of these comments above.LedRush (talk) 16:27, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not overly interested in whether you can conduct outside research in the UK or read media reports in the US, because I don't think those facts in themselves are relevant to the article.

What I'm saying is that the article linked to above in Time is not a reliable source for information about legal processes, because the claims it makes about legal process are contradicted by more authoritative sources. For example according to the article "in the U.S. ... those deciding a case are carefully screened for bias and sequestered during the proceedings". But this source [20] explains the jury selection process in the US, which includes screening for eligibility but not bias (voir dire is something separate and is not a screening process - Italy undoubtedly has something similar to this). This source [21] says "Sequestration (in the US) has fallen so far out of favor that judges rarely bother anymore".

So, although I don't know what the law is in Italy regarding juries and the media, the last person I would ask is the woman who wrote this badly-researched op-ed in Time. --FormerIP (talk) 17:44, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

We are way over the line into OR here, but to clear this up; there are no jurors in this trial (my wording was wrong on that, bah). They are lay judges, which does mean, yes, they cannot be excused in the way jurors can be. However; it is possible to object to a specific lay judge and have them removed. They appear to be checked prior to appointment, similar to the UK/US. There is no sequestering but I think it is inaccurate to say that they are allowed to conduct outside investigations and to read/consider media reports. There appears to be no specific law restricting them (or, to be more specific, a law to prosecute them if they do so), but it seems a stretch to present it as if they are encouraged to do so. My secondary point, of course, is that just because the UK/US have laws to prosecute Jurors who do these things doesn't stop them from doing so :) Hence; the point is rather moot. Jurors and Judges might be influenced by the media, this is logical no matter the specific rules and laws involved, and in this case they are not sequestered. QED. Saying they are allowed to read and be influenced by the media seems to be POV to me. FormerIP's point is sound; the Time article is not a good source for this material --Errant ^(chat!) 17:48, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Might just be easiest to include a paragraph (maybe by the trial section) going over the Italian judicial system and how this trial was conducted (number of judges, burden level, etc), then highlight how that differs from the US or UK. Include a link to the main Italian judicial system article at a relevant point. We can't add judgements about the Italian system in general here - that's textbook WP:COATRACK, even if sourced. Judgements about THIS trial only are a different story. Ravensfire (talk) 18:02, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

First off, FormerIP, your source is basically a primer on how to screen for bias, supporting all my claims. Thank you very much.

Secondly, all the sources I see say that there are jurors in this trial in addition to two judges. I don't know if Errant is having an issue with vocabulary, if the media has an issue with vocabulary, or if Errant is just mistaken.

Otherwise, I have no idea how this conversation has gone off the tracks as it has. I have proven conclusively that in the US you cannot conduct outside research and are screened for bias. I have proven that in the UK you are not allowed to read outside reports. I don't even what these statements in the article and I've been forced to prove them! The Time article is magically not reliable because one source could be interpreted to mean something different than one aspect of the Time article that I don't even want in this article. (by the way, ABCnews says the same thing about the Italian jury here [22] The simple point is this: if the Italian system works differently than our readers would expect (hence the reason I proved how the US and UK work), we should point this out. This new formulation is totally broken until this important fact is addressed.LedRush (talk) 18:17, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Umm, no I am right. The sources are wrong. Apparently we do actually have an article about the court Corte d'Assise. Ravensfire's idea is a good one. --Errant ^(chat!) 18:49, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations (even if the WP article seems to point to the very same semantic point I made, whatever). Can you now address the actual points I made?LedRush (talk) 18:58, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

And, that WP article doesn't contain one working link so I couldn't check it, but it appears to back up the claims made by Time and ABC news about non-sequestering of jurors/lay judges. I say this not because I want to include any information about sequestering.LedRush (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

LedRush. The source I linked to above is not "a primer on how to screen for bias", it is a textbook on jury selection in the US. It explains fairly clearly that screening is one element in this overall process, which has nothing to do with bias. If you read pp 46-8, you should get some understanding of the difference between screening for a jury and challenging a juror. This is an important distinction to understand.

The ABC article doesn't seem to contain anything that has been disputed in this discussion. --FormerIP (talk)

Regarding your book, I don't know if you are trying to play some semantics game or are just playing dumb as a stall tactic, but it clearly indicates how you can screen for bias. It directly supports all the other RSs I have found which state that in the US lawyers screen jurors for bias. This is completely non-controversial and I consider the issue over until or unless you can provide any proof at all that this fundamental, and well-known right is not true.LedRush (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The ABC article contains the following quote: "Knox's fate was decided by two Italian judges and six jurors who were not sequestered, screened for biases and could freely read media reports." It directly supports all the assertions I've made above, and all the other sources on this.LedRush (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Sequestering has never been under dispute in the above discussion, so don't see the relevance per se on that one. The pouint was to explain that the Italian system is no the same as the Jury system used in the UK/US. This is useful information that should be in the article. I don't think it needs to be in the part where supporters are criticising the media coverage (I have actually said this all along...) --Errant ^(chat!) 19:17, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Instead of the sequestering parenthetical, I have proposed a parenthetical that says that the lay judges/jurors in the Italian cases are not screened for bias and they can read the news. This is essential information when talking about criticisms of the media coverage made by journalists and supporters and it is information that I have proven is different from the US and UK systems.LedRush (talk) 19:39, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

It should be stressed that these are not jurors as the term is used in the US system, but are lay judges that have a very different role in the entire judicial system. It's definitely something very different from most of the US. Well, it's also different from Louisiana law, but that's also a different system. Ravensfire (talk) 20:09, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Should also add that this system is only used for certain serious crime. Murder and Terrorism are given as examples in the WP article. Attempted murder would not be tried under this system. Ravensfire (talk) 20:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment. This discussion is now very long and it seems that it has developed into multiple discussions about different things which I'm finding a bit confusing. One is whether the Time article is reliable, another is whether the "jurors" in the case should be described as something else, yet another is whether the article should incorporate an overview of the Italian legal process. There may be others. Any chance we could split some of those discussions off? --FormerIP (talk) 20:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Confusion regarding RS's

I am a bit confused on this. I would appreciate any and all clarification in regards to this issue. It has been declared within this article perimeter, that the Daily Mail is in fact a RS. I am curious how it becomes a RS, when in fact Dear Meredith's own father John Kercher, writes for this paper. As seen in the following link below. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?authornamef=John%20Kercher It also is sourced that Mr. Kercher, in fact was notified by his close friends of this media about, Meredith's being the victim of this murder.

Would this in fact not make this RS a bias source to use? This is in fact the Victim , Dear Meredith's, father shown very close and involved in this source. I do not understand the validity of this in comparison to using the sources of others involved. The claims to my understanding for lack of their validity is they are considered Bias, as they are close to the case. Would this not be of mutual, conflict? ( Please note this is for personal clarification) Thank you kindly --Truth Mom (talk) 16:43, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

He appears to be a freelancer who occasionally writes for them, that doesn't necessairly undermine it as a RS. Being reliable consists of three factors; the publisher, the author and the content. The Daily Mail (publisher) is reasonably reliable by virtue of having editorial control, although it has a tendency to be tabloid which means we usually advise caution. The articles (content) can range from reliable to venal, so that is a judgement made on a case by case basis. And, of course, the author is also dealt with in this way. The fact the John Kercher has written four times for the mail in the past does not make it an unreliable source --Errant ^(chat!) 16:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, the Mail is in general not a great source, so best to use others if available :) --Errant ^(chat!) 16:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I very strongly agree that the Mail is in general not a great source, and would go even further: it should almost never be used for anything serious at all, particularly for anything that would be considered controversial, or anything that can be found in quality media or books from reputable publishers. There are rare cases in which I think the Mail may pass WP:RS but it would always need to be carefully justified. Do we have a particular example under consideration today?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I would like to Thank you Errant, for your clarifying this for me, this is exactly what I was looking for in regards to this question. Mr. Wales Thank you as well for you opinion, I will take note of it. There is not one particular example right at this moment, but I needed the above clarified , as stated above for personal knowledge. Both of you were very respectful within your response and I appreciate that. --Truth Mom (talk) 03:05, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The mail is used as a sole-source for the following information: "She[Kercher] had two older brothers and an older sister," "Towards the end of November, the prosecution and defence began summing up their cases," and to source that Kercher's father wrote something in the Mail. I don't see any of this as problematic. As a side note, I think it would help our discussions if you stopped using "Dear Meredith," and instead used "the victim" or "Kercher." Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 17:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

[[23]] --Truth Mom (talk) 01:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I didn't really see any problems with any of the information that used the Daily Mail as a source, though I didn't conduct an exhaustive search. However, I have no earthly idea how not calling her "Dear Meredith" could help our discussions in any way. Is there a hidden insult in that term or something?LedRush (talk) 17:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not encyclopedic. Passions are already high enough. Hipocrite (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Again, this is the problem this article has with single-purpose accounts; they are too wrapped up in the emotions of the case to really contribute objectively. Note the comment in an earlier section where "CodyJoeBibby" mocks one of the other criminals for being disowned by his family. I find nothing of value in comments such as that. Tarc (talk) 18:03, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk pages don't need to be encyclopedic. Also, I am not sure that Cody was mocking Guede, but merely pointing out that it is difficult to make the support sections for Sollecito and Guede as robust as that of Knox, based on both media coverage and actual support. If there is anything hidden about Cody's comments, I would guess (and this is just a guess) that he is hinting at this information informs as to who is guilty and who isn't. Of course, that in itself is not really useful for this discussion. But, this discussion isn't useful either...why don't you discuss the actual ideas instead of continually going after the editors?LedRush (talk) 18:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think I went after editors - I merely asked someone to stop using emotive language. I think that's a reasonable request - the kind of thing that should be granted pro-forma - even if I'm being irrational. Don't you agree? Hipocrite (talk) 18:39, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I generally agree. Perhaps I was being too sensitive, but it seemed to me that you were unnecessarily needling TruthMom. I think it's best not to use emotive language, but didn't find her comments disruptive or distracting in the slightest. But your overall point is a good one. My comment on going after other editors was for Tarc, and I should have made that clearer. However, it is also an overall relevant comment, and a useful reminder for everyone, including me.LedRush (talk) 18:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I move to strike the following lengthy sentence from the media coverage section of the article, sourced from the Daily Mail, as it adds no real information to the article and blames Amanda Knox for her 'fame' as though it's of her own volition. "On 2 December 2010, Kercher's journalist father, John, writing in the Daily Mail, condemned Knox's elevation to "celebrity" status as "utterly despicable," and that the "Foxy Knoxy" nickname, "trivialises the awfulness of her offence." He maintained that to the Kercher family, Knox is, "unequivocally culpable. As far as we are concerned, she has been convicted of taking our precious Meredith’s life in the most hideous and bloody way."[118]"

Can't this be compressed to something more compact with the link for people to follow to the full Daily Mail article? It seems unnecessarily inflammatory to include this lengthy condemnation of Knox given the high degree of uncertainty about the verdict, and given the large amount of basic information, such as the prosecutions's primary witness being in prison, which is currently censored from this article. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The Mail is undoubtedly reliable for the statements of writers in the Mail. Hipocrite (talk) 18:39, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Doesn't it seem to be a little hypocritical to seek to expand on so much detail about Amanda Knox while at the same time seeking to compress detail about Meredith Kercher? I mean, we have editors trying to include opinion from partisan "Friends of..." support groups while attacking the opinion of the woman's father? What on earth is going on here? Tarc (talk) 18:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

But is it necessary to include this entire emotional condemmnation of Knox in a neutral article? What is it adding? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]Tarc, I think the same question could be asked of you. I agree with Hipocrite that the views of the father are obviously relevant to a section about views of her supporters. However, it is currently in the "media coverage" section. Though this info doesn't really fit here, I do see it as a relevant statement and logical one to include.LedRush (talk) 18:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say some kind of statement shouldn't be there. I'm saying that this diatribe is way too much for a neutral article. Give a quick summary of the statement and a link to the full Daily Mail opinion piece. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with the length: two sentences on their opinion on the death of their daughter seems reasonable. My only comment would be to remove the claim that they've avoided media attention. Perhaps that was true at the time of writing, but it clearly isn't when the father is out there writing for papers, and the family are holding press conferences.LedRush (talk) 19:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing in the quote I posted about avoiding media attention, although of course it's untrue that JK has avoided it recently. I'm talking about the sentences quoted in this Wiki article as follows: "On 2 December 2010, Kercher's journalist father, John, writing in the Daily Mail, condemned Knox's elevation to "celebrity" status as "utterly despicable," and that the "Foxy Knoxy" nickname, "trivialises the awfulness of her offence." He maintained that to the Kercher family, Knox is, "unequivocally culpable. As far as we are concerned, she has been convicted of taking our precious Meredith’s life in the most hideous and bloody way."[118]"" Why do we need these inflammatory and in some ways untrue sentences quoted in full in the article? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Because we are talking about the media attention on the case, and the views of the different participants. My comment is about the sentence immediately prior to the ones you quote.LedRush (talk) 19:25, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Is it possible a new section on the family members views should be created? Or a subsection on the family member's media role? I think that John Kercher's article does not belong in media as it is. It was a very important article in explaining his own view. It isn't the view of the 'media' though. It would be the same if a quote from Knox's parents was included saying "our daughter is innocent". Of course they are going to say that and it isn't that relevant to media in general.Issymo (talk) 19:57, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

That's sort of what I'm saying. While I respect JK's opinion, I think this long, angry and inflammatory statement by him does not help the article's neutrality. Can the statement be shortened and can it be moved to the new section suggested by Issymo. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

WP:DRAMAOUT

[Note from Jimbo: please let's all sign this and have a great week! Please sign if you can!]

In the spirit of WP:DRAMAOUT, I hereby pledge to try my best to avoid comment on the behavior of other editors of this or related articles at least until it is past midnight this coming Friday night everywhere in the world. I will try to follow this no matter how annoying someone might be. I further pledge to set aside my own views of this case, to understand that Wikipedia is not the place to find guilt or innocence nor to try to sway public opinion. I will focus my energy that Wikipedia fairly and accurately describes the case and controversies surrounding it in such a way that all of us - no matter what our beliefs about the case - can shake hands at the end of the week and say "We are proud of what we have done here."

--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
~~Hipocrite (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)~~ Pledges only work if pledges follow them. The choice of others to comment on editors makes it inappropriate for me to remain here. Hipocrite (talk) 23:54, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
--Truth Mom (talk) 16:15, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
--Footwarrior (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
--LedRush (talk) 16:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
--⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 16:42, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
--BruceFisher (talk) 17:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for earlier, grouchy day for me :) not my usual approach! --Errant ^(chat!) 17:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Fancourt (talk) 18:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
--Tjholme (talk) 19:38, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
--NigelPScott (User talk:NigelPScott) 22.25, 11 April, 2011 (UTC) NigelPScott (talk) 21:25, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
--Perk10 (talk) 06:59, 15 April 2011 (UTC)Perk10
--Issymo (talk) 02:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
--CodyJoeBibby CodyJoeBibby (talk) 09:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
--Turningpointe (talk) 16:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

We note here that Tarc did not add a signature to the Dramaout as JW requested; I would ask Errant, Dreamguy and JW to take note of those who have and remind those who have not that it does not give them carte blanche to make condescending and insulting comments ("they are too wrapped up in the emotions of the case to really contribute objectively") and accusations about "single purpose accounts" against others here because they have agreed to behave in a civilized manner and not discuss or point out the negative or disturbing attributes of any given editor (at least until "after midnight on Friday"). It is indicative of a "bully" when one launches attacks on those who, for one reason or another, can not or will not fight back. It is also a sign of arrogance and "territorial" behavior, both of which arise when ones POV has been bullied into place then left without challenge for whatever reason for far, far too long. I imagine everyone started with Wiki somewhere because of an interest in something; I imagine everyone posted their first piece, talk..et al..somewhat timidly, as if testing the water, on an article illuminating a subject that was of a 'particular' or 'unusual' amount of interest to them. My first post was on December 23 right here: You can see where that went. (annulla) I recall there had been other attempts made under an IP but those edits were also 'annulled'. My eyes have been on this and other Wiki pages in general for a long time but I would never assume "squatting" rights as others apparently have and I am shocked that anyone would so actively resent those who wish to add a different point of view. I request disciplinary action be taken against any who would try to bully we who signed JW's 'Dramaout' into a negative verbal dispute. Thankyou.Fancourt (talk) 19:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Small point; I have always opposed to concept of the "drama out" and have in fact been a signatory to the "counter" sections at those, e.g. Wikipedia:NODRAMA/1#Counter-protest. I believe that doing the "hey look at me, I'm not causing drama!" shtick is in itself quote overdramatic. You attempt to "call me out" is a shining example of that. So yea, I have no interest in signing something that is, IMO, meaningless. I do not care passionately about this case one way or the other; Amanda Knox and the others can go free or be jailed for life, whatever the evidence points to is what it is. I would just like to see the fervent activism come to a end; it is misplaced and not conducive to editing an encyclopedia. Tarc (talk) 19:43, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I would ask that all involved look at the content being proposed and not at those suggesting it. If the information can be properly sourced it should not matter if a veteran Wikipedian or a newbie brought it forward. This article has had many issues and some of those issues occurred because Wikipedia relies on the media's account of any given situation. This case was handled very poorly by the press. This is not simply my opinion, there is documented proof showing egregious errors made by the press. This inacurate reporting no doubt influenced the wikipedia article. As the media works to correct the errors of their past, much more accurate information is coming to light. Those who have already based their beliefs on the original (inaccurate) reporting may find the new information hard to accept. This is the unfortunate damage caused by negligence in the media and I feel this negligence has led to much of the tension that we have seen here. I think that Mr. Wales suggestion above is excellent and I hope to see everyone sign on.

It seems to me that the topic of single purpose accounts was brought up at an odd time. Another user referred to the victim as "Dear Meredith." Tarc responded by saying that comments like that show the problems with single purpose accounts. I honestly cannot see how showing compassion for the victim is beneficial to one side or the other. I would hope we would all show compassion in this regard and I would certainly hope this is one detail that we could all agree on. BruceFisher (talk) 22:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Drama is like a viscous monster, that being said if not a single source of food is offered to it, It starves to death : ) Let them be, I simply pay them no mind.If your not part of the solution, it makes you part of the problem .....Let us continue our NO DRAMA efforts, and get to the reason we are all here :) Thank you kindly, --Truth Mom (talk) 13:57, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Washington Superior Court Judge calls Knox 100% Innocent after researching case and details for 3 years

This is just another article that evidences actual controversy over the ruling in the the Knox and Sollecito trials. It gives a good overview of how many in the US perceived the Italian media coverage of the trial, as well as some popular controversies in the first trial. I would think the cite could be used in a new sentence in the media coverage section, or merely as an added citation to sentences in that section. [24] LedRush (talk) 17:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, off the bat I'd say that the personal investigative is 100% irrelevant; despite the judicial position held, nothing qualifies this man as an expert in the field. Apart from that, what I also notice about much of the Knox-is-innocent sourcing is that it originates from Seattle-centric media outlets, particularly seattlepi.com. Beyond the occasional Time or Vanity Fair story, is there anywhere else less...localized and too close to the source...that is keeping this "controversy" afloat? Tarc (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Are you actually disputing that the case is controversial? Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I would think that a superior court judge would be considered a general legal expert, not to mention an expert at judging the relevance of evidence and the guilt or innocence of the accused. In fact, I would say this is a judge's primary expertise.

Regarding coverage, this story was picked up in a few other outlets (radar.com, examiner online). Also, Time, the Washington Post, the Associated Press, CBS and many other major media outlets have weighed in on the controversy in the last two weeks (we even have some of these cited in the article!), so it is fair to say this case is still extremely controversial.LedRush (talk) 17:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Need to be a bit careful, but I see no reason not to include his opinion in the article under the critical responses, he is qualified to comment on the legal process I guess. We'd have to figure out the exact quotes but I'd be inclined to go with saying he thinks she is innocent and quote him on his views of the justice system. Perhaps: "Their justice system is great, but like our justice system, it is run by people and can be abused, mistakes can be made," --Errant ^(chat!) 17:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The balancing information would be Heavey's close family relationship to Knox [25] and the fact that he is an organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign [26]. --FormerIP (talk) 17:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Ok, seems reasonable. So how about this; Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, a friend of the Knox family and organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign, at an April 1 2011 dinner said that he believed Knox to be innocent. He criticised the trial calling it "a terrible injustice", but said that the appeals judge "appears to be pretty fair." Thoughts? --Errant ^(chat!) 18:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with FormerIP that the balancing info must be presented. I like Errant's formulation, but wonder if we couldn't get more specific with criticisms without adding undue bulk. If not, I'm fine with Errant's, but I will go to the source and see if I can't find something both specific and appropriate.LedRush (talk) 18:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I dunno, I just don't see the relevance. At first it appeared to be just some non-partial judge who looked at the notes and evidence and what not and declared "she's innocent". Honestly, that was bad enough; again, what importance should be given to someone who is for all intents and purposes simply second-guessing a court case from another jurisdiction? Now that we know that this person is part and parcel to one side of the controversy, that reduces what appeared to be an impartial point of view to a partisan one. And hat we're left with is a person in the supporter camp expressing...support. Is that notable?

To LedRush; did you have any knowledge of Michael Heavey's involvement before you posted that seattlepi.com link here? Tarc (talk) 18:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

No, I didn't. When I read the aritcle it said that he had investigated the matter for 3 years and I assumed that he would be like the DNA experts or Moore, who started off impartially, were convinced of innocence, and then lent support to the Knox campaign. This appears to be different as he already had a connection. I think the information is still relevant, but perhaps this is better placed in the support for Knox section with an introduction to what the Friends of Amanda group is.LedRush (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Errant's wording sounds accurate and also addresses FormerIP's concerns. BruceFisher (talk) 18:22, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't see how this impartial wording could be criticized. Tarc might like to get some quotes from other US judges or lawyers who have spoken out about the fairness of Knox's trial. That would balance things out. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:33, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

No, it really wouldn't. Private citizens expressing their personal opinions on the matter are not really relevant to the subject matter. Everyone has opinions, just like everyone has a certain famous body part. That doesn't mean they get to be name-dropped into the article, especially if they are biased. Adding a laundry list of "I agree with the verdict", "I disagree with the verdict" is the last thing this article needs to be cluttered with. Tarc (talk) 18:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The case is controversial. The media covers that controversy. We cite to what the media covers.LedRush (talk) 18:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

This article is evidence of controversy. The case is controversial and the article should reflect that clearly. BruceFisher (talk) 18:44, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Neither of your comments addressed what I actually said, which was discussing the relevance of people's opinions to the case. In the Support for Knox section as it stands now, we have the Knox family (obviously), Senator Cantwell (presumably the representative of the district where Knoxs' family is from, i.e. speaking for her constituents) and Hillary Clinton (in her capacity as the Secretary of State. And you wish to place the support of a partisan supporter alongside the family, a sitting Senator and the Secretary of State, simply because the SeattlePI published it?

And yes, overall there is some degree of controversy regarding the case. But what IMO some here are missing is that there's a critical difference between covering the controversy and advocating for what the controversy is about. Tarc (talk) 18:56, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think you'll find this is one of the most controversial cases of the century given the amount of books, articles, TV, film and internet coverage about it. I don't see how that's reasonably disputable. Judge Heavey's comments were reported on in the media at some length, so we refer to the fact that they were reported. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 19:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]I'm pretty sure I directly addressed your argument, but whatever. Do you think that the Friends of Amanda group is not notable enough for a "support of Knox" section, despite their widespread coverage in the news?LedRush (talk) 19:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Speaking for myself only - I would have no problem with such a section. Hipocrite (talk) 19:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

LedRush, the article you linked to does not mention the "Friends of Amanda" group, it only details Harvey making these comments on his own behalf at a Rotary Club breakfast. I will also note that the original article comes from the Bellevue Reporter, a weekly, local circular. So in summation; we have a judge, once censured for working on pro-Knox advocacy on the job and also a member of an advocacy group of same, who, over pancakes and sausages to fellow Rotarians, declares Knox "100% innocent" of the murder, a case in which he became interested after seeing it in the news. This is not encyclopedia or notable in the slightest. And Cody, "trial of the century" is a gross exaggeration; I can rattle off anything from OJ to the Menendez brothers to Son of Sam to the Scopes trial that far, far outshadows this. Also, the SeattlePI reporting the Bellevue reporter's story is hardly "media at some length". Please, tone down the hyperbole. Tarc (talk) 19:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure what your point about the article not mentioning Friends of Amanda is. I have now suggested that we introduce Friends of Amanda to the article in the "support for amanda". I also suggested that this quote from the judge could find a place in such a section, in substantially similar form to the versions that Errant and I have suggested. And while your POV on what the judge said is humorous, it is obviously not the full picture. It would be just as accurate to state that a superior court trial judge, after investigating the evidence for over 3 years, has come to the conclusion that Knox and Sollecito are innocent, and that the police actions in relation to this crime were unethical. However, that would ignore some important info, which is why we have the different formulations proposed on this thread.

Regarding the crime of the century stuff, Tarc, you listed a bunch of crimes that did not happen in this century. I don't know if this is the crime of the century or not (I would imagine crime of the decade would be a less misleading name), but I can't think of a more publicized and controversial crime in the 2000s off the top of my head.LedRush (talk) 20:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

If people are determined to be pedantic about it then yes, more accurately I perhaps should have said 'most controversial case this century so far'. I of course was not claiming to be able to see the future. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:06, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You're conflating two issues here. This section is about the judges comments, if you wish to add something about "friends of amanda" or whatever, then take that up somewhere new. This person's personal opinion on the case is IMO not relevant to the article; it adds no value, no meaning, this person is not a famous figure or personality and has a proven bias when it cmes to the subject matter. As for "crime of the century", I use the term colloquially, i.e. "in the last 100 years" sense. Not literally since 2001.

Facepalm . Tarc (talk) 20:10, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure where you get your supposed colloquial use of the word 'century' as meaning the last 100 years, since both I and LedRush merely assumed you were mistaken. It can't be very colloquial if people just simply don't know what you mean. Respectfully, CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

[EC]The issue of the Friends of Amanda has been brought up here, having grown organically out of an open dialog, as should happen on WP. If you cannot discuss these related issues in one spot, you don't have to.

[EC]On the term century, I have never, ever heard the term to mean "in the last 100 years". Perhaps this is an issue with American/UK English.LedRush (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not even the crime of this century - just off the top of my head, Andrea Yates, The Scream. Hipocrite (talk) 20:27, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I've never heard of Andrea Yates. I dimly remember the Munch painting being stolen. They got it back, didn't they? Searching for Andrea Yates on Google returns 463,000 results. Searching for Amanda Knox returns 7,790,000 results. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Shows the power of a PR campaign, doesn't it? Ravensfire (talk) 20:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Please review WP:GOOGLE. Also, can you think of a reason why a 2001 case would have fewer hits than a 2011 case? I can find multiple neutral reliable sources calling both the Munch painting and the Yates trial possible crimes of the century. Hipocrite (talk) 20:37, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure the PR campaign was responsible for the Italian and British presses for demonizing Knox and sensationalizing every aspect of her life until she was referenced as a drug addicted slut who slept with 70 men in 60 days in Italy. That's all the Knox's fault...right.LedRush (talk) 20:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Come on, seriously? Ravensfire (talk) 20:43, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I find the comment about the PR campaign to be out of line. If you would like to suggest that continued interest in this case has been fueled by a PR campaign then I would expect you to back that up with proof. This case remains in the news because its highly controversial, not because Amanda's family paid a firm to control the media (a claim that is absurd of course), as we have heard repeated extensively throughout this ordeal. I don't know if you realized what your statement referred to in terms of this case, but discussion involving PR campaigns are more that often directed at attacking the Knox family. The truth is Amanda's parents hired a firm to help organize interviews with the media. They were in a situation that was very new to them and asking for assistance was not out of the ordinary. BruceFisher (talk) 15:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

[6ECs]I guess it's not really productive to discuss here, but I wouldn't think those crimes close to this one in terms of controversy or media coverage. However, I haven't reasearched this and don't think we should waste or time discussing this. We don't need this to the biggest anything - we merely need to report on the controversy. (on a side note, thank you for adding to the ever expanding list of people who have biographical articles on WP despite being famous for 1 crime)LedRush (talk) 20:40, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

What was controversial about either of the cases you mention? Can you find any neutral reliable source which describes either case as more controversial than the Knox case? I think you need to give up this argument because it's futile. I have no clue who Andrea Yates is or who stole The Scream. Find something more interesting please. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I would suggest the following:

At an April 1 2011 dinner Washington Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, a friend of the Knox family and organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign, said that he believed Knox is "100 percent innocent". He criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and called the trial "a terrible injustice"[, though he said that the appeals judge "appears to be pretty fair]."

I don't mind the bracketed text being there, but I'm not really sure it adds too much.LedRush (talk) 18:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I am concerned that we are inserting opinions of little notability. A superior court judge who is family friends with the accused? People understand that Washington "Superior" courts are the first trial courts in Washington, right? It's superior only to the courts of Limited Jurisdiction - traffic court, small claims, and small actions. Hipocrite (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

In common law countries, superior courts just mean courts of general jurisdiction. In the US, states that name a level of court as superior are referring to the lowest form of general jurisdiction courts (i.e., above all limited jurisdiction courts, but below appellate and final (supreme) court levels).LedRush (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Right, so why are we including the opinions of a justice of such a low level court? Hipocrite (talk) 19:12, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I guess I don't see the highest trial court judge as "such a low level court" or someone who's opinion should be discounted. But, as per above, I think it's best to fold this into an explanation of the Friends of Amanda group in the "support for knox" section of the article.LedRush (talk) 19:17, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

In the grand scheme of the judicial system, state trial judges are pretty darn low. Ravensfire (talk) 20:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

(e/s's) This should definitely not go in the Media Coverage section, it's much more appropriate for the Support section since it's just uncritical reporting of what the person said. Better would be to recast it to talk about Friends of Amanda first, perhaps using one of Heavey's quotes. To dwell more on Heavey would perhaps mean balance would require a note that the person was censured (as I read it here) for actions in the same interestcarried out while a judge. Franamax (talk) 19:34, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Judge Heavey is known to the Knox family, as has been stated. I believe his children may have attended the same school as Amanda. That connection would have made him interested in the case, but he waded into it in public because he thinks that the evidence used to convict does not stack up. It is not reasonable to suppose that a judge would put his reputation on the line just as a favour to the family. The same goes for the other people with particular skills e.g. Steve Moore, who have spoken out. These guys have considerable careers and reputations and would not go public on a whim. It seems that as soon as anyone with credentials looks at the case and questions the judgement, some editors immediately dismiss them as friends of the accused and say they should be ignored as being biased. I would say that their views are at least as relevant as those of some of the tabloid journalists whose articles have been quoted here as reliable sources. Judge Heavey is not the only Knox advocate, or even the best qualified, but his comments are newsworthy and worthy of inclusion. I support LedRush in this and I think his form of words could be used. NigelPScott (talk) 21:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Franamax is right, this is definitely for the support section. He is giving his opinion in support. I think he is notable for the close association and his role in "Friends of Amanda". Ultimately I never see much issue with including some opinions like this we'll probably end up with quite a few but at some point in the future they can be reviewed and the least notable culled. and say they should be ignored as being biased.; no, but their opinions alone cannot be considered reliable. If they advance a view, it is one of support, unless neutral reliable sources agree. This is the core to being a reliable source. That he is newsworthy doesn't matter as we are specifically not a news source :) The rest of your argument is speculation, and not relevant. --Errant ^(chat!) 21:23, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Why isn't LedRush right...he said it first *sad panda face*LedRush (talk) 21:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

My view (with myself being connected to a Superior Court Judge personally) (Not this one) are that it really takes a serious and strong issue for them to stand up for or even against any situation like this. Judges, are not ones to question the work or orders of others, unless they have been thoroughly convinced of the issue at hand. This is something to seriously take note of.I would like to see this and other means of support brought into the article as well. I also would like to see more elements for Raffaele, Rudy, and Dear Meredith into this brought into this article. The main focus from my view, is the focus directly to Amanda only. --Truth Mom (talk) 21:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

On a related note, it's interesting that Rudy Guede has no support at all. Even his foster family disowned him. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 21:41, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Why is that "interesting" ? That seems like a subtle dig more than a constructive addition to the conversation. Tarc (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

A note on methodology: I think it is not up to Wikipedia to determine whether Judge Heavey's dinner remarks are notable, nor whether he is a biased/unbiased observer of the case, nor whether his opinions are true or false. I think what we have to look at is whether or not his remarks are notable in the sense of covered by reliable sources. So far, we have only one major newspaper reporting on his remarks. Therefore, in my view, there is not yet sufficient reason to include them.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:30, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo, the current proposed text below does not include or reference this quote.LedRush (talk) 18:19, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Text for Addition to Support for Knox Section

In the summer of 2008, a group of individuals who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[27] This group believes that Knox has been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case.[28] Washington Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, a friend of the Knox family and organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign, has stated that he believes Knox is "100 percent innocent". At an April 1 2011 dinner Heavey criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and called the trial "a terrible injustice".[29]

This is a very rough sketch, and I welcome comments to both content and grammar.LedRush (talk) 21:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

No, because by your first source (which I found a few hours ago, wondering why no-one had brought that one up), "group of individuals" seems misleading, there appears to be non-arms-length connections here. And again, if you want to mention that one quoted is a judge, it seems to me you're duty-bound to note the judge was censured in a case revolving around the same matter. How can you say someone is a judge without mentioning that their judgement was found lacking in the very area in which you are quoting their comments? If it's just a person commenting, fine. If you want to say they are a judge, surely you also have to note the findings of the Judicial Commission on a directly-related matter. What am I missing here? Franamax (talk) 22:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what you're saying "no" to. I also don't know what you mean about there appearing to be non-arms-length connections. Also, the admonishment he received doesn't seem to relate to any of his qualifications as a judge, nor does it affect his statements. However, the consensus is to insist on this information, it doesn't seem to harm the actual statements much, other than bogging down a simple statement with an extra, superfluous statement.LedRush (talk) 23:36, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I see no problem with mentioning the censure, so long as it is qualified correctly that the reason he was censured was for using court stationary to comment on a pending criminal matter in an attempt to influence the proceeding. The exact text of the charges is "Respondent is charged with violating Canons 1, 2(A)and 2(B) of the Code of Judicial Conduct by writing letters on official court stationary to Nicola Mancino, Judge Claudia Matteini, and Giuliano Mignini (members of the Italian judicial system) on behalf of criminal defendant Amanda Knox; utilizing court staff to type those letters; and speaking publicly on several occasions about that same pending criminal case in an attempt to influence the proceeding." Heavy also self reported the conduct to the CJC, which I think is worth mentioning, but maybe not crucial (although all this can easily fit in one sentence, so I don't see it being a big deal). (GeniusApprentice (talk) 23:03, 11 April 2011 (UTC))

Agree with Franamax. Also, we wouldn't say "summer of 2008", as we don't use seasons to denote time. We could say "mid-2008" instead. --John (talk) 22:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

(e/c with below, haven't read that yet) Sorry LedRush that I may have to temporarily book off, but to address your query of what "No" meant, I agree it's a little ambiguous. So specifically, my initial objections were: "group of indidivuals" seems to obscure the fact that there were friends and acquaintances of the family who banded together; and I question using the last sentence, where you quote someone saying something during dinner. I say lots of stuff at the dinner table. Reviewing it all (which is what I have done since my last post 'til now when I must stop), I would rather switch around to say that I can't really agree with any of your proposed wording. At this point, with all due respect, I'm thinking that ErrantX's wording way up there would be a better starting point for discussion. Franamax (talk) 00:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

My language was only one step removed from Errant's, and we were talking about the same speech at the same rotary club dinner (not some random dinner). Anyway, hopefully my version below addresses these concerns in a way amenable to you.LedRush (talk) 00:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

How about this: I've added the info about the admonishment, and combined two sentences to make this section not become unwieldy...I deleted where and wen Heavey made the remarks, and also deleted that he thought she was innocent. I also deleted that he is a family friend (merely because we already say that Friends of Amanda contains family friends and because there were too many commas in the sentence) and added the admonishment info.

In mid-2008, a group of friends, lawyers, writers and scienteists who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[30][31] This group, which says that it is not affiliated with the Knox family and receives no funding from them,[32] believes that Knox has been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case.[33] Washington Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, an organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign who was officially admonished for using court stationary to write letters in support of Knox, has criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and called the trial "a terrible injustice".[34]LedRush (talk) 00:03, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

This misses out the relationship between Heavey and Knox, which I think is the most important part. --FormerIP (talk) 00:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I explained the reasoning above. Would you like to respond to that or suggest how we overcome this need to introduce all this extra information seamlessly?LedRush (talk) 00:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The point is really that the person quoted is a friend of the family and not merely a "Washington Superior Court Judge" who got interested in the campaign for some unknown reason. I'll have a go at an alternative version. --FormerIP (talk) 00:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's one of the reasons I included the fact that the Friends organization includes friends of the family (which should be obvious, but...). LedRush (talk) 01:18, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it should be obvious and we don't really need that detail in the first sentence IMO. It could easily be elided to: "In mid-2008, an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda was formed in Seattle". What needs to be clear is that the person quoted is a close friend of the Knox family. All that's needed is to add "and close friend of the Knox family" to the text. I don't think this would be repetitive but, in any event, the alternative is worse because it is misleading. --FormerIP (talk) 01:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

OK. I disagree that my language is misleading (in fact, it is quite leading) but in the spirit of compromise let's include the language. I know in the sources I found said that Heavey's daughters were friends with Knox, but I don't recall them saying that Heavey himself was a friend of the family. Could you provide a source, and then we'll just use the description that that source uses?LedRush (talk) 03:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

"vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case"; do we have this is quote form? Or a quote that says how they view the case? That way it is more clearly attributed to them (i.e. not in our voice) --Errant ^(chat!) 08:06, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that comes across as in our voice (the proposal says "This group...believes that". Anyhow, this is the source for that [35].

Here's a source for "family friend": [36]. --FormerIP (talk) 13:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

This is the form that this attempted paragraph is now taking

"[Insert name], a person with [list biases and connections here] has voiced support for [insert defendant name]."

a local weekly circular quotes someone's support of a participant in the case, someone so connected to one side that we have to devote as much text to qualifying his opinion as we do to the opinion itself. I strongly urge the reconsideration (by neutral editors) of adding this passage at all. Tarc (talk) 13:22, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems astonishing to me that a neutral editor could wish to exclude an explanation of the Friends of Amanda group from a section of the article dedicated to support for Knox. If we want, we could take out Heavey and put in their official legal counsel, which would decrease the amount of qualification which is done, but the group and it's views are notable.LedRush (talk) 14:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I see little to be astonished about when the quote in question originates in a suburban weekly flyer and is reprinted in a web newspaper. Tarc (talk) 14:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, perhaps you would be astonished if you actually addressed my point (and didn't misrepresent it): an explanation of the Friends of Amanda group from a section of the article dedicated to support for Knox is necessary and appropriate. The group is widely covered in the mainstream media (including Time (see below), newsweek, the telegraph, the guardian (see below) and on and on), it was only one Heavey quote which was from a regional newspaper. We could make essentially the same quote from Bremner from this Time piece [37].LedRush (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

And that gets back to what I noted yesterday, you're are conflating two issues and quotes into one. We have the "Friends of Amanda" noted by sources such as The Telegraph. Then we have Judge Heavey and his pot-luck breakfast speech. The notability of the former does not confer notability on the latter, even if the judge is a member of said group. Tarc (talk) 15:05, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

If that is your view, I suggest making a contructive suggestion regarding the proposed text, rather than merely obstructing any insertion of any kind. It seems that your newly found position is that you're ok with the first two sentences, but not ok with the third. Is that right?LedRush (talk) 15:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The newest version:

In mid-2008, a group of friends, lawyers, writers and scienteists who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[38][39] This group, which says that it is not affiliated with the Knox family and receives no funding from them,[40] believes that Knox has been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case.[41] Washington Superior Court Judge Mike Heavey, a Knox family friend and organiser for the Friends of Amanda campaign who was officially admonished for using court stationary to write letters in support of Knox[42], has criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and called the trial "a terrible injustice".[43][44]

The British documentary “The Trials of Amanda Knox” which was broadcast in the US in March, 2010 devotes considerable time to Judge Heavey’s comments on the case. That documentary is a reliable secondary source and is probably the best coverage of the case out there. It is quite neutral. Judge Heavy got into some minor trouble with the State Judicial commission for speaking out in Ms. Knox’s behalf. Important documents that he wrote to the Italian judiciary are here.

http://www.cjc.state.wa.us/Case%20Material/2010/5975%20Heavey%20SOC%20Answer.pdf

In those letters he talks about the HIV incident which is not part of the present Wikipedia article and needs to be. The TLC documentary is available on Youtube and should be viewed by all those who seek to study this case. It is very well done. This court document also gives direct source and wording, to the relationship at discussion, and how it became of his involvement.--Truth Mom (talk) 15:10, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Substituting counsel Bremner for Judge Heavey, per above discussion.

In mid-2008, a group of friends, lawyers, writers and scienteists who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[45][46] This group, which says that it is not affiliated with the Knox family and receives no funding from them,[47] believes that Knox has been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case.[48] The group's counsel, former prosecutor Anne Bremner, has criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and the character assissination the media have directed at Knox.[49][50]LedRush (talk) 15:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Why the substitution? Heavey seems to be their most prominent member. His testimony may need caveats, but that's sort of the point. I don't think its good to give the group sanitised coverage in that way. --FormerIP (talk) 18:20, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The substitution was simply because of Tarc's comments above (which Jimbo also related after the fact). Bremner is far more quoted in the mainstream press, and is the counsel for the group, and is sometimes referred to as the group's spokesperson. I don't see how including her provides sanitised coverage, but including Heavey doesn't. Are you ok with Heavey because he was admonished, or in spite of that fact? Regardless, this is going in the support for Knox section...it seems obvious to me that we would cover mainstream coverage of support for Knox. And it doesn't get more mainstream than Time and MSNBC.LedRush (talk) 18:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

The phrase "been vilified by a stubborn prosecutor in charge of a flawed case" is a too-close paraphrase of a copyrighted work, so if it goes in any section at all, we can refer to the appropriate noticeboard. And why is the "not affiliated" and "no funding" bit in there? It seems to be pre-answering the unmentioned facts of friendly connections and fundraising. Franamax (talk) 04:31, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The non affiliated and no funding bits are reported in the press, and are there because every single time anyone (whether scientist, lawyer, or reporter) says something critical of the trial, everyone and their mother wants to know what the connection is to the Knox family, whether it's there or not. In this case, it seems a relevant piece of information. I don't think that the phrase you list is a copyright violation, but I will rewrite it:

In mid-2008, a group of friends, lawyers, writers and scienteists who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[51][52] This group, which says that it is not affiliated with the Knox family and receives no funding from them,[53] believes that Knox has been demonized by a prosecutor obstinately forwarding a case with flaws.[54] The group's counsel, former prosecutor Anne Bremner, has criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and the character assissination the media have directed at Knox.[55][56]LedRush (talk) 12:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Umm, no, changing verbs and adverbs while preserving the structure and intent of the original writing is still a copyright violation (or plagiarism if you prefer). I suggest you read up on our copyright policy and you may also find our essay on close paraphrasing helpful. We write in our own words here, we don't just try to barely conceal our use of the words of others. Why are you insisting on using the phrasing of a (fairly obviously home-biased) reporter from a local paper? Quote the reporter directly if you think it's that important, or find a quote from an actual member of the group that represents the same position. Franamax (talk) 01:30, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

You gotta love this board. If you propose any text, people call it POV and demand you remain closer to the source. When you stay closer to the source, they call things which are clearly not copyright violations, copyright violations. And they do it in insultingly condescending tones.

But, let's address your concerns. Firstly, we are dealing only with a phrase. (please ready close paraphrasing). Secondly, we have different vocabulary and sentence structure (please see close paraphrasing). Finally, the materially fits in with the tone of the sentences and phrases around it. But in the spirit of friendly compromise, I will change this even more. If you still find it unacceptable, I would appreciate an actual constructive comment which proposes a specific fix which would meet your concerns.

In mid-2008, a group of friends, lawyers, writers and scienteists who believe that Knox is innocent formed an advocacy group named Friends of Amanda.[57][58] This group, which says that it is not affiliated with the Knox family and receives no funding from them,[59] believes that Mignini has demonized Knox in his obstinate pursuit of a case filled with holes.[60] The group's counsel, former prosecutor Anne Bremner, has criticised the conduct of the Italian authorities and the police, and the character assissination the media have directed at Knox.[61][62]LedRush (talk) 02:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

So, any objections?LedRush (talk) 19:03, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Ledrush. I don't think the sentence is accurate. Anne Bremner is a lawyer, but she is not technically "the group's counsel". When it's phrased like this, it implies that she works in her capacity as a lawyer for the group. In reality, she is a lawyer who happens to be part of the group. She doesn't represent them in any legal capacity. (GeniusApprentice (talk) 05:09, 14 April 2011 (UTC))

Some sources call her counsel, others spokesman. I don't really care which it is, but if you want the latter, you should get a source that says it (the current says counsel).LedRush (talk) 22:51, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

^ telegraph:Transcript of Amanda Knox's note

[1] telegraph:Transcript of Amanda Knox's note

[1]