Talk:Murder of Kelsey Smith

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Murder of Kelsey Smith article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

This article was nominated for deletion on 6 June 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

United States Low‑importance

	United States portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Disappearance

Could end up being a notable case, but it would make sense for anyone revising the article, to spell disappearance correctly, and move it to Kelsey Smith.ǂ---Sturmde 00:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notable?

While many people do go missing every day, not all of them get a 20-minute segment on Fox News (which I was watching last night, purely for comedic value, I swear!). I logged on to the Wiki to see if she had an article, and she did. While I hadn't heard of her until I watched the "special" news last night, it does seem like this is a nationally recognized name.

However, I will not oppose a deletion, as a Google search for "Kelsey Smith" doesn't even turn up with this Kelsey Smith as the first entry, and many of the other entries there are not about this Kelsey Smith. (I know that Google searches aren't the end-all-be-all of notability criteria, but come on.) –King Bee ^{(τ • γ)} 13:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's nice to know you watch news specials about kidnapped, murdered teenagers for comedic value. Talmage 08:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think (hope) it was the Fox News that was for comedic value, not the murdered woman.71.63.119.49 02:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, a Google search for 'Kelsey Smith' returns a news article relating to the kidnapping as the first link, so you can say that she has become notable if that is one of your criteria.

True, many people go missing every day, but not all of them receive the kind of national attention this case has. That alone in my opinion makes it a notable case and not a candidate for deletion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.11.254 (talk • contribs)

It's not really one of the criteria, but I use it kind of as a litmus test just to see what's going on. I also don't count that news article as the first link, because that is a "Google News" link, not a regular website link. –King Bee ^{(τ • γ)} 15:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe the average Google user makes a distinction between a 'Google News' link and a regular search link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.11.254 (talk • contribs)

Now that I've remembered my login, perhaps my objection to deletion will carry more weight. This case has received massive national media attention in the past four days, granting it notability above and beyond other missing persons cases, similar to previously nationally discussed cases such as JonBenet Ramsey or Polly Klass. Discolando 16:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely don't deleate. It is getting a lot of coverage. And with time it will only grow. Once they arrest someone I'm sure the trial will be big news too. Wait and see.

Something (or somebody) is not notable simply for something they have done, but about the interest around the person, item, or event. This is very noteworthy, and is recieving wide media interest. Most notably because the incident was captrued on camera. And now that she is dead, the interest will only grow, along with the interest in the topic of security cameras. 75.120.97.221 21:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I say keep the article until her news coverage runs out. I say this because it's still developing, and if she becomes a big story then she is notable, but not yet. If anything, this is a case of missing white woman syndrome in the media.

I'm convinced this is going to continue to be a major case due to the low crime rate in the Overland Park, Olathe suburbs. (I'm from Olathe). The fact is this kind of stuff doesn't happen around here and a lot of people are going to keep this at the front of the news. Also the unique cellphone pings used to locate her body are not usually used and is a noteworhty techinque. The case is definatly worthy of a wiki entry.

Folks, I'm Kelsey's dad. While to some of you she may not be "notable" she was to me. Because of this a not-for-profit charitable organization called the Kelsey Smith Foundation, Inc. has been started. The website is www.kelseysarmy.com. The capital murder trial of the person charged with this crime is scheduled to start Jan 14, 2008. There has been all kinds of coverage about the foundation, the programs it offers and its goals. We are dedicated to helping to prevent these kinds of things from happening to anyone else and have established national contacts to assist our foundation in doing this. Whether the article stays or goes is up to you all, but there is alot more to the story that isn't being included here, particularly about what is happening in the aftermath of her murder. As to questions of what is verifiable or not, please feel free to contact me at the foundation website or by phone at the foundation. If pictures are wanted or needed by anyone, I can provide some if you wish. To those of you who push the missing white woman syndrome, I call that crap. Kelsey got into the news because I spent hours in front of microphones and TV cameras to bring attention to her abduction. As a cop, I knew that media coverage was crucial because most people quickly forget about something like this. Kelsey was in the news because of the efforts of her mother and I, as well as the people of our community, and the nation, who helped out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.185.229.76 (talk) 18:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Death:

KSHB-TV confirmed the body is that of Kelsey Smith, I cannot cite my source as their website is being hammered at the moment. If you need to confirm my edit please listen to there livestream via Windows Media Player: http://mfile.akamai.com/14326/live/reflector:50320.asx?prop=n AcePuppy 20:34, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference link added AcePuppy 20:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Does anybody think this will turn into a Laci Peterson like trial? I'm really itching to edit a wikipedia article from start to finish. Ksharpe126

Not too much like the Laci Peterson case because Scott Peterson is still in prison. But someone has already added this tragic case to Missing white woman syndrome. Edison 23:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since this is a prime example of it, I'd say that was a pretty good call.

MySpace Page

I have added her myspace page as an external link, moderators may delete at their discretion if you feel inappropriate. http://www.myspace.com/bandbaby2007 AcePuppy 18:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How did you find her myspace page

Ksharpe126

How her MySpace was found shouldn't be of concern. AcePuppy 18:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No need to get defensive, it was just a simple question. are you taking over this article? cause you reverted alot of what i wrote. Ksharpe126

I am not 100% sure, but I thought that Wikipedia had some type of "rule" that MySpace pages were "off limits." I remember this coming up on The Apprentice (US Season 6) article, when the MySpace pages of that reality show's contestants were posted there. (JosephASpadaro 20:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

What is Edwin R Hall's myspace page??

It was deleted from MySpace and his wife's MySpace page was made private. (JosephASpadaro 17:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

You can check out this website. It has "stored" copies of Edwin R. Hall's MySpace page and his wife's MySpace page. The website is: http://just-cara.blogspot.com/search/label/Edwin%20Hall (JosephASpadaro 17:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Reformating

Renamed Timeline to overview (a timeline is not nessisarry at this point)
added small changes
suggestions

Should we add a photo of the "suspect" who im pretty sure is the guy they've arrested in her murder. or should we hold off?

Does the Deletion notice still need to be there? this is gonna be notable for a while.

Hold off. If you'd like to create an article about the suspect and link to it, that would be fine.--24.2.18.104 05:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The formatting of this page is bizarre. The section on her death comes after the section on Hall being charge? And why is it written in present tense? This needs a major reworking (assuming it's not deleted, which, by all rights, it should be), but I have neither the time, nor the inclination to do so. - Dancemotron 10:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removing Deletion Notice

This has been sufficiently fleshed out, and since I have read no further requests for deletion, I am removing the deletion notice immediately. 75.61.11.254 18:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are not a moderator you do not have the authority to delete the tag. AcePuppy 19:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Fine, but what possible reason would there be to delete this entry now? It seems pretty silly to keep the tag up. 75.61.11.254 20:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OH im so glad we got the draconian moderator. dont delete my comments, I simply think that we should merge Body found and Death subheadings. im not the guy who deleted the tag. and sign your comments. Ksharpe126

I think we should keep it up for now. We don't know yet how big this story is going to get, or how notable it will end up being in the long term. If it just drops off the radar, it can be deleted, but if we take it down prematurely, it seems to me a lot of work will have gone to waste. So, let's wait and see. I am not a moderator; it's just my opinion. 71.63.119.49 02:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions

move from Kelsey Smith dissappearance to simply Kelsey smith
combine the body found and Death headings in to 1
the guys hearing is over right now, it will be some good updating.
any one else have suggestions?--Ksharpe126 00:30, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the word "disappearance" should be removed from the title. Also, if I can figure out how to do so, I will place a "current events" tag. (JosephASpadaro 20:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Don't delete this page

I don't feel there is any good reason this page should be deleted. NOT covering stories like this one simply because she's a white female is cutting off your nose to spite your face. What if ALL kidnappings were heavily reported? We might return some people safely and eventually, we will reach that point. Refusing to cover a story because you've heard it before about a different white girl or because no one is reporting stories about missing minorities isn't fair and it doesn't do any good. Grow up people, have a heart. This is an interesting article that deserves a place here.

Edwin R. Hall

If anyone wants to start an article on the suspect, Edwin R. Hall, this link may give you a good start. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/08/missing.teen.ap/index.html CNN has come out with details of his possible MySpace page and has given some other details. AcePuppy 15:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Remove the Deletion Notice!

Please - it looks incredibly asinine for the deletion notice to remain on this article, especially since there isn't a similar notice on the Edwin R. Hall page. There is no sane reason for this article to ever be deleted. 75.61.11.254 17:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, but unfortunately it has about 2 more days left in the AfD! AcePuppy 23:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just relax. The discussion is still ongoing, and will be for just a bit longer. Then, an administrator will come in and assess the result of the discussion. Regardless of the outcome, there will no longer be an AfD template on the article. –King Bee ^{(τ • γ)} 13:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's gone now. The result was no consensus. --Core desat 01:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kelsey Smith "Disapperance"

I have changed the name from "Disappearance" to "murder". Mods please change if you feel this is not cause-worthy. Since she is now considered dead and not missing. AcePuppy 15:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No Consensus - Are You Kidding Me?

It was nearly 3 to 1 in favor of keeping. How is that no consensus? If it could override a presidential veto, there's a consensus. Talmage 02:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Over half of the keep arguments referenced other articles or similar cases. Inclusion is not an indicator of notability. --Core desat 04:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So if this page was worthy of deletion, why not delete Laci Peterson? Laci was not notable except for her death and subsequent media attention. This case is a carbon copy, so far. 75.61.11.254 16:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that's the point. The point is there was consensus, unless consensus means "unanimous". I think around 70% is a consensus. Talmage 18:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record - this issue was bothering me, so I went back to the debate and actually (very quickly) counted the votes. Dismissing the one neutral vote, there were 34 Keep and 17 Delete votes. So, that is exactly a 2-to-1 ratio in favor of Keep. Thus, the percentage was 2/3 Keep (67%) and 1/3 Delete (33%). Whether or not that qualifies as "consensus," I am not sure. But I did want to present the raw data. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 23:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Picture

why was it taken down? --Ksharpe126 00:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The picture was uploaded with no source information and no license information. –King Bee ^{(τ • γ)} 11:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

can we get another one up? maybe message someone in the family and ask permission? if no one acts in a few day's ill do it. --Ksharpe126 16:29, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

here is a picture http://bandaides.org/images/KelseySmith.jpg

That's from her high school band's website. I am a drum major in the band, and the web master is okay with wikipedia using the image.

From what I can tell, you can claim fair use on an image of a non-living person since it's considered non replaceable. That's what I've done so far, if anyone wants another picture it's fine. Capt. Phœbus ^(talk) 20:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Murderer

Since Edwin has plead guilty to all charges, I changed the title from suspect to Murderer. I also cited a reference and added information from that reference. If murderer is too harsh, feel free to change it to something else, but he's no longer a suspect. 64.136.192.62 (talk) 20:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Murder of Kelsey Smith. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 02:24, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified (February 2018)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Murder of Kelsey Smith. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071015203546/http://www.amw.com/missing_persons/brief.cfm?id=45587 to http://www.amw.com/missing_persons/brief.cfm?id=45587

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:26, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]