Talk:Murder Most Foul (song)
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[edit]Hello, why is this being redirected to the Bob Dylan page? Song is significant enough to justify it's own article. 2A00:23C5:5082:6101:D8CA:259C:C72C:BF65 (talk) 16:08, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
- Because there weren't enough sources. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:40, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
Table caption
[edit]@Koavf: don't mean to step on any toes. Respectfully asking, what do you mean with "broadcast" performance? I removed the table caption earlier, 'cause it's not common practice in chart tables/sections and not the standard, nor was it an accurate description, but now I'm confused by your terminology. The chart names are pretty self-explanatory, themselves. AshMusique (talk) 18:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, I was in no way offended--I'm glad that you're trying to increase accuracy here. If these aren't all charts that measure sales, they are measuring... what? Please provide a title that you think is accurate. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:45, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf Well, the Rock Songs chart, in addition to download sales, includes streams and radio airplay in its methodology. If we were to include all these formats in the table caption, then it could possibly be confusing to readers who may try to distinguish which chart is based on what. Unlike album chart sections, for instance, single chart sections are a little more complicated with regard to table captions (even though some album charts include streaming, too). Either way, I think the caption should, with all due respect, be removed here, as to not cause confusion, since the single chart templates used in the table all link to each, respective chart anyway - so if a reader really does not know what a chart represents, they can always just click on it if they like, to find out. With that said, as I said before, table captions in chart tables are not the standard. What are your thoughts? I just wanted to have a discussion, before possible removing it again. AshMusique (talk) 19:09, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, As I wrote in my edit summary, do not remove table captions per MOS:TABLECAPTION. It concerns me that you think it's okay to be inaccessible to the blind because it's just common to not care about the blind. All data tables should have captions and summaries. I think you're overthinking this: just provide an accurate caption. What does this table represent? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:12, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf Wait... what? Where did I say that? I wasn't even aware that it could possibly cause accessibility issues for the blind? I saw it now in MOS:TABLECAPTION, but still, that is pretty offensive of you to accuse me of such things, when I clearly had no such intentions. You could have worded your reply differently, with advice, instead of downright accusing me and labeling me as such. You countered my reasoning with an attack on my personality. Absolutely disgusting, especially for an experienced editor like yourself. All data tables don't need to "have" table captions, you cited a how-to guide, not an official Wikipeda guideline. Since you insist, nowhere in songs and/or album articles have I seen table captions been used in the tables of chart sections - I know I've only been here for a short while, but I've worked on and been through plenty song/album articles and any other editor frequenting such will tell you the same. So, once again, they are not needed and do not "have" to be there. You also didn't add an accurate caption, neither the first, nor the second time. Perhaps gain consensus if you still think it should be added, but like I explained, it's not the standard on song articles. I think I gave viable reasons for its removal. AshMusique (talk) 19:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, You did not say that: I assumed that you read my edit summary calling out MOS:TABLECAPTION and then actually clicked on the link to see why table captions shouldn't be removed before you posted this thread. Did you not? I'm not accusing you of anything but stating that this is how it appears. Excuse me if it seemed like I was actually alleging something instead of stating how this comes across: I didn't mean to make a critique of your character. But when you write "all data tables don't need to 'have' table captions", I find it very hard to square with you caring about accessibility guidelines that say the exact opposite. When do you think that captions are not needed? Just whenever they've been neglected? Your reasoning is not "viable" or frankly, humane or sensible. Do you realize that most photos don't have alt text? Should we therefore delete it where it exists? It's mind-boggling to figure out what you mean as you keep on posting. This is a very straightforward issue: please provide a more accurate caption if you think this one is inaccurate. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:48, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf Assumed? You also assumed I didn't care about the blind. If it really did "appear" that way, then why not say so initially? Even the fact that you assumed that, is still offensive. You can't just downright accuse people of such things, what if I had completely read MOS:TABLECAPTION (I actually scrolled past the lead, btw), and what if there was a different reason? I don't expect you to teach me, but if you really cared, you could've explained how beneficial table captions could be, with regard to the visually impaired. What do photos have to do with this discussion? Captions are definitely needed for alt text here on Wiki, to give the best possible description of an image, but this is a completly different instance here. I don't understand why you are deviating, since we are talking about table captions for Charts sections, a pretty self-explanatory section heading. If they truly have been "neglected", then why do 99% of song/album articles not employ them in the charts section? Why is not an official guideline for chart tables? This seems like a personal preference of yours. Once again, it is not a guideline. I already explained to you in my second reply why I don't feel to need to add a description - it would be "mind-boggling" to tou, since you didn't reply to what I said in that reply. AshMusique (talk) 20:16, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, If you had read that and still had some secret reason that you won't explain for "not all tables need captions" then please tell me what it is. Again, the argument, "We have generally failed to include them, therefore we should remove this one" is not very strong. What do photos have to do with this discussion? I made it very clear: your argument is "We usually don't do this, therefore, don't do it" and I wrote, "That's true of a lot of things, e.g. other accessibility necessities" and you wrote back, "Oh yeah, some accessibility guidelines should be followed no matter how common it is to ignore them but others should be ignored because..." I have asked you several times for two things and you keep on giving me discursive, personality-based responses that don't answer them: 1.) What would be an accurate table caption and 2.) When should we ignore accessibility best practices? Since you've personally decided that not all data tables need captions and summaries, you evidently have some secret reason why that you're refusing to share. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:21, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf This is honestly getting tiring now. Look at you making assumptions again and puttting words in my mouth, when I have explicitly explained to you why I don't believe a table caption is of necessity in a chart table. How is it a "secret" reason when I have literally expained it to you in each reply now: Again, it is not needed, since the chart section heading is self-explanatory itself, so are the chart names; table captions in song chart tables can only lead to confusion (especially if editors, like you did, add incorrect captions, which I can see would be another problem of its own), especially with different charts listed in such tables. We haven't failed to include them, they are implemented where necessary and appropriate, and you seem to be the only one adding them to chart tables, as I saw you also did earlier at a page I have watchlisted, Calm (album). So this does seem like a personal preference. I'm not sure why your belief for this is so strong. Again, it is not a guideline, so please kindly stop throwing that out there. AshMusique (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, Please see WP:ACCESSIBLE and please do not remove table captions or otherwise make content on Wikipedia less accessible. If you would like to comment on the ongoing RfC for table captions, feel free. One more time, just because I hate myself: What would be an accurate table caption? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:48, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf You ask for my reasoning multiple times and then ignore it? Seems like I'm right, therefore this is reason enough to remove table captions wherever you add them in chart tables. And I shall ignore your request as you did with my comments. AshMusique (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, Your reasoning is irrelevant and doesn't show comprehension of the fact that the MoS is explicit about including data table captions. It reads, "A data table needs a table caption that succinctly describes what the table is about." and you wrote the exact opposite. Table captions and headings are semantically different, so one does not replace the other. Again, I will refer you to the RfC if you feel like you have something to add there. Do not remove table captions. What would be an accurate table caption in this instance? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:04, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf You ask for my reasoning multiple times and then ignore it? Seems like I'm right, therefore this is reason enough to remove table captions wherever you add them in chart tables. And I shall ignore your request as you did with my comments. AshMusique (talk) 20:59, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, Please see WP:ACCESSIBLE and please do not remove table captions or otherwise make content on Wikipedia less accessible. If you would like to comment on the ongoing RfC for table captions, feel free. One more time, just because I hate myself: What would be an accurate table caption? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:48, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf This is honestly getting tiring now. Look at you making assumptions again and puttting words in my mouth, when I have explicitly explained to you why I don't believe a table caption is of necessity in a chart table. How is it a "secret" reason when I have literally expained it to you in each reply now: Again, it is not needed, since the chart section heading is self-explanatory itself, so are the chart names; table captions in song chart tables can only lead to confusion (especially if editors, like you did, add incorrect captions, which I can see would be another problem of its own), especially with different charts listed in such tables. We haven't failed to include them, they are implemented where necessary and appropriate, and you seem to be the only one adding them to chart tables, as I saw you also did earlier at a page I have watchlisted, Calm (album). So this does seem like a personal preference. I'm not sure why your belief for this is so strong. Again, it is not a guideline, so please kindly stop throwing that out there. AshMusique (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, If you had read that and still had some secret reason that you won't explain for "not all tables need captions" then please tell me what it is. Again, the argument, "We have generally failed to include them, therefore we should remove this one" is not very strong. What do photos have to do with this discussion? I made it very clear: your argument is "We usually don't do this, therefore, don't do it" and I wrote, "That's true of a lot of things, e.g. other accessibility necessities" and you wrote back, "Oh yeah, some accessibility guidelines should be followed no matter how common it is to ignore them but others should be ignored because..." I have asked you several times for two things and you keep on giving me discursive, personality-based responses that don't answer them: 1.) What would be an accurate table caption and 2.) When should we ignore accessibility best practices? Since you've personally decided that not all data tables need captions and summaries, you evidently have some secret reason why that you're refusing to share. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:21, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf Assumed? You also assumed I didn't care about the blind. If it really did "appear" that way, then why not say so initially? Even the fact that you assumed that, is still offensive. You can't just downright accuse people of such things, what if I had completely read MOS:TABLECAPTION (I actually scrolled past the lead, btw), and what if there was a different reason? I don't expect you to teach me, but if you really cared, you could've explained how beneficial table captions could be, with regard to the visually impaired. What do photos have to do with this discussion? Captions are definitely needed for alt text here on Wiki, to give the best possible description of an image, but this is a completly different instance here. I don't understand why you are deviating, since we are talking about table captions for Charts sections, a pretty self-explanatory section heading. If they truly have been "neglected", then why do 99% of song/album articles not employ them in the charts section? Why is not an official guideline for chart tables? This seems like a personal preference of yours. Once again, it is not a guideline. I already explained to you in my second reply why I don't feel to need to add a description - it would be "mind-boggling" to tou, since you didn't reply to what I said in that reply. AshMusique (talk) 20:16, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, You did not say that: I assumed that you read my edit summary calling out MOS:TABLECAPTION and then actually clicked on the link to see why table captions shouldn't be removed before you posted this thread. Did you not? I'm not accusing you of anything but stating that this is how it appears. Excuse me if it seemed like I was actually alleging something instead of stating how this comes across: I didn't mean to make a critique of your character. But when you write "all data tables don't need to 'have' table captions", I find it very hard to square with you caring about accessibility guidelines that say the exact opposite. When do you think that captions are not needed? Just whenever they've been neglected? Your reasoning is not "viable" or frankly, humane or sensible. Do you realize that most photos don't have alt text? Should we therefore delete it where it exists? It's mind-boggling to figure out what you mean as you keep on posting. This is a very straightforward issue: please provide a more accurate caption if you think this one is inaccurate. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:48, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf Wait... what? Where did I say that? I wasn't even aware that it could possibly cause accessibility issues for the blind? I saw it now in MOS:TABLECAPTION, but still, that is pretty offensive of you to accuse me of such things, when I clearly had no such intentions. You could have worded your reply differently, with advice, instead of downright accusing me and labeling me as such. You countered my reasoning with an attack on my personality. Absolutely disgusting, especially for an experienced editor like yourself. All data tables don't need to "have" table captions, you cited a how-to guide, not an official Wikipeda guideline. Since you insist, nowhere in songs and/or album articles have I seen table captions been used in the tables of chart sections - I know I've only been here for a short while, but I've worked on and been through plenty song/album articles and any other editor frequenting such will tell you the same. So, once again, they are not needed and do not "have" to be there. You also didn't add an accurate caption, neither the first, nor the second time. Perhaps gain consensus if you still think it should be added, but like I explained, it's not the standard on song articles. I think I gave viable reasons for its removal. AshMusique (talk) 19:39, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- AshMusique, As I wrote in my edit summary, do not remove table captions per MOS:TABLECAPTION. It concerns me that you think it's okay to be inaccessible to the blind because it's just common to not care about the blind. All data tables should have captions and summaries. I think you're overthinking this: just provide an accurate caption. What does this table represent? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:12, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
- Koavf Well, the Rock Songs chart, in addition to download sales, includes streams and radio airplay in its methodology. If we were to include all these formats in the table caption, then it could possibly be confusing to readers who may try to distinguish which chart is based on what. Unlike album chart sections, for instance, single chart sections are a little more complicated with regard to table captions (even though some album charts include streaming, too). Either way, I think the caption should, with all due respect, be removed here, as to not cause confusion, since the single chart templates used in the table all link to each, respective chart anyway - so if a reader really does not know what a chart represents, they can always just click on it if they like, to find out. With that said, as I said before, table captions in chart tables are not the standard. What are your thoughts? I just wanted to have a discussion, before possible removing it again. AshMusique (talk) 19:09, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
Dylan song “Murder Most Foul”
[edit]Lyric “play down in the boondocks for Terry Malloy” refers to the name of the character Brando played in “On the Waterfront”. You gotta love Dylan! 2600:1003:B859:E591:B9E0:6F28:2CFA:DDFD (talk) 12:57, 13 March 2022 (UTC)