Talk:Murcian Spanish

"Panocha" irrelevant

I believe that it is irrelevant to state that "panocha" is not the same as "panocho"

Murcian Spanish vs. Panocho

It's difficult for me to tell if this article is talking about Murcian Spanish in general, or is discussing the specific dialect called Panocho. I know the two are interrelated. I will try and find out the specifics. --Closeapple 11:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

There are a Murcian Spanish which is a dialect and a Murcian language which is a different language. Panocho is a Murcian language dialect. It´s different. The English wikipedia have to have two articles: on one hand one which speak about Murcian Spanish and on the other hand other article which speak about Murcian language.Franguigo 23:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Who plays violin (talk • contribs) 10:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I am Murcian, and I can say that what people usually refers to as "Panocho" is just another way of Spanish speaking. Panocho is not a separate language, nor it is recognised to be so by any official institution. In fact, if you ask people speaking that concrete variety of the murcian dialect, the majority of them will tell you that they speak Spanish (i.e., Murcian Spanish). Besides, this dialect can be perfectly understood, except for slight differences in the vocabulary, by any Spanish speaker, even those coming from Latin America. On the other hand, it is true that there is a large number of different Murcian dialects, and all of them are closer to the official Spanish than "Panocho". 82.130.13.28 23:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't sign properly. The previous paragraf was written by: ObscurO 23:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

It must be said that Murcian spanish is Spanish as New York English is English.It is an accent,words that are locally understood but it is completely Spanish,and is understood everywhere just as madrid or valladolid spanish is understood. there is an official Spanish controlled by the Royal academy of Spanish however in reality people speak Spanish in local ways just as English is spoken in England or Sydney or Brooklyn.Steve Marcus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.38.17.233 (talk) 20:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Translation progress

The current translation appears to be a machine translation. Also, there is a section or two of the Spanish version of this article that hasn't been translated at all. --Closeapple 11:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Rewritten

Rewritten from pretty horrible translation, and given a copy-edit as per community portal request. Could do with attention from an expert in Spanish lingustics. Tpth 05:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

References

74.0.147.45 has added some statements about the evolution of the language - interesting stuff, but it could do with some referencing. Tpth 00:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Bias

Please take care with the probably excessive positive bias towards the subject of this article Murcianos do not speak spanish badly..they simply say words in their way.all spanish is ok..

.In english for example the british say the gh in ghost but they dont say the gh in the number eight.Do they speak badly? no..they say that in their language the correct way to speak is to copy THEM..when they say gh you say gh..americans dont say the t in twenty..but the british do say the t in twenty. some british say you must say the t in twenty because IT IS THERE..but the british dont say the E in FATE or HATE and it is there..They respond that the rule is NOT to say what is there.the rule is to say what is there only when the british say it..the rule is SAY IT LIKE THE BRITISH...and i respect that..they are protecting their product..And spanish is the same..someone wants to protect their baby their language..murcianos are like americans.each speaks in a different way..each is told they are wrong or low class.but language is not to be studied..it is to be used to express yourself..if you are understood it works..it doesnt come with a warning.

Dialect

I agree with Franguigo. One thing is the Murcian Spanish. Murcian Spanish is the form of speaking Spanish in Región de Murcia, but it's Spanish (like the defference between American and British English) and it's spoken by all the people living in Región de Murcia, but another different thing is the Murcian language (Llengua Murciana), a language very different form spanish and spoken by few people--Who plays violin 10:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, sir, do you have any reference? The Murcian language is not recognised to be so by any official institution, only by local associations. Akhram (talk) 22:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC).

El murciano es reconocido como uno de los dialectos del español desde los principios de ciencia lingüística en España.

Más información GARCÍA SORIANO, J. `Vocabulario del dialecto murciano´, 1932. www.llenguamaere.com --83.53.90.227 (talk) 20:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Error en el nombre del artículo

La denominación para el murciano en el ámbito académico viene siendo la de "dialecto murciano" y en el plano oral viene siendo la de "murciano" y / o la de "panocho"(Ver más en GARCÍA SORIANO, JUSTO: Vocabulario del dialecto murciano. 1932. Madrid.). Sin embargo en este artículo se le denomina "español murciano" ("spanish murcian") la cual no es una denominación apropiada, es de uso muy minoritario, artificial y de aplicación moderna, además de estar empapada de gran peso ideológico.

En Wikipedia en español sí aparece la denominación "dialecto murciano". --83.53.92.11 (talk) 08:50, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

What might be an unusual expression in Spanish might also be the most precise denomination in English. Jotamar (talk) 15:56, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

" Spanish murciano " it is incorrect and slightly secondhand. There is called he "murciano" (and to his variant "inhabitant of Murcia"), both to popular level and to academic level.--84.121.39.5 (talk) 12:11, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Vowel chart

I'm disputing the vowel chart Mr KEBAB has added and Monroy's reliability for the following reasons:

• /i, u/ are not centralized (more reliable references like Maria-Rosa Lloret and Jesús Jiménez point /i, u/ [including their allophones if they still exist/are used generally] are front vowels (note the existence of these lowered variants are disputed, especially the allophone of /u/ - see Gregorio Salvador).
• Open vowels ([æ̞], [ɛ], [ɔ]) are regarded as contextual allophones and dialectal sounds (therefore they should go in parentheses). — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 15:38, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I've changed the wording slightly to make clear that the chart is what those scholars propose; notice that it is objectively true that those are the vowels according to those authors; of course you may add other versions of the chart according to different linguists. --Jotamar (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

It's not necessary to put allophones in parentheses on vowel charts. Usually, this is not done for the sake of simplicity and because vowel charts almost always go hand in hand with written descriptions of vowels which clarify the doubt.

If you have a better (non-OR, as Jotamar said) vowel chart then go ahead and add it. You can even replace mine (as in: replace the file on Commons) if it's that inaccurate (I don't know that). Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:15, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation to both of you. I'm not aware of any sources that use a vowel chart for Murcian, if I find one I'll let you know. — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 09:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I've just seen the website about the "Murcian language" (www.llenguamaere.com, see sistema vocálico), which uses a more ancient [and genuine] version of Murcian, has a better chart that matches the description of more reliable sources. Could this chart be used here? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 10:15, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Mr KEBAB (talk) 13:58, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I took the liberty to replace it myself. Mr KEBAB (talk) 20:56, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

murcian language

people here speak spanish with a local accent.. just like americans speak english with an american accent..cutting letters and silencing som parts of words.the only difference is that murcia is small compared to spain while america is bigger than england. vamo al mercao...i wanna go. 88.21.20.71 (talk) 15:43, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Vitality and social evaluation of certain features

Does anyone have any sources on whether or not certain traits of traditional Murcian Spanish (especially those mentioned in this article and in older sources but not the IPA Illustration) are still commonly heard among younger speakers? Or on how certain traits of Murcian Spanish are evaluated socially? I seem to recall reading some article which mentioned the decline of certain features but an increase in S-weakening over time, but I don't remember what it was called. Erinius (talk) 03:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Good luck with that. Everything that I've read so far about Murcian is incredibly biased. By the way, I've tried to verify the constantly repeated connection to Aragonese, and the most I've found are like half a dozen lexical items. And the -ico diminutive suffix is not Aragonese, that's a stereotype. --Jotamar (talk) 23:53, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Update: I've actually found a good source - "Sociolinguistic aspects of Murcian Spanish" by Hernández-Campoy. It shows certain standard pronunciations increasing over time in radio interviews, with s-dropping and consonant assimilation being the most resistant to standardization. He also cites a study done by himself on casual Murcian speech, finding s-dropping to be categorical.

The features he focuses on have to do with consonant weakening/dropping (ie para as pa, -d- being lost in participles, syllable codas being lost) - he briefly mentions pronunciations like "trempano", "muncho" (which isn't unique to Murcia ofc) and "amoto", but nothing like the preservation of Latin -fl-, -cl-, -ns- or -p t k- that this article (and the Spanish equivalent) mention - which lead me to think those latter features are quite recessive at best. Erinius (talk) 12:44, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Hernández-Campoy is more realistic, except that he insists in claiming that Spanish has standard dialects and non-standard dialects, for unexplained reasons. By the way, based on Hernández-Campoy's description, what difference do you see between Murcian Spanish and Andalusian Spanish? --Jotamar (talk) 22:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

One is spoken in Murcia and the other in Andalusia :p There's no bundle of isoglosses along the Murcian-Andalusian border, Murcian and Andalusian Spanish are moreso geographical/political labels than linguistic ones, I'm in agreement with you there. And the segmental phonology of Murcian and eastern Andalusian Spanish do seem nearly identical to me. One possible difference would be the pronunciation of 's' - which is, according to some sources, apical in most of Murcia but laminal among most Andalusians who distinguish 's' and 'z'. That isogloss, of course, doesn't follow any political border. I watched a few youtube videos involving street interviews with people in Granada and Murcia earlier and I heard both pronunciations in both cities, although the laminal s seemed more common in Granada, so even that doesn't provide a sharp dialect boundary. Erinius (talk) 12:45, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

The preservation of Latin -fl-, -cl-, or -ns- is probably just a number of Catalan loanwords. --Jotamar (talk) 22:59, 8 February 2023 (UTC)