Talk:Mr. Children discography

Discography Tables

In light of everything I have decided to pick up where others decided to leave off and so: Original table along with references to discography listings have been listed. The original table contains more information about said singles and albums then the current one. The use of tables to list an artists discography is common practice amongst wiki writers and have been used, but not limited to the following artists discography: L'Arc~en~Ciel discography, Utada Hikaru discography, Namie Amuro discography, BoA discography, Ai Otsuka discography, L'Arc~en~Ciel discography, Ayumi Hamasaki discography, Kumi Koda discography. While the original point to the current revision was to compact the discography into a more readable state, Japanese artists like Ayumi Hamasaki and L'Arc~en~Ciel have discography’s just as, if not larger, then said artist, and have yet to receive complaints about reducing its size. Unless it becomes a serious issue, there is no need to minimize it. The only thing that needs to be fixed is for the album, compilation and DVD charts is to use the same table layout as the singles are using (which is a minor thing to do).

The one question I have before listing the albums using the same table layout as the singles, is that on the artists website, they label their B-Side compilation as their 14th original album. Do we go by what their official website says? I have also placed reference links for the singles, albums, DVDs, and created a source area which explains the whereabouts of the discography sale numbers, which is also a common way of sourcing sales data (which again can be seen in the other artists discography pages that this paragraph has referenced to). I have also placed a reference to their indie/demo material which was printed in their 1996 book. I wanted to source them as a group, but for whatever reason it wasn’t working so I individually sourced each work.

I will also be adding the correct album title names into the individual album articles (i.e: to their correct capitalization spelling) as that is how the artist and the label intended them to be listed. While trademark guidelines state we should use proper capitalization instead of uppercase, even if the trademark is in uppercase, the individual articles that are up for the few albums should make note of their correct spelling.

For example: Home (which is officially titled HOME) is Mr.Children’s 13th album released on March 14th 2007.

I think we should at least make note of the official spelling, so that the average reader knows at least the correct spelling of the material.

Also while I feel the listing for commercial tie-ups like this to be weird, until all singles have their own article page, I feel they should stay listed so the reader can see them. They have also been sourced/reference too.

Questions/Comments? --24.233.167.16 02:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Also I would like to add that the existence of the Oricon numbers is an important factor as it gives the average reader an insight into the groups popularity in Japan --24.233.167.16 02:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Pointing to other Wikipedia articles is rarely a good thing to do in a content dispute. This is a user-edited encyclopedia and so a lot of pages will have formatting and/or verifiability issues at all time - that includes all the other discography pages you have listed. A few basics:

1. The titles of songs and albums are to subjected to common capitalization rules and title case. Large releases go into italics, small ones into quotes. See WP:MUSTARD.
2. Information that is not immediately verifiable through the most simple means (i.e. browsing Amazon or a real life shop) needs citations, especially if the content to be added signifies the group's popularity. This information needs to remain verifiable, so pay sites are not an option. Use inline citations for each individual bit of information, use the "name" option in references to avoid redundant code. See WP:RS and WP:CITE.

- Cyrus XIII 08:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute. The tables there were allowed to be used by the dozen of editors that have walked through those aritst pages. I even read their discussion pages for both the artist and the discography part, and NO ONE has had an issue or a problem with the way they are listed. Why are you making this so difficult? Even non Japanese aritsts like the Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, etc... use tables, so this is a common thing to do. You're making it impossible for any work to be done here unless it is to your standards and not in the best interest of the reader. Also according to wiki standards if disputes (such as this) are being made you are NOT suppose to be using the revert method during that time. As this has turned into a discussion you weren't allow to revert the page back to your form until this issue was settled. I can see now why the other user stopped trying to work on Mr.Children's wiki. --24.233.167.16 11:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Also while Oricon does charge for the sales number, I also led readers to TWO non-paying websites that they could also find the information from. As for citing, how am I suppose to cite a discography? I referenced each work to the proper book. --24.233.167.16 11:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi there. I came after a request from an ip. Checking the article, Cyrus XIII is right. The information must be verified. You can convert the list into tables, but you need to give a source for that information. How do you know that Replay sold 88,330 copies? That number must have appeared somewhere, in a magazine, web page, somewhere. You need to point out where. In example, if you bought the magazine and a determined page had that information, use the {{cite book}} template to reference that. If it appeared in a specific page, use the {{cite web}} one. -- ReyBrujo 18:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Well thanks for the okay on the tables. I really like them so I'm glad someone else agrees I can use them... and as for referencing. Mr.Children don't like to talk about their sales. The only way people even know how much they sale is because of ORICON. Soundscan, which is another version of ORICON, also has a data sales system, but they inflat the numbers to where things sold a LOT more then they actually did. And while I can use their numbers, that's lying to people because Mr.Children's HOME album hasn't sold 1.5 million copies like Soundscan has stated it did. However that being said, I was able to find some of their data sales by pleading with people to help me search Oricon and so, just so those who read this know, I will be refering to these tables (and some other ones) and thus will be re-instating both the table and the sales data soon. However I'm not really sure how to do a group reference (and the cite reference didn't show how), so I'm going to reference each number individually. If it's wrong, please fix it, but don't delete it. Also ORICON has always pubicly shown the first week sales only (which you can even verify by visiting their website), so I will leave them up too.

http://www.oricon.co.jp/news/rankmusic/43071/, http://www.oricon.co.jp/news/music/21151/, http://www.oricon.co.jp/news/music/41005/

On a side note, and this is something that's now bothering me, but shouldn't the numbers from wiki's like Amuro Namie and Hamasaki Ayumi be removed too? Amuro's references ORICON's paid subscription and did the same thing I did, which was lead people to two non-paying websites. And Hamasaki's reference links don't match up for the most part with what's posted, and they even link to Yama's fan page that lists his reporting of the numbers... honestly I'm not trying to cause a problem, but I find it unfair (and really confusing) that artists such as these can get away with things like these, and even have multiple editors view it and edit it, and yet no one does anything, and even some of them are promoted to a higher wiki grade level. Do you know what I mean? It's just fustrating that out of all the wiki's to be highly critical about, it happens to be Mr.Children's. I and other people reference these other artists wiki's for ideas and examples on how layout and create our favorite artist wiki's, and so when the Mr.Children wiki is being told it needs reliable references and then it's contents deleted, when wiki's like Hamasaki Ayumi's references loads of fan pages, is like I said unfair and confusing. Please note that I am NOT trying to place blame, I'm just trying to explain that it's heartbreaking artists that are more famous to English speaking fans and have far more editors and contributors can do these things. I suppose I should bring this up in their wiki's, but even doing so, I doubt their fans would care.... I suppose Mr.Children fans should take this as a compliment that people really really want Mr.Children's wiki to be 100% verifiable though. --24.233.167.16 23:25, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your side note, yes, the numbers should be either removed, or a tag about lack of reference should be used. I have contacted many anonymous adding the information there asking for them to add a reference for the numbers, but they never do so, many times because they are different anonymous. I always wonder where they get the information, but it may be possible that those guys just know Japanese, and since my Japanese is not very good (and their English is so-so as well), we never manage to get those references. -- ReyBrujo 03:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)