Talk:Motor coach (rail)

Proposed merger of Rail motor coach with Railcar and Multiple unit

The Rail motor coach page is confusingly named, unreferenced, linked with very few other pages, and overlaps the subject matter of two other pages, with which it should be merged.

Native speakers of English use the expression "motor coach" to refer to road vehicles, not rail vehicles. So do the standard English-French and English-German dictionaries. (Eg The Collins English-French dictionary translates "motor coach" into "car", and its English-German equivalent translates the same expression into "Autobus"; in the opposite direction, Collins translates both "automotrice" and "Triebwagen" into English as "railcar".)

Where the German word "Triebwagen" is used to mean "Triebzug", then another appropriate translation into English is "multiple unit".

It follows that the contents of the Rail motor coach article should be merged into Railcar and/or Multiple unit, and the article itself should be deleted (or perhaps redirected).

Another reason why that should be done is that the Wikipedia pages on railway motive power (such as Railcar and/or Multiple unit) aim to cover the whole world, and therefore should include material on railcars/multiple units manufactured and used mainly or solely on the European continent. It is not appropriate to put such material into a separate article under a different and confusing name.

As a final comment, and as noted by some dictionaries, the expression "motor coach" is also generally regarded by native English speakers as "dated" and is seldom used (except in North America, where the word "coach" is often used as an abbreviation of the expression "coach class" (ie economy class), and therefore the use of the expression "motor coach" prevents ambiguity and resulting confusion). That is another reason to merge and delete (or redirect) the Rail motor coach article.

Bahnfrend (talk) 06:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Pro I agree that it is much easier to combine multiple units, motor coaches and railcars in the same article, because the use of these words differs between the continents and the translations of these words don't fit 1:1. I have proposed the same for Wikimedia Commons categories. A German "Triebwagen" can stand for all three but in French French a distinction between "autorail" and automotrice" is made (but not necessarily the same in Swiss French and Belgian French). There are even more English words, like Motor Luggage Van or just Motor if speaking of the tractive unit of an EMU. But I don't agree that all native speakers of English use the expression motor coach to refer to a road vehicle. While this is true for American and possibly Australian people, if have asked many British rail fans and they told me that the expression refers to a rail vehicle. Finally, in the United Kingdom and Ireland rail passenger cars are refered to as "coaching stock", see Category:Coaching stock.-- Gürbetaler (talk) 18:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Pro I agree strongly that Rail motor coach should be merged (with a re-direct) into Railcar: 1) because of the clear overlap in reference; and 2) because Railcar itself would benefit, in my view, from a tidy-up in any case, and this might be best done as part of a merger. A subsequent merger of a new Railcar (also covering rail motor coach) article would need to be done with care, however, as all railcars/rail motor coaches are not necessarily capable of multiple-unit operation. I do agree, though, with the points made above that there needs be some central "clearing-house" explanation of all the various terms and what they mean where. -- Picapica (talk) 10:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

P.S. Gürbetaler, the fact that British rail fans say that the expression "motor coach" refers to a rail vehicle only tells you what British rail fans say! They are correct in that it does have this sense in technical railway-speak; however, I believe that the average British "man in the street" asked what a "motor coach" was would describe a road vehicle -- and I believe we need to ensure we deal with general, as well as technical, usage here. -- Picapica (talk) 11:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that when British rail fans refer to "motor coach" as a rail vehicle, they are usually, if not always, referring to a powered carriage forming part of a multiple unit train, with a mix of powered and non powered carriages (or luggage vans). For example, the Wikipedia article about the Grayrigg derailment describes the first carriage of the British Rail Class 390 multiple unit train involved in that derailment as a "driving motor coach". I admit that there are at least some web pages on which the expression "motor coach" is used to mean "railcar". See, eg, The Ivatt GNR Rail Motor Coaches and The Rail-cars of France. (On the latter web page, "motor coach" is used somewhat indiscriminately to refer to both "railcar", and "powered carriage in a two car multiple unit train".) But these web pages describe rail vehicles from the 1920s and 1930s, not present day rolling stock. Anyway, the consensus appears to be that something needs to be done. I will therefore have a go at doing something in the near future. Bahnfrend (talk) 15:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

You say that motor coach in Britain would always be a vehicle out of a multiple unit or then pre-WW II rolling stock. That's absolutely correct. There is nothing else that this term could describe~, in Britain! But when these railfans are on holidays, here in Switzerland, they use the word for our Triebwagen. A railcar is rather a motorized vehicle, traveling alone or with mates of the same class. I have had many discussions on newsgroups about these terms and I still think there is a difference between the members of the trilogy of words railcar – motor coach – multiple unit. And there is no exact match to the German trilogy Schienenbus – Triebwagen – Triebzug. And then, there is still the motor luggage van...-- Gürbetaler (talk) 21:12, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Pro Should be merged as a section into Railcar—Moebiusuibeom-en (talk) 04:52, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Pro I think it's about time we took some action on this proposal! To which the obvious retort – given the lack of any outright opposition – is, I suppose: "Well then, what are you waiting for, P.?" I still tend to be of the view that we would probably be best aiming for two articles (each with cross-references, of course), dealing with: A. (Diesel and electric) multiple units; and B. Railcars / "Rail motor coaches". I will see what I can come up with – hopefully in less than 6–7 years! -- Picapica (talk) 00:11, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

Hold fire. I need to check my references, but I don't think these terms are synonymous. Bermicourt (talk) 13:07, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Motor coach an unusual term?

A Swiss motor coach pulling four coaches: not an EMU and not a railcar

It has been said in different places that motor coach would be a rarely used if not wrong term for a motorized rail vehicle. However, I can't find another term describing a powerful, heavy, motorized passenger car, not fitted for multiple unit use. A railacar is always referred to as being lightweight, see the article about Railcars, and can thus not be used for this category of vehicles. In fact I don't know of such vehicles in English speaking countries.-- Gürbetaler (talk) 15:25, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Definitions

I've tracked down the following definitions:

• Motor Coach/Car:
  • "A vehicle within a multiple unit train equipped with powered axles and providing tractive effort to the train. An un-powered vehicle is a trailer."
  • "A railway car/coach with passenger accommodation but also containing a driving cab and power unit (usually electric when this term is employed) hauling trailers."
• Power Car:
  • "Part of a multiple unit train or permanently coupled train formation (such as a High Speed Train) that provides tractive effort for the train, but has no seating for passengers."
  • "Traction unit (in effect a loco) normally forming an integral part of a train set, as in HST, TGV and Eurostar."
• Railcar:
  • "A single car diesel multiple unit (DMU) normally used on rural lines."
  • "A passenger-carrying car, running singly or with others, propelled by an integral light steam engine, a petrol or diesel engine, or by electric traction."
• Multiple Unit/Multiple Unit Train:
  • "A train consisting of one or more vehicles (semi-permanently coupled together) with a driving cab at both ends. Some or all the vehicles may be equipped with powered axles." It goes on to list 5 main variants: DEMUs, DHMUs, DMMUs, DMUs and EMUs.
  • "An electric (emu) or diesel-electric powered (dmu or demu) train in which the motive power is distributed over a number of car axles instead of being concentrated in a loco or driving car All motors can be controlled by the driver at the front of the train through a master controller connected to all equipments, irrespective of their location. Since the number of motored units can be varied and placed in any desired position in a train and trains can be driven from either end without reversal, mu formations are very flexible in use".
• Trailer:
  • "Any vehicle in a multiple unit train that does not have any powered axles."
  • "Any passenger vehicle without a power unit of its own, usually those in dmu or emu sets. Also any non-powered unit hauled by a tramcar or dummy."

From the above, motor cars, power cars and trailers are elements of a multiple unit train and could either be sections within the multiple unit article or separate articles. A railcar is usually a single unit that does not form part of a set and merits its own article. Bermicourt (talk) 20:17, 27 November 2017 (UTC)