Talk:Moshe Chaim Luzzatto

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Untitled

I think the category of Italkim should be removed since Luzatto is not an old-Italian Jewish family but of more recent German origin.

It seems to me that some sections of this article are inaccurate. Specifically, I was under the impression that he was not forced out of Padua (rather left of his own accord), and was told he could continue teaching mysticism once he reached the age of 40, on condition he lived in Israel (this being the reason for his moving there). This is based on the short biography at the beginning of the book The Way of God, Transl. Aryeh Kaplan, Feldheim 1997. ISBN 0-87306-769-X. Perhaps this needs revising? 87.80.37.31 (talk) 20:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

re: citation

This article needs citation and clarification So far it is presenting views that are not mainstream and are controversial: Such as the Ramchal naming someone as Messiah ben Dovid....

This is suspect.

13:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell the information was lifted straight out of an article written by a female Conservative "rabbi" named Scheinerman. She writes "Luzzatto believed himself to be a reincarnation of Moses and ascribed to himself the role of redeeming Israel. Another member of the group, Moses David Valle, seemed to have thought of himself as the Messiah, son of David, while yet another member took on the role of Serayah, who was to be the commander of Israel's army in the messianic era." The essay can be found here: http://scheinerman.net/judaism/personalities/luzzatto.html

7 May 2018: Scheinerman's essay is now on http://scheinerman.net/judaism/People/luzzatto.html. Mcljlm (talk) 23:05, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

20:08, 27 June 2008

Sounds like a lot of make-believe to me. A very poorly researched article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.19.244.14 (talk) 17:31, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

3 Sept 2010 While the article has very few citations, it is basically correct. Reliable sources, mostly in Hebrew, say the same. I am gathering material to expand the article with verifiable citations. Ms444

The GR"A

the article says that R Israel Salanter caused his works to be mainstream, but i heard that the GR"A kept a copy of mesilat yesharim in his tallit bag, and that he made it more popular. Can anyone source that? also, I've heard that he wrote plays for a living. can anybody source that? 129.98.209.57 (talk) 04:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tziyun of the Ramhal in Tiberias, ir hakodesh ttbb"a, Israel.

This is what the "explanation" of the tombstone picture currently reads. This is certainly not good style for an encyclopedia: please translate this line into words which are understandable for the average reader. --BjKa (talk) 10:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of scholarly sources, Ultra-Orthodox bias

This is a very poorly written and referenced article, written to betray an ultra-Orthodox and/or Kabbalistic bias. And the editors of this article have clearly censored (in factm come close to flat out lied about) details about Moshe Chaim that they apparently consider embarassing. In order for this to become a reliable article, the data needs to come from peer-reviewed, respected sources, such as the Encyclopaedia Judaica, I present this excerpt from the EJ:

Dan, Joseph, and Joelle Hansel. "Luzzatto, Moses Ḥayyim." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Ed. Michael Berenbaum and Fred Skolnik. 2nd ed. Vol. 13. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2007. 281-286. Gale Virtual Reference Library. Web. 2 June 2015.

Luzzatto's Messianic Doctrine: When Luzzatto formulated his messianic doctrine, the circle around him began actively to seek messianic redemption. The first "code" of the group, which has survived (signed by the members in 1731), includes ten laws, dealing with the methods of study, the relationship between the members and Luzzatto, and a declaration of the group's aim: "That this study [or speculation] will not be regarded as a private tikkun of the members nor will it be atonement for personal sins, but its only kavvanah will be wholly dedicated to the tikkun of the holy Shekhinah and all of Israel." Seven members had signed this "code," including Jekuthiel Gordon. Other members joined later, among them Luzzatto's brother and Moses David *Valle , who became one of the group's leaders. He was the writer of the group, author of a voluminous commentary on the Bible, which is extant in a few manuscripts. The members of this group believed that the process of redemption had already begun, and that it was going to reach its culmination in a few years. Their saintly way of life and kabbalistic speculations were intended to facilitate this process. Moreover, they were sure that they, personally, had an important part to play in the process.

The writings of Moses David Valle seem to hint that Valle saw himself as the Messiah, son of David. Jekuthiel assumed the role of Serayah of the tribe of Dan, who was to be the commander of Israel's army in the messianic era. Other messianic roles were distributed among the other members. Luzzatto's own role becomes clear from a unique document preserved in his own handwriting – his commentary on his own ketubbah, which he wrote at the time of his marriage. This document proves that Luzzatto understood his marriage to signify a mystical event in the heavenly worlds, the union between Moses and Zipporah (which happened to be the name of his wife), who represent the elements of masculinity and femininity in the divine realm. The earthly marriage ceremony he understood as only a symbol of the redemption of the Shekhinah and her union with her divine husband. It is evident, therefore, that Luzzatto saw himself as a reincarnation of Moses, the man who rescued his people from the exile in Egypt and would redeem them from this last galut as well.

Luzzatto's opponents understood the messianic nature of his circle, and were afraid of the Shabbatean overtones which such activity might contain. The problem of whether Luzzatto's ideas and activities can be called "Shabbatean" or not is unsolved. Luzzatto himself admitted to being influenced by the writings of *Shabbetai Ẓevi 's "prophet," *Nathan of Gaza . However, he maintained that the good element in them should be separated from the heretical context. In some of Luzzatto's kabbalistic ideas, elements of Shabbatean influence can be found, for he maintained that the Messiah must descend to the realm of Satan, the Shabbatean explanation for their Messiah's conversion. However, Luzzatto insisted that this should not involve the Messiah's earthly body; it should be a spiritual experience only, involving no sin. Luzzatto was also moderately inclined toward the Shabbatean idea that a sin might serve a holy purpose, but he always made radical changes in the Shabbatean ideas which avoided their heretical and antinomian nature.

RK (talk) 01:45, 3 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also see: The Pursuit of Heresy: Rabbi Moses Hagiz and the Sabbatian Controversies, By Elisheva Carlebach

Needs work

The article is poorly written and lacks citations. Additionally, much of it betrays a religious Haredi POV, such as the mentions of Luzzato studying with the Maggid (with no clarification as to whether the Maggid was a claimed supernatural being, claimed but unconfirmed human sage or an actual historical figure) and the alternating between the names RaMChaL and Luzzatto..

I'd expect a more serious article about Luzzatto, as he was an important figure in Jewish intellectual history and his writings are still central to Haredi theology. 01:58, 6 January 2016 (UTC)67.87.160.55 (talk)

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