Talk:Morihei Ueshiba/GA1
GA Review
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Reviewer: Shudde (talk · contribs) 11:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Hey. I've decided to review this article. I will hopefully start the review shortly, but before I do this is how I normally go about it: I'll usually read through the article starting immediately after the lead, and make comments as I go. These comments do not necessarily relate directly to the Good article criteria, but should in most cases. I believe that if I'm going to review an article, I may as well give any feedback I can, regardless of whether it relates to meeting the GA criteria. I read the lead last. Once I've finished reading through, I normally check the references and images (although sometimes I check these as I go). It's here I'll normally spotcheck the references (to see that they verify the relevant statement) and also checking to close-paraphrasing. If I find any problems with close paraphrasing I'll fail the article immediately – I'm not comfortable passing an article if there is a chance it contains a copyright violation. I see this as a collaborative process, so if you have any questions feel free to ask, and I'll make sure that I check back regularly. -- Shudde talk 11:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
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Okay think I'm done for today. Generally not too bad. Found that some things moved around a little bit, and I understood previous sections I had read only after I had read further along in the article. On the other hand some sections had prose that was very very nice to read, Early years in particular was quite impressive. I'll come back in a day or two and check the lead, references and images. Hopefully my comments above are helpful, but please understand this is a subject I'm not very familiar with – on the other hand, this may be more helpful if you're ever thinking of Featured status! Any questions or problems feel free to ping me. Cheers. -- Shudde talk 12:36, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Sorry to have taken so long but I'm back to finish the review. I'll add any further comments below:
In the earlier years of his teaching, from the 1920s to the mid-1930s, Ueshiba taught the Daitō-ryū aiki-jūjutsu system he had earned a license in from Takeda Sokaku." -- I would merge these paragraphs. The second paragraph seems to flow directly from the last sentence of the first. Done
I've still got to check the images and footnotes. I know I've added a lot of comments on the Development of aikido section but it does read much better than when I first went through it. I'll get onto the rest of it soon. Sorry for the delay in returning to the review. -- Shudde talk 08:18, 4 August 2014 (UTC) |
- Images
- File:Onisaburo Deguchi 2.jpg -- is there a non-dead link to the source? Requires a US copyright tag, and may need to be moved from commons to en.wiki if it's not PD in the US
- File:Morihei-Ueshiba.jpg -- is there a more information on the source? Same situation above re US copyright.
- File:Takeda Sokaku.jpg -- no author information. Source is dead, would be good if a live link could be found. Tag could be wrong, we don't have any author information. No US tag.
- I'm taking some advice with regards to the images; I'll try and deal with these once I've considered the options. Yunshui 雲水 12:37, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
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I'll just pick some random footnotes and check they verify the statement(s) they're from, and that there is no close-paraphrasing. There are 36, so I'll take 9 at random.
A couple of other comments (haven't checked these for close-paraphrasing or accuracy), but [18], [22], [33], [34], [36] could use more detailed descriptions as per the other footnotes you have here.
Ok think I'm done! I'll come back and check everything soon. If you have any questions, or need clarification on anything, please feel free to ping me. Cheers. -- Shudde talk 11:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC) |
- Nearly done!
@Yunshui: Regarding the images, I'm certainly not an expert in copyright law etc. But from what I know, commons can only host images that are PD in the US -- so that definitely needs to be looked at and clarified. Those other concerns also need to be addressed as well. I'll add a note to the WT:GAN page and see if we can get someone else to us know. I don't want to pass the article with any image problems, and don't want it to sit on hold for no reason either! Once it's sorted though. It'll be a pass.
The following are only minor things that I will AGF you'll address the best you can. So them being here does not stand in the way of a pass, but like I said, I'll AGF (because they're minor) that you can decide whether they should be addressed or not.
- Still not sure what "a more linear approach to technique" means? Done, well, excised, actually. I assume that whoever inserted it was trying to show a distinction between the direct, thrusting and entering movements of Daito-ryu and the softer, circular movements of modern aikido, but since I can't supply a good source for that distinction, I think it's best left out.
- "These methods are preserved in the teachings of his early students" -- so thinking about this again, I think the reason I found this confusing was that are Ueshiba's early teachings not also still around (somewhere), so maybe "These methods are also preserved in the teachings of his early students" -- also could elaborate on teachings (as they are all dead) -- do you mean teaching manuals, manuscripts etc? Anyway will leave this with you. Done reworded this bit.
- I'm not actually sure [32] is a reliable source. But I'll let you decide. You should probably change the formatting however. Not sure you've formatted it the most appropriate way. What about Teo, Derrick. "Students of O'Sensei – Morihei Ueshiba (1883 – 1969)". Derrick's Den. Archived from the original on 16 May 2006.
- I'm not sure about it either. I'll see whether I can come up with something more reliable.
- Some of the ref's could use ISBNs if they exist [20], [25]? And accessdates [21]?
- Regarding adding something on students in the lead, I was not thinking a precise number, rather something similar to the statement "Over the years, Ueshiba trained a large number of students, many of whom have grown into great teachers in their own right." that is already in the article.
- Are you happy with all the information in the Students table? A lot of it is not directly referenced.
- No, not really. It's a bit of a cruftmagnet; I've cleaned it out a couple of times, I think. I'm now slowly going through and sourcing each line individually.
That's it. I'm really sorry that the review has taken so long, especially considering you have addressed my comments so promptly. I hope my review wasn't overly picky or pedantic. My style is usually one of over-caution when reviewing, I try to be as careful as I can. I really enjoyed the read, he is an interesting fellow, and it was nice to learn about something I don't know anything about. I think the article reads well now, and the Development of aikido section is relatively easy for a novice like me to understand! You should be proud of the article. Hopefully it'll be a pass soon! -- Shudde talk 10:00, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- No need to apologise - I'd rather get a nicely crafted article at the end of the process, especially since this is one that I'm doing up, rather than creating from scratch (which is much my preferred way of getting GAs). I'll take another pass at the refs - the images are a bit of a sticking point, though. I'm pretty sure the Takeda one is going to be okay, but I have a strong feeling the other two may be contentious. The image of Ueshiba himself is, I think one that was released into the public domain by the Aikikai for use in dojos around the world, but I'm having trouble confirming that. Other people's images are a pain; I might end up just uploading some new pictures myself, with correct licences.
- Incidentally I'm away all next week - anything that isn't done by the weekend isn't going to get done until at least the 18th, just so you're aware. Cheers, Yunshui 雲水 10:24, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- So with the first image listed above, it appears that the website likely no longer hosts it, although the Internet Archive is able to display a cache of the page: here, showing that the photograph is dated to 1930 and thus should be PD. For the second image, the source doesn't list the age of the image or any other indication that it's PD. For the third image, the website is accessible on the Internet archive (here), but there is no indication that the photos are old enough to be in the public domain. So it appears that unless more information is found, there's no evidence that either the second or third photographs should be PD.--ɱ (talk) 10:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Ɱ: Thanks for the feedback, but what about being PD in the US? As these images are almost certainly all post-1923? If they are PD in Japan, but not the US, should they be moved to en-wiki from commons? -- Shudde talk 10:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Bit of an edit conflict, was going to specify that Japanese PD images that are older than 1996 should be PD in the US via Template:PD-1996; do use both licenses.--ɱ (talk) 10:50, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- @Ɱ: Thanks for the feedback, but what about being PD in the US? As these images are almost certainly all post-1923? If they are PD in Japan, but not the US, should they be moved to en-wiki from commons? -- Shudde talk 10:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- So with the first image listed above, it appears that the website likely no longer hosts it, although the Internet Archive is able to display a cache of the page: here, showing that the photograph is dated to 1930 and thus should be PD. For the second image, the source doesn't list the age of the image or any other indication that it's PD. For the third image, the website is accessible on the Internet archive (here), but there is no indication that the photos are old enough to be in the public domain. So it appears that unless more information is found, there's no evidence that either the second or third photographs should be PD.--ɱ (talk) 10:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Sweet. That simplifies things a little. -- Shudde talk 10:53, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- File:Takeda Sokaku.jpg should be PD in Japan, as Takeda Sokaku died in 1943, so can't be from later than that. -- Shudde talk 10:55, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Wax figures. (Nah, that photo's fine, just the second one then is problematic; but you'd still need the US 1996 tag on all of them)--ɱ (talk) 11:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ɱ, you have my undying gratitude. I've updated the images with
{{PD-URAA}}
and updated the sources for all three as well (the Takeda one I've re-sourced to a more stable site). Yunshui 雲水 12:09, 6 August 2014 (UTC)- Actually, scratch that for the second one. I assumed the uploader was correct in their claim that the photo was from 1930, but after a few moments thought - there's no way Ueshiba looked like that when he was in his 30s, given that he looked like this in 1942. The picture we've got must date to the early sixties. Yunshui 雲水 12:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Rather annoyingly from a PD point of view, it appears to have been taken in 1957. Yunshui 雲水 12:22, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, scratch that for the second one. I assumed the uploader was correct in their claim that the photo was from 1930, but after a few moments thought - there's no way Ueshiba looked like that when he was in his 30s, given that he looked like this in 1942. The picture we've got must date to the early sixties. Yunshui 雲水 12:15, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Ɱ, you have my undying gratitude. I've updated the images with
- Wax figures. (Nah, that photo's fine, just the second one then is problematic; but you'd still need the US 1996 tag on all of them)--ɱ (talk) 11:25, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- File:Takeda Sokaku.jpg should be PD in Japan, as Takeda Sokaku died in 1943, so can't be from later than that. -- Shudde talk 10:55, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I've uploaded this → as a possible alternative - low quality, and of a much younger man, but indisputably old enough to be public domain. Any thoughts? Yunshui 雲水 12:34, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- That one appears to be valid. Another possibility is this clearer photograph. Also, to be clear, File:Takeda Sokaku.jpg should state what you mention about his death making the photo pre-1943. And you plan to delete File:Morihei-Ueshiba.jpg then?--ɱ (talk) 13:05, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's even better; uploaded as File:Morihei Ueshiba Ayabe 1921.jpg. I'm really not sure about the 1957 photo - I'm certain I read/heard somewhere that it was one of the photos made freely available for dojo around the world to use on their kamiza, but I've looked all over for evidence and can't find any proof. It seems odd to me to use the 1921 photo, since any aikidoka's natural mental image of Ueshiba is of his beardy-wizard phase - but then again, I rather like the idea of the infobox showing a different side to him. I'll put it in and see whether anyone objects (I suspect they will...). Yunshui 雲水 13:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, it does seem that nearly every photo of him was taken during the last years of his life. The 1921 one will have to do for now, and should be acceptable for the GA review.--ɱ (talk) 14:03, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's even better; uploaded as File:Morihei Ueshiba Ayabe 1921.jpg. I'm really not sure about the 1957 photo - I'm certain I read/heard somewhere that it was one of the photos made freely available for dojo around the world to use on their kamiza, but I've looked all over for evidence and can't find any proof. It seems odd to me to use the 1921 photo, since any aikidoka's natural mental image of Ueshiba is of his beardy-wizard phase - but then again, I rather like the idea of the infobox showing a different side to him. I'll put it in and see whether anyone objects (I suspect they will...). Yunshui 雲水 13:21, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Sweet. Images look all good. Will pass ASAP. -- Shudde talk 08:52, 7 August 2014 (UTC)