Talk:Mordechai Dovid Unger

Reason for latest change

To an outside friend of Bobov for quite some years, the tone of this discussion is truly saddening. Yaakov G. Stephengeis (talk) 20:51, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

69.112.63.43 It is a fact that everyone can see with their own eyes that R' M"D has the minority of Bobov. It is also undisputed by anyone that R' B"Z is the Bobover Rebbe, while it is disputed if R' M"D is also Bobover Rebbe or not. It is also very clear by now for those who know a little what's going on in Beis Din that he won't be granted the name Bobov alone. The question is only whether Beis Din will let him call himself bobov with another name added to it or he will have to find himself a different name other than Bobov (most probably he will have to call himself something else other than Bobov). Shlome

69.112.63.43 Your one-sided opinion does not yet make a fact. There is a mentchlicher way to proceed here. Issac 00:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

What makes it one sided that RMD has the minority? Let me ask you did you for yourself ever go into both places to see the difference in the amount of people??? If not what are you talking about, Yes to me thats a fact because any person in the world no matter who could go to both places & see it with their own eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK!!!!!!!! & when you write it the way you do, that to me is ONE SIDED! And don't you agree that everyone considers RBZ definiatly as Bobover Rebbe is that true? And the issue is whether RMD is or not??????? And who are you to decide what is considered the mentchlicher way? To me & I'm sure to a lot of people here agree with me that I'm writing the mentchlicher way, how you call it. I'm sick & tired of your one sided POV, because you decided that it's all even, where everybody knows it's not by far. So go kiss up with R' Unger & stop pushing your own point of you. Shlome

Ok, listen. First, Gut Voch, second, Rebbe Ben Zion Aryeh Lebish Shlit"a is the Rebbe of Bobov. His half Brother, Reb Naftulche Halberstam TZVK"L, Gave him the title of Rov Hatzoir while he was the rebbe. Thus telling us that Ben Zion aryeh Leibish would be the next rebbe. If I am correct, Bobov is the only chasidus that has that title. Ruv Mordche Duvid is the Rov for The 45th street shul. He is not the Rebbe of Bobov. Neither is R' Shia Rubin --Shaul avrom 00:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Reb Shaul Avrom. I would like to straighten out some misconceptions. I don't know if it’s a good idea as these things are before the Bais Din & it wouldn't make a difference what we think & surely not for Wikipedia; as Wikipedia doesn't decide things just gives an Encyclopedic account of it.

Do you really think that half of Bobov are stupid; and they don't know what you know? Think about it!

If you are a Bobover Chosid, then whatever I'm going to say won't make a difference (don't bother me with the facts; I've already made up my mind). But if you're not a Bobover, but open minded; then there is a chance that you'll realize the misperceptions. Either way my comments are only meant to refute any misconceptions in order to reach equilibrium in order to keep the articles as neutral point of view NPOV.

a) A significant amount of Bobov consider Reb Mordche Duvid as the Bobover Rebbe

b) A significant amount of Bobov consider Reb Yehoshia Rubin as the Bobover Ruv

c) A significant amount of Bobov consider Reb Ben Zion as the Bobover Rebbe/Ruv

d) Some Bobover chasidim haven’t decided yet or don't care who is the Bobobver Rebbe.

e) Some Bobover Chasidim don't care who is the Bobover Rebbe but will stay with whoever gets the forty eight street Bais Midresh.

f) A lot of Bobover chasidim from both sides say that lema'an hasholem (for the sake of peace) let there be two Bobover Rebbes.

g) The last Bobover Rebbe; Reb Naftoli Zvi; didn't give him the title, the way you described it; it was the other way around; Reb Ben Zion asked for that title; and the Rebbe ZT'L being the good man that he was; knowing full well what Reb Ben Zion has in mind; asked what does that title entertain? When he was told that he also wants "a" title; said zol er oich huben "ah" titel (let him also have "a" title); but in no way shape or form, did he say or insinuate that Reb Ben Zion will be his memaleh mokem (successor). As a matter of fact; see the complete droshe (speech) of the Rosh Hakohol (Lay President) of Bobov; Rabbi Moshe Meir Einhorn; in which he clearly declared that we are crowning Reb Naftali Zvi as the Bobover Rebbe; but when it came to make the next announcement he merely said that we are notifying that Harav hatzoir Reb Ben Zion; stopping in mid sentence; with no crowning; not even declaring him as the Rav hatzair but merely repeating the title that "others" have decided to call him. Do you think that these words or lack of words were by accident? Those in Bobov know that he didn't want to say, what some would have liked to hear; so he chose the vaguest possible words to calm the storm that was brewing at that time.

Now more importantly Reb Ben Zion resented the fact that he wasn't accorded the honors and wasn't treated as a Rav hatzoir the way he intended it to be (and the way he wanted you to see it); but instead he was treated only like a son of the previous Rebbe; Don't forget, respect has to be earned; respect cannot be demanded. Now on the other hand the Chasidim of the Bobover Rebbe Reb Naftoli; resented the fact that all those who mocked & spoke ill of the Rebbe in his own Bais Medrash found refuge with Reb Ben Zion; and considered this insubordination by Reb Ben Zion and his people as open mutiny. The rest is history.

I don't think it's good to air all this out in the public; but statements of facts which are clear misconceptions need to be refuted in order to keep the article with a NPOV. Issac 17:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Response to Vandalizer 69.112.63.43 a.k.a. Shlome

All this was already addressed numerous times on these talk pages. You can start reading here under the caption "Wikipedia is everybody's not just yours" it was meant especially for you. Also you can read the other Bobov talk pages i.e. Explanation for changes. You can also familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's rules, such as NPOV. In short; Wikipedia is not a soap box on which you stand and act out your frustrations. If you're sick and tired; I understand your pain; but please, not here.

I'll just answer here your new question on who decides what is mentchlich. Forget about mentchlich; ask yourself; is what you are doing (even if you are right) not a Chillul Hashem? The prerequisite to be a Bobover Chosid was always to be a mentch and it was instilled in us from the Rebbe (Zechisoi Yogain Oleinu; whose yortzeit is today) on down. Your above language disqualifies you as a Bobover Chosid let alone to speak in the name of Bobov.

You still have a right to write in Wikipedia; because it is as much yours as it is mines; but you don't have a right to vandalize; you have to play according to the rules; and if you don't; besides being considered an outcast; you are doing a disservice to your POV.

Now to your overall premise; I totally disagree with you; but if you really believe (as opposed to wanting to believe) that what you wrote is true; then can't you wait a "little" longer until after the Din Torah so everyone will "see" what you are seeing? Issac 18:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Mordechai, not Mordecai

It should say Mordechai, not Mordecai. Thoughts regarding a change? --Daniel575 16:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

The Mordecai (disambiguation) page has both spellings. Both don't sound right, as Mordche is the actual pronunciation in this case. If Mordche is unacceptable to Wikipedia; then Mordechai is preferable as it is at least closer to its real pronunciation.

BTW, what are the rules regarding anglicizing Hebrew names; especially when the anglicized version is never really used? Issac 00:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, if I look at Google, I see Mordecai being the English and Christian version of the name in question. Since other articles also uses the Hebrew version: Aharon, Moshe, Yitzchak etc, this article should be Mordechai. And yes, Mordche would be more correct, but we cannot adapt to all of those things. Similarly, we also write Yitzchak and not Yitzchok, and Moshe instead of Moishe. --Daniel575 14:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Added 'disputed' heading

To both the RMDU and RBZH pages. --Daniel575 16:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Please see discussion here regarding the "Disputed" label. And shed some light. Thanks. --216.75.77.221 (talk) 14:58, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is everybody’s not just yours

This is for 24.184.185.31.

Wikipedia is meant for everybody not only for you; therefore when something is in dispute; all points of view POV are represented; which produces an article with a neutral point of view NPOV.

When how to write an article or what to include in an article is in disagreement then everybody spells out their reasoning in the edit summary and on the talk pages until a formula can be agreed on which takes into consideration all POV's.

If a compromise still cannot be agreed upon; then there are other ways on how to proceed; including involving administrators.

But simply changing an article without bothering to explain is considered in very poor taste. Changing an article multiple times in this manor is considered vandalism.

Step number one: Give yourself a name; that makes you more legitimate; not a hit and runner.

Step number two: Explain yourself and join civilized society. Issac 23:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

24.184.185.31 How do you arrive to the number 80 percent?

Was your mathematical equation wrong; then you realized it was only 75 percent; or did an angel suddenly appear and tell you it's 75 percent? BTW my opinion is that for every chasid who will clearly identify himself as RBZH's a chasid (not just a 48 Streeter); there are at least two; who will identify themselves clearly as RMDU's. But my opinion, is only my opinion and doesn't give me the right to slant the article to my view.

Why is "the youngest" pertinent? What are you trying to say?

Whatever your answers are, at least half of Bobov doesn't think like you; and their opinion is at least as valid as yours in the eyes of Wikipedia. Therefore the article needs to remain neutral Issac 23:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

How do you arrive to the number 80 percent?

reply 'I'm going by school and shul attendance records. The average class in school at RMDU has an average of 15 boys from the old grade schools ( I know a kid - my nephew - at RMDU he says that his class has 12 boys from the old school the rest of the class is mostly mukater kids) preschool is nearly 40% mesivta about %50 (RBZH won the mesivta camp last summer cause he had 6 boys more than RMDU) so the school numbers are as follows nursery 50 of 150 kids ditto for kindergarten 1st grade 40 of 150 2nd grade through 9th is average 18 of 120 thats 144 of 960 pause to do the math so far - thats 284 of 1380 %70 stayed total only %86 without preschool finally 9th grade 40 of 110 - mesivta about %50 - 200 of 400

Was your mathematical equation wrong; then you realized it was only 75 percent; or did an angel suddenly appear and tell you it's 75 percent? BTW my opinion is that for every chasid who will clearly identify himself as RBZH's a chasid (not just a 48 Streeter); there are at least two; who will identify themselves clearly as RMDU's. But my opinion, is only my opinion and doesn't give me the right to slant the article to my view.

Why is "the youngest" pertinent? What are you trying to say?

reply HE IS, Reb Shiala the OLDER son in law, REFUSED the job! that should tell us something boys and girls.

Whatever your answers are, at least half of Bobov doesn't think like you; and their opinion is at least as valid as yours in the eyes of Wikipedia. Therefore the article needs to remain neutral.

LOOK AT THE PICS OF THE WEDDING IT DOESN'T COMPARE TO THE THE CHANUKA PICS AT 48TH ST PEOPLEWISE MUCH LESS THE CROWD AT THE GER'S WEDDING 24.184.185.31

24.184.185.31, Your answer to my question on how you got to 80 percent; I have no clue what you wrote. My question was a rhetorical one because I already made my opinion clear that RMDU has much more followers then RBZH. It was meant to expose; that you thought you’ll get away with writing 80 percent and then realizing how ridiculous that will sound, you quickly changed it to 75 percent; I’m sure that had you thought that you can get away with writing 99 percent; you would have done it; because the truth doesn’t matter. You weren't probably aware that there is a record here of everything anyone does; and it’s available for all to see; so by the time a newcomer figures out how things work here; Wikipedians have already detected an unaware sneak.

If you're trying to say that 48 St. has more kids in school then 45th St. which is true. First of all the 48 St. Cheder has a lot of children that are not Bobover and by default they stayed there. Then the amount of kids every school has doesn’t tell you much; because you have 45th St. kids in 48 St. Cheder but not vice versa. Kids are not Chasidim; they go where their parents send them, and if their parents are by default temporary still in 48 then so would their children. But a brand new Cheder for a Chasidus in exile which is less then a year old that has already close to 500 boys; almost all children of Bobover Chasidim; that is a major statement.

The Yeshiva Ketana for young bochurim; 48 St. has slightly more bochurim then 45th for the same reasons I mentioned above; but in the Mesivta for big bochurim and the same in the Kolel for married scholars where mostly people are on their own; 45th Street has the vast majority. Now to the most important aspect of true Chasidim (not just club members); the only measurement that really counts; RMDU has the vast majority of them, period.

Regarding the question "Why is the youngest pertinent?" I still don’t know what you are trying to say. When both son-in-laws were announced as the mamshichim (successors); it was also announced, then and there, that the two brother-in-laws will decide among themselves who will get what; and they did decide among themselves that RMDU will be the Rebbe and Reb Yehoshua Rubin the Ruv; all for us the better; as it turns out to be a better then thought situation where each functions fully the best in his own capacity.

Now regarding the pictures; you make me laugh. Yes, do look again at the pictures and start counting. For the numbers by us I don’t need pictures; I’m in those pictures. For the numbers in 48 St. I'm almost never there, so I have to rely on pictures and also other sources of information; then do my own analysis of what the data says; for example, the number of people; how many are real followers; how many of them are yet to come to us; how many will come only if Beth Din gives us the 48 St. Beis Medrash or if a peshora (compromise) can be reached where you get the big Shul and we get a few other buildings and compensation and we start building a new Shul; etc. etc. etc.

Wikipedia couldn’t care less who has the bigger crowd. As far as it is concerned every article needs to be presented with a NPOV and this article is no different. So then why am I writing all this? Because in order to get you and any other blinded individuals to finally confront reality; I need to throw the facts at you by pointing out the obvious; because only then will all the slanting to only one POV and hopefully the dispute, stop. Issac 18:57, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Editing this article

User:IZAK attracted my attention to the very heavy partisan editing on this page, including blanking. I must implore you all to behave like you would on the bus: everyone can see you, everyone will notice the infighting and the resultant chillul Hashem. Does the kovod of your rabbonim mean anything to you? If you do not start contributing more constructively, I will see to it that this page gets protected from editing, and not necessarily with the version you desire. JFW | T@lk 07:28, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Why are you Calling Rabbi Unger with the title Bobover Rebbe, when he is not? Chasid (talk · contribs)

I'm not doing anything. You have to explain your edits in edit summaries and this talk page, and hopefully we can reach an agreement on what this page should be saying. JFW | T@lk 22:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm an insider and i know the facts the way the are. Just because you say that the fact is that there are two bobover rebbes doesn't make it so, and because rabbi Unger and his followers call themselves bobov doesn't either make it so. That fact is this, the previous Rebbe R' Shlomo made it clear more then once to his closest people that he wants both of his sons to be rebbe after him, but what he didn't want was bobov to split as other chasidus do, therefore after the older son R' Naftuli passes on, then comes R' Benzion. When R' Shlomo passed away, R' Naftula himself agreed that his brother should become Rav Hatzuir which everybody knew it meant that he is next, and if you would ask any chasid of R' Mordechai Duvid including R' Mordechai Duvid himself a year ago, who is the next in line to be bobover rebbe they would all tell you the same thing that is was R' Benzion, but what happened since R' Naftula was sick the last year of his life, Rabbi Unger took advantage and tryed to get himself a following of people, and when that day came he had enough people to try to make a case that he should also be bobover rebbe, and they took R' Benzion to beis din. And Beis Din will decide if he is bobover rebbe or not. But meanwhile its only Rabbi Unger and his people and some other people calling him so, and the fact is also that most yiden wordwide don't recognize him as bobover rebbe,. Therefore it is not a fact that he is bobover rebbe, it is maybe a fact that he calles himself bobover rebbe but that doesn't make it so. Chasid (talk · contribs)

Chasid, without external sources supporting your view we can't be sure what is correct. For all we uninformed non-Bobovers know, the truth may well be according to the Unger camp. Such a high-profile succession dispute can't be conducted without some form of a paper trail. JFW | T@lk 21:29, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

just say that Rabbi Ben Zion is the Bobover Rebbe of 48th st and Rabbi Mordecai David is the Bobover Rebbe of 45th st - that's what it looks like from the external world, it's only inside Bobov anyone questions one or the other.

How about just like the all the newspapers do it. Reb Benzion is called Bobover Rebbe Shlit"a & Reb MD is called Reb Mordechai Duvid Unger Shlit"a.

Or how about just say that bies din will decide. As soon as they let the vote go through. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.184.164.108.

Hi Chaim/24.184.164.108. It's the other way around. Three weeks ago when Beth Din sat; 48 Street flatly rejected any vote; either open or closed votes. They also rejected bringing a list of their own. 45th Street on the other hand asked for a vote, and already produced a list showing that they are the majority. Issac 20:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Sign all your comments with the four tildes

Hello everyone, whoever you are: If you are a registered user, please sign all your comments with the four tildes ~~~~ so we can know who is saying what to whom. If you are not a registered Wikipedia user (editor) yet, please do so as soon as possible, it's FREE and it gives you more credibility than being an anonymous user, rather than making comments from the sidelines that no-one knows what to make of. Thanks a lot. IZAK 01:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

For a neutral point of view

For a neutral point of view, this article needs to be identical to the article of Rabbi Ben Zion Halberstam until after the Din Torah. The only difference can be in its biography.

The Hebrew wording was originally planted here in order to make Rabbi Morche Duvid a CHADBAN or anything other then an equal contender to the title Bobover Rebbe. Its intention wasn't to give more information; but to plant misinformation.

Wikipedia doesn't crown Rebbe's (or maybe it does, based on how much effort goes in, to write the articles with only one point of view; and I would dare say that it isn't even one point of view; but the view they would want you to have.)

Therefore either both are called here Bobover Rebbes; as they are in reality called so; each by approximately half of Bobover Chasidim; & all other Chassidus are also divided on this; some having the majority for Reb Ben Zion & some having the majority for Reb Mordche Duvid; or both being called "of Bobov" like the Hamodea & Yated who haven't to their credit taken a side in this dispute, calls them. Issac 22:25, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Most of the neutral newspapers, like כל העוילם כולו and Hamodia call R' Ben Zion כ"ק אדמו"ר מבאבוב, שליט"א and R' Mordche Dovid כ"ק אדמו"ר ר' מרדכי דוד אונגר שליט"א חדב"ן כ"ק אדמו"ר מהרנ"ץ מבאבוב זצ"ל

it's only Yated Neeman that says "of Bobov"

At last, someone to talk to, albeit no name.

Wikipedia Neutral point of view states, that no language is acceptable which implies that one view is more correct over another. Therefore giving Reb Mordche Duvid another option of a name was only put there to imply that Reb Ben Zion is the Bobover Rebbe, and Reb Mordche Duvid might be something else. In particular the title "Chadban" given to him; has a malicious intention (which I won't get into now).

Now to the Newspapers. Kol Hooilem Kiloi is not a neutral newspaper but a private publication (not a newspaper). It has covered both sides of Bobov equally as far as pictures are concerned (although it has accepted some doctored pictures from Reb Ben Zion's side, to make it look , as if they have more people. But the bottom line is that it is a business & it does what is good for its bottom line. Same goes for all private publications & newspapers. The Yid & the blaat have also political considerations. Der Zeitung is privately owned. The Hamodea; probably has no ax to grind; although I'm sure that among its editors there are different opinions. The only newspaper that probably has absolutely no ax to grind is the "Yated" & they have been absolutely neutral. Now if you look carefully; when they write "Reb Mordche Duvid son-in-law of Reb Naftuli Zvi Avda"k Bobov" it is written with intentional vagueness; as it can be read two ways; Reb Mordche Duvid (son-in-law of Reb Naftule) Avda"k Bobov; or Reb Mordche Duvid (son-in-law of Reb Naftule Avda"k Bobov); similar to Matisyuhi (Ben Yochoonon) Kohein Gudoil or Matisyuhi Ben (Yochoonon Kohein Gudoil). Now before someone bombards me with a list newspapers that it appears did take a stand; let me make a few things clear. In the beginning; most publications said "why should I stick out my neck for you?" they have the Beis Medrash therefore we have no problem calling them Bobov; you are in exile for now so we'll write about you as Bobov, as much as we can get away with, without antagonizing the other side into not buying our publication. (That was only when all else being equal; without a political or financial consideration). As it stands now; the newspapers are slowly giving in; for example the "Yid" published a huge Mazel Tov to "Reb Mordche Duvid Unger Avda"k Bobov"; and for those that want to argue that it was a paid advertisement; let me ask you; would they publish on lets say "you" Avda"k Bobov even if you paid them? Also the only difference between paid & not paid articles/advertisements is that one is paid for & the other not; but as to the content of its articles; all newspapers take responsibility.

What really counts is what the Street says. When you tell someone you're a Bobover chusid, they ask you; of whom, of Reb Mordche Duvid or Reb Ben Zion? If you tell someone in Boro Park that you are going to Bobov; they ask you, which Bobov? They don't ask you, to Bobov or Reb Mordche Duvid. On the Street it is clear to everyone (unless he has a bias & doesn't see objectively) that there are two Bobover Chassidus & it's going to stay that way. The only thing that is going to come out of the Din Torah is closure; and who gets what; in my opinion (IMO) there will be a peshura (compromise) & everybody will live happily ever after.

Now to throw out some names on the record, who called Reb Mordche Duvid Unger, Bobover Rebbe or Reb Yehoshua Rubin, Bobover Ruv; here are a few:

• Reb Yecheskel Roth (Karlburger Ruv, former Dayan of Satmer in Boro Park) in a letter to Rabbi Rubin, calls him "Avda"k Bobov".
• Kolel Shomrei Hachomois in a letter to Rabbi Rubin calls him "Avda"k Bobov".
• Kolel Zibenbergen in their publication (sent to its members & also published in the newspapers) called Rabbi Unger "Bobover Rebbe" & at their dinner they announced him as such.
• Vishnitzer Rebbe (Monsey) called him Bobover Rebbe.
• Kashauer Dayen of Montreal called him Bobover Rebbe.
• Skverer Dayan of Boro Park, Rabbi Steinmets called him Bobover Rebbe & held a fiery drasha calling him one of the great Manhigai Hador.
• In the Rachmestrivke Chasunah, Rabbi Unger was called up for Mitzvah Tantz as the "Bobover Rebbe" in the presence of the Rachmestrivke Rebbe.
• In the Tosher Chasunah, Rabbi Unger was called up for Mitzvah Tantz as the "Bobover Rebbe" in the presence of the Tosher Rebbe. There are lots more, but this is what I recall on the top of my head.
• Here are a few names of Rabbonim who came to Reb Mordche Duvid's Tish or a personal visit.
  • The Biyoner Ruv, Rabbi Eichler.
  • Ponovitcher Rosh Hayeshiva, Rabbi Dov Pavarski.
  • Rabbi Chaim Leib Kats, Serdiheler Ruv and numerous more who I don't recall on the spot.
• At the Tnoyim of the daughter of Reb Mordche Duvid Unger; over fifty Rabbonim, Dayonim, Rebbes & roshei Hayeshiva came to Bobov 45th Street to say Mazel Tov; to name a few:
  • The Rabbonim of Karlsburg, Serdehel, Krasna, Primishlan (Rabbi Herbst), Pupa (Boro Park), Tenke, Norol, Shenitze, Neimark, Limenov, Altstadter (Rabbi Teumim), Neipest, Temeshvar, Chust, Liska, Hibnev, Leipnik, Biyon, Kolomeier, Brizdovitz, Tshetchenever, Radimishle, Strasburg.
  • The Dayonim of Pupa, Belz (All three Dayoonim in Boro Park), Satmer (Basewater), Skver, Satmer (Rabbi Leichtag).
  • The Roshei Yeshivos, Rabbi Bittesfeld, Rabbi Moshe Bramburg Rosh Hayeshiva of Bobov (45th Street) & the Rosh Hakolel of Klausenburg, Rabbi Deutch.
  • The Rebbes of Alexander, Deish, Spinka (18th Ave), Sasregen, Tzanz Gribev, Gorlitz, Chust, Dombrove, Ziditshoiv (Be'er Sheva), Kolbisov.
• Most of the prominent decendants of the Kedushas Zion; support Reb Mordche Duvid, like the Frishvassers of London etc.
• If the great Gaon Reb Chaim Kanievsky called him Bobover Rebbe, I don't know; but what is known, is that he holds Rabbi Mordche Duvid Unger in high esteem. Issac 00:15, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Nobody denies Rabbi Mordechai David is a great talmid chacham and tzaddik, and all agree that he has the right to be a Rebbe. Even Rabbi Ben Zion's Hassidim grant him the title of Admor, only as Admor of Kortshin, which he has of his own right. However, Rabbi Mordechai David's hasidim will not fargin Rabbi Ben Zion to have any title of Rebbe.

Shouldn't there be mention of R' Mordechai Dovid's own yichus in the succession box?

Itzik18 What I wrote above wasn't meant to tell the world, that Reb Mordche Duvid is a "great talmid chacham and tzaddik"; that, was already known over 30 years ago by everyone; just by the fact that he was chosen as a choson for Reb Naftulche's daughter. What I did intend; is to give a general picture of what the world thinks of the dispute in Bobov; by illustrating that hundreds of Rabonim, Dayonim, Rebbes & Roshei Yeshivos felt a need to either show that they are neutral in this dispute; and quite a few felt a need to make it known that they consider Reb Mordche Duvid as the Bobover Rebbe.

"all agree that he has the right to be a Rebbe" is very nice of you; it's elementary.

"Even Rabbi Ben Zion's Hassidim grant him the title of Admor, only as Admor of Kortshin, which he has of his own right." Who are they to give him the title of Admor? Usually Chassidim give their Rebbe the title "Admor"; but I have never heard that Chassidim of one Rebbe give the title of "Admor" to someone else's Rebbe; have you? Now to "Kortshin" which you say, that he has of his own right; I really wonder at you, that you have fallen for this farce. Don't you know that the "Kartshin" ploy has been hatched by Reb Ben Zion's henchmen with a well planned plan, to create an illusion as if Reb Mordche Duvid Unger has another title, with the intention that at the Din Torah they will try to get the Beth Din to make a peshora that Reb Ben Zion is Bobov, but Reb Mordche Duvid is Kartshin-Bobov; which then they could claim, that Reb Ben Zion is Bobov & Reb Mordche Duvid is not Bobov. To this end they printed tens of thousands of postcards (with the return address of Reb Mordche Duvid Unger) with the yichus of Rabbi Unger as a descendant of the Kartshiner Rebbe, who passed away a hundred years ago) and tried to send it to the entire Chareidi list. It has worked on some innocent souls; who thought that "L'maan Hashoolem" Reb Mordche Duvid gave up on his title Bobov. But nothing can be further then the truth, that Reb Mordche Duvid cannot give up, on his own volition the title Bobov; because he didn't become "Bobover Rebbe" for his own kovod (for which he can be "mvater"); but for the kovod of his "Shver" the Rebbe Reb Naftule. The first few weeks after he became Rebbe if you came close up, you would see that he had washed out eyes; because he first had to make a "Cheshben Hanefesh" to make sure that he meant the "Kvoid Shomayim" and "Kvoid Beis Abba". Believe me, if I thought that he had his own kovod in mind; I wouldn't be there one day; I am nobody's fool. So for some people to fall for this, I can understand; but for you who has a record of writing about all Rebbes; so you must know something about the subject; to push this "Kurtshin/Kortshin" line, smacks with insincerity.

"However, Rabbi Mordechai David's hasidim will not fargin Rabbi Ben Zion to have any title of Rebbe." is blatantly false. If Reb Ben Zion would have agreed before the Levaye to negotiate; he would have been, way ahead then where he is now. He would at the minimum have gotten a Bais Medrash; but more importantly, all of Bobov & by extension the entire Chasidishe world would be giving him kovod because he is the son of the great Rebbe Reb Shloime (in addition to ending the dispute b'derech hashoolem). Now as it stands he lost half of the Bobover Chassidim to Reb Mordche Duvid Unger; & the other half; I would dare say that at least half of them are not Chassidim of Reb Ben Zion but are the forty eight Street Bais Medrash Chassidim; they are either unwilling to give up the comfortbility of their Bais Medrash or are unable for various reasons to leave as of now, the Beis Medrash. Don't forget, 48th Street is not a competition to 45th Street; it's the other way around, 45th Street is a great competion to 48th Street. I know I speak for most Bobover Chassidim, Chassidim of Reb Mordche Duvid that even now, we more then fargin Reb Ben Zion the title Rebbe, & for the sake of Shoolom most of us are willing that there be two Bobover Rebbes just like in most other Chassidus that you have correctly stated, that split or eventually will split; & it shouldn't be considered a bad thing at all; and I would add, let Bobov be an example that after the psak din of the Din Torah which in my opinion will end with a peshora; I am sure that almost all Bobover Chassidim will reunite in shoolem, & I think a day will come when all this will be totally forgotten. Personally I don't have any ill feelings towards Reb Ben Zion & I would surely greet him if I saw him. A day will come when he will see who his real enemies are; that the closest people around him used him for their own interests to stay (or get) in power.

Now to your last question "Shouldn't there be mention of R' Mordechai Dovid's own yichus in the succession box?" The answer is no because Reb Mordche Duvid has not succeeded his father; his older brother Reb Ben Zion Unger already has succeeded his father as "Dombrover Rebbe"; but if there should be his yichus it belongs in his biography; the succession is of Bobov not of Dombrov.

I saw your opening remarks that you wrote months ago. As an "outsider" who has taken a side; it is quite a fair article; it's interesting that so many people, not Bobover; who for some reason or another have decided to actively take a side in this dispute, when this is a "Riv Lo Loch". Issac 00:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Itzik18 This is what Gal-Einei writes today in Hydepark; I'll translate when I have time. He is more conservative then me; I think the numbers are more in favor with us then this. Issac 21:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

לגבי בחירות בבאבוב

להוי ידוע שצד רבינו מבאבוב שליט"א הניח הצעה מפורשת על השולחן ללכת לבחירות והסכים שקולות הבחירה יהוו סוף פסוק, ומשקל ברור, צד האדמו"ר מהרב"צ שליט"א ביקשו לשקול הדבר אחרי שישבו שעות ארוכות ועבדו קשה לראות מי ומי ההולכים לא הסכימו לבחירות בשום פנים ואופן,

ההשערה שלהם ממקור טוב היא שארבעים אחוז שהלכו עם רבינו מבאבוב שליט"א לגלות זמנית הרי בטוח בכיס רבינו שליט"א ואלו שנשארו בבהימ"ד לכה"פ שליש מהם הם אנשי פרווה (פתק לבן) שאחרי הטרור של עשרה החדשים האחרונים קשה לחזות איך יצביעו מאחרי פרגוד, ועוד שליש לכאורה יצביע לרבינו מבאבוב שליט"א אם כן הם נשארו רק אם שליש בטוח שזה עשרים אחוז מבאבוב, ועוד עשר אחוז שהם מאמנים שבטוח יקבלו סך הכל שלושים אחוז. וזה מדיר שנה מעינם משא"כ צד רבינו יודע בבירור שארבעים אחוז איתו באש ובמים גם בגלות, ועוד לכל הפחות חמש עשרה אחוז עוד נשארו בבהימ"ד ואנו בטוחים שיצבעו איתנו, וכל קול למעלה מחמשים וחמש אחוז הרי זה משובח

Bobover Dayan

The bobover dayan was respected and held of high esteem by everyone, those in 48 Bobov and those in 45 for many years. How is it that people walked away from him when he crowned R' Benzion as Rebbe. All biggest, complicated questions were presented to him (chaivai kreises and the like). All the untold stories of his ehrlichkeit and helping hand to everyone in the community, big or small. Why is his hachtorah being put to sham. Doesn't anyone STOP and think anymore??? Are we so smart?

Unfair & one sided POV edits clad in innocence

209.155.49.3, I have already told you that the Dombrover Rebbe already has a successor he is Rabbi Ben Zion Unger; so why do you keep pushing that Reb Mordche Duvid is the successor to his father? Also even without that; this article is about the successorship of Bobov not Dombrov.

Also why do you keep pushing his illustrous yichus? Maybe list here, his entire family tree with all the Rebbes that he is a descendant of? Issac 19:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)