Talk:Moravians (ethnic group)

Moravians /Ethnic group/- it is a nonsense.

Of course it is. Moravian nation doesn't exist. Nations have their languages, their special culture. I've never heard about some Moravian language. --Zik2 (talk) 14:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Moravians as a nation are existing since 818 - for the first time mentioned in the chronicle of the Lorch monastery. Moravians are the oldest middle european nation - existing of course to the present time. Lit: L.E.Havlik: Moravske letopisy /Moravian Chronicle/, Brno 1993, p. 28, etc.

The oldest middle European nation? How did you count that? --Zik2 (talk) 14:17, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, how do you know they dont exist?Tic-tac2 (talk) 17:02, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Tic-tac2[reply]

Have Austrians or Canadians or Brazilians they own language? NO. Are they nations (ethnic groups)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.85.75.177 (talk) 09:31, 15 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You confuse language and ethnic group. I am Argentinian, and I speak "Spanish", but I do not identify as "Spanish". In Bolivia "Spanish" is spoken, but more than the half of population is native ethnic groups. Are they "Spanish"? My father is Argentinian, he speaks "Spanish", but he doesn´t have any Spanish blood. Is he "Spanish"? You confuse language and ethnic group, and your attitude is typically ethnocentric. You delete and refuse the ethnic identity of some people. Do you know how we identify in Argentina? How Brazilians identify? How Canadians identify? In Argentina we identify as Argentinians. In Brazil they identify as Brazilians. We are nations. Not more, not less. Your attitude is typically ethnocentric and eurocentric. "Only in Europe exist nations" Catch a book, please, and read and learn more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.55.79.86 (talk) 16:21, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

white mist have come across your mind? That sentence is clearly related to statement of Zik2

I am Moravian. But I am not Czech! This article is not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.240.123.186 (talk) 22:37, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Moravian language exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.240.123.186 (talk) 22:39, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Total population

The article claims that there are about 500,000 Moravians but Moravia has about 3 or 4 million of inhabitants, only a small portion of them declared Moravian nationality. But I don't believe I can prove it, so I guess we will have to keep the article saying a false claim. --Millenium187 (talk) 11:42, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is hard to say what nationality someone is, if Moravian or Czech. If man from Šumperk is living in Prague, is he Moravian or not? Or what about Moravian aristocrat, who is descendant of benefactors and rulers of Moravia, but because he spend his life in exile, he is better speaking German than Czech (of course, he feels, that he is Moravian). Is better to leave this to personal opinion about himself.--Yopie (talk) 23:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is not hard to say, more depends on where the person comes from, where he has roots, that where right now live. Is Russian living in Prag Czech? Not, he is still Russian (ethnically and landconnect). But in the first place is how it feels every person himself. Someone from Europe can live in China and can say anything about themselves. Everyone has the rights to "self-determination" without coercion, has the right to choose. Im Moravian (ethnically and landconnect), my family tree goes back to 1621 to Battle of White Mountain, where Czechs and Moravians fought together. Earlier data we have failed to find and we will probably never find it. Ask my 85 year old grandmother, if she speaks Czech. She says yes, because that way she learned it and "literary Czech in schools is the law." If you talk to her more, you will not understand it, has different inflections of words, different accent, there are other words that link to the earlier language and origin. I'm proud that I can speak as she and my ancestors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arexis Morau (talk • contribs) 10:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Moravian Language"

One editor is rewriting this article with his agenda about "Moravian Language". He uses as positive reference only one scholar article, as other sparse references are about this phenomena, but describe it as "absurd thing". There are not newspapers or books written in this newly created language. Discussion about this was here wiki/Talk:Moravia#Doncsecz.27s_efforts_to_promote_anywhere_your_own_article_and_political_opinion, with consensus ""some Moravians assert that the Moravian is a distinct language, however, their efforts are not widely supported by academics and the public"). We use consensus for editorial decision-making and we must obey basics principles, as WP:UNDUE. Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources and the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. Thanks for understanding. --Yopie (talk) 23:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but i was student at the University in the Faculty of Slavic languages. Is irrelevant that there are no Moravian newspapers, books, before the 19th century everybody was of the wiew, that the Moravians and Bohemians is different people and language. The Czech sources is biased againts the Moravians. The Slovakian intellectuals first not wanted the Czech-Slovak unit, but the Moravian-Slovak unit. Doncsecz^talk 06:43, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

add source how many Moravians are speaking different language than Czech and read Jesus Christ, in the article is a source from Zbyšek Šustek, what languages spoken the Moravians. Doncsecz^talk 09:24, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any reliable source, other than this one article? And different language before 19th century - e.g. Comenius [1]and Palacký ([2]) described himself as "Czech speaking Moravians". Please, add reliable sources for your opinion and before this do not disrupt the article.--Yopie (talk) 09:27, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Palacky was a nationalist. Other sources from chronicles and letters of kings testify about the Moravians. The Moravians never called his language that Czech. Moravia was individual country within the Kingdom of Bohemia. Doncsecz^talk 09:34, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As you probably don't understand - there are reliable sources, that "Moravian language" is fringe theory. We concluded, that there are no books or newspapers written in Moravian and even webpage of so-called Ústav jazyka moravského is written in Czech. Thus adding Moravian language at first place in the table is not justified. All is about reliable sources. I agree, that Moravia was different country, but this not meant different language. --Yopie (talk) 09:44, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My studies in the University about the West-Slavic languages claim from neutral linguists, the until the 19th century wrote Moravians books and others, where was used in Upper-Hungary (now Slovakia). The Moravian literature disapeared in the 19th century, but the loss of a literature can not do dialect from a language. In Russian Tsardom was prohibited the Ukrainian and Belarusian literature, as according to the Russian state, the Ukrainian is a Russian dialect. Same thing happened in Moravia, however, the Moravian literature has not yet been raised. In Belarusia the original Belarusian language fell in the countrys in the dialects. In the towns speak a Russian-Belarusian pinjin language. Doncsecz^talk 09:51, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm quite tired by this prolonged quarrel with a political agitator. Stop endlessly talking about your education, about your POV on Czech history or Bohemian-Moravian relations, stop blame all Czech authors and scientist for alleged "nationalism" and – add relevant and reliable source!! (Preferably in some world language – in the interest of objectivity.)

Who – from renowned linguists – accept an existence of the Moravian language? I mean present, contemporary existence (either literary or even colloquial) not any project or attempts from early 19th c. or from 1990s. Which known encyclopaedies/papers/books write about this "language", which library, language regulator or similar institution is aware of such language and assigned it its own code? The answer is clear. NOBODY, NONE.

Yes, during the Middle Ages and Early modern period part of Moravian society (but not all people in Moravia as you claim!! Renowned personalities like Jan Dubravius, John Amos Comenius, Jan Blahoslav, Jiří Třanovský etc. etc. named their language as český, "Bohemian" – so, you are not right in this point) called their group of dialects moravský jazyk ("Moravian language"). Here should be note one substantial thing: Pre-modern Europe, divided into hundreds of regions, knew also hundreds of "languages" because people from certain region usually called their dialects as languages – according to territorial principle, i.e. name of territory = derived name of "language". Only modern linguistic researches have classified various vernaculars as dialects, language subgroups or separate languages. First and foremost this scientific classification is valid, not popular (self)designation or fabrication of "new language" in style of romantic nationalism.

Btw, Your comparisons of so-called "Moravian language" to the Ukrainian and Belarusian languages which were formerly prohibited by Russian government is absurd. Even if it wanted, until the creation of independent Czech(oslovak) state in 1918 the Czechs were not in a such situation which should enabled prohibit or dictate anything to the people of Moravia. All 3 Czech lands were subjected to the chief government of Vienna. I suppose You know it very well. --Iaroslavvs (talk) 15:52, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Iaroslav please don't speak, as your statements is nationalistic. Last time you searched in my private posts from the internet. Course some Moravians said, that the Moravians is Bohemians, however Nikola Krajačević said, that the Kajkavians is Slovenes, not Croats. Palacky was also Moravian, but in the Prekmurje also was conspirators of the Slovenes nationalists, who prevented the installation of prekmurism in the Slovene Standard language. Palacky also said, that the Moravism is not appropriate in the Czech literary, where also a one-sided, artificial, unhelpful language such as the Slovene, Croatian, Bulgarian languages. Doncsecz^talk 17:14, 13 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]