Talk:Montclair-Boonton Line

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Ampere Station

The Ampere Station was not on the Montclair Branch it was in East Orange and ran on the Morristown line from Morristown, Newark Broad Street and Hoboken Terminal. I will be reinstating it and deleting it from the Montclair-Boonton line article. 151.198.167.183 07:23, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's on the Montclair/Boonton Line, in east orange It should be kept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tlantanu (talk • contribs) 13:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weekend Service

I deleted this section after reading that its service will be pushed back for quite some time, with no firm start date anymore. --AEMoreira042281 (talk) 04:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you restore it with that information? People will come here trying to find out what the deal is with the delays and all they get is a statement that there is no service.

electrification segment on Great notch

whoever wrote this clearly was angry at NJ transit, perhaps someone affected by what happened. I did my best to reword the slander and comparisons to genocide, but it still needs to be more wikified. maybe it could be moved to the Great Notch (NJT station) article Tlantanu (talk) 22:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Ruhrfisch

As requested, here is a peer review of the article. I will start this now, but will not finish the review now (more later).

The lead is six paragraphs long - per WP:LEAD, the lead should not be more than four paragraphs long.
I also note that are items in the lead which seem to be only in the lead, like Peak trains arrive in New York City on weekdays between 7:47 am and 8:58 am, and in Hoboken on weekdays between 7:13 am and 9:03 am. Peak trains leave New York on weekdays between 4:52 pm and 6:40 pm, while peak trains depart Hoboken on weekdays between 4:29 pm and 6:51 pm. Since the lead is a summary of the whole article, there really should not be anything which is only in the lead.
I also wonder if the level of detail in the lead is appropriate - I think of the lead as an overview of the article for the interested reader, but the current lead seems a bit too detailed. One potential problem is having to update the lead and the article body every time the schedules on the line change - if the lead is a more general overview, only the text would need to be kept up to date.
I also wonder about providing context to the reader with some of the detailed information. For example, with the sentence quoted above or Out of 31 inbound and 34 outbound daily weekday trains, 21 inbound and 22 outbound Midtown Direct trains (about 66%) use the Kearny Connection (opened June 10, 1996) to Secaucus Junction and New York Penn Station; the rest go to Hoboken Terminal. The latter sentence has the date for the Kearney Connection opening (which is good), but my guess is that in the 14 years since the connector opened, these numbers may well have varied / fluctuated, so this probably needs an "As of 2010" or "Since YEAR" some such qualifer. This may also be a WP:RECENT issue.
On my monitor there is a huge amount of white space from the long infobox (The History section starts about at the "Denville electrification resumes" level on the infobox on my monitor.
There are also some fairly serious text sandwiches between images on my monitor, which the MOS is not in favor of. I understand wanting to get all the images in - would something like {{double image}} work better?

OK, I am calling it a night. Will have more comments in the next few days, looking more at the text and any other issues. Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:59, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- A quick look at the lead shows much improvement. I will satrt making nitpicky comments on specifics of language, etc., tomorrow. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

First off let me say how impressed I am with the level of detail that went into this - I know it represents a tremendous amount of work to research, photograph and write all this and I will try and point out the nitpicks and rough spots remaining.
Is it possible to give a distance for the length of the line or perhaps of the two lines that formed this one?
Similarly, would it help to add the general direction of the line leaving NYC / Hoboken in the lead - it looks on a map like the line must go west of Hoboken and a little north - later we learn the revere ttravel heads east, but my guess is more people will have an idea where Hoboken and NYC are relative to the state of NJ than Hackettstown.
I also think a map of New Jersey showing the major cities on the line would help provide context to the reader - the schematic in the infobox is cool, but it does not give the same infromation that a map would.
Problem sentence The train service serves 27-28 active rail stations, including six in the town of Montclair, two in the town of Bloomfield and formerly two in the city of Newark. First off "service serves" seems a bit repetitive - would something like "Trains on the line serve" mean the same thing? Second, the 27-28 active stations is not really explained well in the article, just given in the lead and infobox. Since the 28th seems to be in NYC, could something like "Trains on the line serve 27 active rail stations in New Jersey..." work? If need be, Penn Station could be mentioned here too, since that is probably the most well known station on the line (I know it is mentioned later in the lead). Third and last, the sentence seems to mix tenses - most of it is describing the current line, but then and formerly two in the city of Newark. comes along and seems to be describing the past. To me this was confusing, because later the reader learns there is one station in Newark that is still active (Newark Broad Street Station).
Another problem - using "either" and a list pretty much requires "or" later, not "and": Trains along the Montclair-Boonton Line heading eastward usually originate at either Hackettstown station, Mount Olive station, Lake Hopatcong Dover station, and Montclair State University station for either Hoboken Terminal or New York Penn Station. As mentioned above, would it make sense to describe this the other way too - heading west from Hoboken / Penn Central?
Could this be tightened to something like For daily weekday and Midtown Direct trains in 2010, 21 of 31 inbound and 22 of 34 outbound trains (about 66%) use the Kearny Connection, which opened June 10, 1996 to Secaucus Junction and New York Penn Station; the rest go to Hoboken Terminal. I am not sure I kept the meaning as I was not sure of the difference(s) between a daily weekday train and Midtown Direct trains
I am still not sure the peak arrival and departure times for Hoboken and Penn Central belong in the lead in that level of detail - they are also not repeated elsewhere in the article that I could find. I think I would rather have two more sentences on the history of the lines in the lead, but I like history ;-)
Link Morris & Essex and Norfolk Southern in the lead?
New York & Greenwood Lake line comes out of left field - assume it became the Boonton line later? Perhaps something like Plans for connecting the two lines via a new rail connection through Montclair date back to 1929, when the lines were known as the New York & Greenwood Lake (now the Boonton Line) and the Montclair Branch.
Unclear sentence, not sure how to fix it However, after years of debating the situation, nothing was ever constructed, and trains though were routed out of Lackawanna Terminal in 1981 for Bay Street. "nothing was ever constructed" is not true as the lead has already said about the Monclair Connection. I ma not sure if "and trains though" is a typo for "and trains through" or if it means something like "instead trains were routed in 1981..." I am also not sure the average reader will understand the significance of the Lackawanna Terminal or Bay Street (besides the fact that they were kludges of some sort)
A bit awkward and long: In 1991, studies returned and were conducted by New Jersey Transit to create the Montclair Connection, and in 2002, after construction was completed, the Boonton Line from Walnut Street station to Arlington was abandoned and all trains took the new alignment via the Montclair Branch between a newly-rebuilt Bay Street station and Walnut Street. How about something like active voice In 1991, New Jersey Transit (NJT) conducted studies which led to the creation of the Montclair Connection, which was completed in 2002. After the connection opened on Septemebr 30, NJT abandoned the Boonton Line from Walnut Street station west to Arlington; all trains took the new alignment via the Montclair Branch between a newly-rebuilt Bay Street station and Walnut Street. Not perfect, but maybe gives an idea? That way you could drop the date from the current next sentence too and just start with "Three stations on the old Boonton Line ..."
How about In addition to the Montclair Connection, service was extended in 1994 from Netcong station to Hackettstown via tracks owned by Norfolk Southern. Stations at Roseville Avenue, Ampere and Great Notch were closed in 1984, 1991 and 2010 respectively. I split this into two sentences as I do not see the logical connection between the two phrases now in one sentence. If there is a connection, it needs to be made clearer.
Could be tweaked for clarity too - is this one proposal, two or three? Service expansions have been proposed using the in-construction branch to Andover via the Lackawanna Cut-Off project, an extension on old New York and Greenwood Lake tracks to Pompton Junction and the New York, Susquehanna and Western. How about Service expansions have been proposed using the branch to Andover (still under construction as of 2010) via the Lackawanna Cut-Off project, or via an extension on old New York and Greenwood Lake tracks to Pompton Junction and the New York, Susquehanna and Western there. (seems like it is two proposals?)

OK, I am calling it a night - will work on History next. If this is useful, could you let me know here please? Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:33, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done for most of these. The technical stuff will come later. But yes, very helpful.Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 19:45, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Good, thanks - I usually go back when I am semi-satisfied with an article and rework the lead, so you might want to do that. I will be glad to take another look at the lead, but let me look at most everything else first and then see if I think the lead is a good summary of the whole thing. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:29, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Montclair Branch (Delaware, Lackawanna and Western)

A few places sound odd, but this may be standard train language that just is unfamiliar to my ear: "The alignment of the Montclair Branch originates to 1852,..." Why not just say something like "The history of the Montclair Branch began in 1852, ..."? or can accessed be removed from "However, tracks were not constructed along the accessed right-of-way until June 1856,..."?
Wikilink brakeman, Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad, Dentil, and alignment depression (is there a link for this last one?) Not sure 20th century (note capitalization) needs to be wikilinked.
A bit awkward The Morris & Essex began maintenance on the line, which was renamed the Montclair Branch, after West Bloomfield was renamed Montclair shortly after. perhaps something like The Morris & Essex began maintenance on the line, and when West Bloomfield was renamed Montclair a short time later, renamed the line the Montclair Branch. or perhaps The Morris & Essex began maintenance on the line, and named it the Montclair Branch when West Bloomfield was renamed Montclair a short time later.
Tighten and by the turn of the 20th Century, the railroad had begun constructing alignment depressions to eliminate grade-level crossings on city streets.[4][5]
Tighten "However, Botsford ~~himself~~ did not live to see his project open~~. He had~~[, having] died in the sinking of the Titanic the year prior." (note italics for ship's name)
I think the link wanted is Doric order (for "Grecian-Doric")
Last poaragraph is there any reason not to be chronological in order (1930 electrification before 1945 takeover?)
- Calling it a night - more in the next day or two. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:44, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Most of these were easy and fixed with some changes. :) Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 18:29, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I just copyedited the section, mostly to tighten it - does that seem OK to you? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:46, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Looks good :) Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 05:08, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(out) Thanks - will work more on it and may do copyedits and ask here if unclear / unsure. When was the New York & Greenwood Lake Railroad (Erie) founded in the area - 1878? Not clear form the articles here. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:14, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1878 at full length.Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 16:34, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Section break

New York & Greenwood Lake Railroad (Erie)

Since the article is New York and Greenwood Lake Railway (1878–1943), I think the header should not have an ampersand (currently it is "New York & Greenwood Lake Railroad (Erie)". Ditto the text in this article itself (or is the other article incorrect?)
The date should be in there earlier. More soon, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:52, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As a general comment, I think the style and structure should be similar for the various sections of History. So the first section, "Montclair Branch (Delaware, Lackawanna and Western)", is told in chronological order and that works well here. I think this section would also work better if it were told in a similar chronological style, starting with the founding of the line.
I also think that the focus of this article should be chiefly on the Montclair-Boonton Line and its history and stations. I think it is OK to mention where this line originally went (Hoboken to the NJ/NY line) and that mentioning its connections is probably also OK, but I think the current level of detail on the history of stations not a part of the Montclair-Boonton Line is a bit much.
I think this extra material on stations outside of the Montclair-Boonton Line is good, and it should be in the main article on this line, but I do not see how it really belongs here. If there are good reasons for including it here, please let me know, but I just don't see how history of stations outside the Walnut Street – Mountain View stretch of the Montclair-Boonton Line belong here.
I would start this section with the sentence The New York and Greenwood Lake originated as the New York and Montclair Railroad, granted a state charter in 1867 to construct a railroad from Jersey City to the New York state line at Greenwood Lake. Next I would put it into context for the reader with a modified version of the current first sentence of the section Completed in 1868, the New York and Greenwood Lake soon became a subsidiary of the Erie Railroad; what was once its track is now the Walnut Street – Mountain View stretch of the Montclair-Boonton Line. and go from there. It is generally clearer to go from general to specifics, so I would talk about the overall line, then talk about the stations. What do you think? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:46, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've cut it significantly, but I am trying to make sure the full line history is covered in the necessary detail, since some of it is in possible reusing.Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 04:13, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be very clear, I was not saying get rid of the material completely - I think it should be on Wikipedia and I assumed it would fit in the New York and Greenwood Lake Railway (1878–1943) article. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm holding off since adding random info with nowhere to place it in the article would be more worth it when the entire article is rewritten, a job I may end up doing, sine I see little interest to pre-1983 stuff.Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 15:53, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I just feel bad that all that detailed history is not somewhere on Wiki now (besides old versions of this). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Erie Lackawanna Railroad

This sentence needs to be cleaned up - probably split for clarity To make way for the new Interstate 80 and the current-day New Jersey Route 19 (then designated New Jersey Route 20, the western-most segment of NJ 20 was connected east with what is now New Jersey Route 120, replicating Paterson Plank Road from Jersey City through the Meadowlands, Rutherford and Clifton to Paterson), and the old DL&W Boonton Line was abandoned between Wayne and Clifton. Perhaps something like this would work In YEAR, the old DL&W Boonton Line was abandoned between Wayne and Clifton and its right of way was sold for the new Interstate 80 and the current-day New Jersey Route 19. (At that time, NJ 19 was designated New Jersey Route 20; the western-most segment of NJ 20 was connected east with what is now New Jersey Route 120, replicating Paterson Plank Road from Jersey City through the Meadowlands, Rutherford and Clifton to Paterson). Otherwise a fine section Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done.Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 15:37, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problems with New Jersey Transit section or Montclair Connection section, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Montclair State University Station

I am not sure why the second sentence starts with "however". To my thinking, starting a sentence with however implies that there is an unexpected change from the previous sentence, and I am not sure what that is. Is however right? If so what more details can be added to make this clearer? I assumed that the first sentence was a general plan and the second referred to the specific plan they developed, which is why however seemed out of place.

Done.Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 15:37, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since the finished garage had more spaces than were mentioned in the plan (1500 vs 1300), should this be mentioned somehow? Also did the cost come in as planned ($36 million) or did that change too?

Done.Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 15:37, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't this have kilometers too? Electrified service was then extended from Montclair Heights station north a mile to Montclair State University, ...
I just copyedited Wayne–Route 23 and Mount Arlington stations hopefully I did not introduce any errors.

Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weekend service

I am confused as the section first mentions requests for weekend service as soon as the new line opened in 2002 (for 6 years until it started), then it says the requests started in 2007. Which is it? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Track or Tracks?

Most of this line between Montclair State University and Denville is single track. The article makes no mention of this (or else I missed it) and uses the plural term "tracks" rather than the singular "track" to describe the single track section of the line. I am not sure whether this is correct, but if the singular term is not used, then mention should be made of the single track status over this portion. One consequence of this single track section that might also be worthy of note is that many trains that run between Montclair State and Dover do so in only one direction, making the return trip between Dover and Hoboken over the Morristown line. Rlendog (talk) 14:40, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR applies to the last sentence here. Also when I used tracks I meant the alignment of the line rather than constituting the # of tracks, but yes its single track.Mitch32^{(Growing up with Wikipedia: 1 edit at a time.)} 14:46, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Benson Street and Rowe Street were already within blocks of open stations" removed - violates npov

Selective and out of context inclusion of this line (straight from NJT's "Talking Points" at the time of the closure - complete with the meaningless weasel-word phrase "within blocks") adds nothing to this article, but is clearly an attempt by user Oknazevad to provide "justification" for the closure of the 2 stations and to influence the opinion of the reader - literally the wictionary-definition of "propaganda"

HerbertMMarx (talk) 04:55, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Way to fail WP:AGF there, pal. It's quite clear from your original edit summary that you have an axe to grind with NJT. I have no such PoV, and am insulted that you would dare question my motives. I am not the editor who added the passage to the article, and indeed the passage has been in the article since before I first read it. Withdraw your accusation immediately. oknazevad (talk) 17:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My objection to the original edit that you restored has nothing at all to with grinding axes. What I object to is editing that has the effect of slanting articles in this encyclopedia by including "Talking Points" issued by a public agency to try and justify that agency's actions. Calling something that is propaganda what it is (especially in the edit summary) is perfectly legit, if perhaps poor phrasing - which is why I rephrased it above. That you would restore that selective and out of context line tars you with the same brush as the original editor (although it's true that I should have named you both). Restoration of an unsourced and clearly biased entry would tend to call into question either one's motives or one's competence, that said, if I incorrectly questioned your motives, I apologize. HerbertMMarx (talk) 18:37, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Closed Stations

This is incomplete. It should include Forest Hill, Soho, Belwood Park, Bloomfield and Singac on the Greenwood Lake, and Montville on the Boonton Line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.70.103.241 (talk) 19:51, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Montville, as it is a former station on the currently active line. However, the others are on the segment no longer in service, and were closed long before the line was consolidated, in some cases before the Greenwood Lake and Boonton lines were merged c. 1960, so I'm not so sure if they belong. The New York and Greenwood Lake Railway article might be a better fit. oknazevad (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Essex-Hudson Greenway section or mention for Lower Boonton Line track?

Earlier this year, Norfolk Southern agreed to begin talks to sell the 10 mile stretch of track that was closed in 2002 when the Montclair Connection opened. Should we make mention of this since it does include the former portion of the line? I do think this should be mentioned in the New York and Greenwood Lake Railway article at the very least but I wanted to bring it up here too.

Source 1, Source 2, Link to the Greenway's section on the NJ Bike & Walk Coalition ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 15:11, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Where does this bridge belong?

I snapped a nice pic earlier this year and I think it belongs in this article but the various segments confuse me and I don't know which article section belongs to it. Help! Jim.henderson (talk) 23:48, 30 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Dark Orange Line (New Jersey Transit)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Dark Orange Line (New Jersey Transit) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 December 22 § Dark Orange Line (New Jersey Transit) until a consensus is reached. Taking Out The Trash (talk) 21:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]