Talk:Monster Musume

Vandalism

Somebody needs to deal with this Gjhtru... 122.163.17.58 (talk) 19:17, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Title

@Sjones23: well, the original manga is not known as Everyday Life with Monster Girls in Japan, and the complete English official title is Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls. Honestly, I don't get why you reverted my edits.--Sakretsu (talk) 22:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Basically, "Everyday Life with Monster Girls" is a subtitle and almost all of the sources I've seen refer to it as simply "Monster Musume". Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:45, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Exactly what Sjones23 said. Note that on the Viz website, the "Everyday Life with Monster Girls" part is only used in the image, not in the URL or the individual volume titles. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 23:03, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

"Everyday Life with Monster Girls" is the official translation of the original title (Monster Musume no Iru Nichijō). Indeed it's a subtitle, but we have to add it somewhere in the article. I don't see any better solution than mine.--Sakretsu (talk) 23:15, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Subtitles are no used in article names unless it is for disambiguation purposes. Also, since the common name used by reliable English-language sources does not use the subtitle, excluding the subtitle is keeping with Wikipedia's article naming guidelines. An example of a similar case is Code Geass. —Farix (t | c) 01:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

In the official page of Sentai Filmworks/Hulu, is clearly state that the official english title is Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls. [[1]] --Marychan41 (talk) 05:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Farix, I didn't change the article name, I've added the subtitle in the incipit exactly as it has been done in several articles like Cross Ange, Code Geass, etc. I know, normally subtitles shouldn't be written even there, but in this case it is the English translation of the title: we usually write Monster Musume no Iru Nichijō (Japanese: モンスター娘のいる日常, Hepburn: Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō, lit. Everyday Life with Monster Girls), so what's the point in not applying this solution leaving the article name as it is?--Sakretsu (talk) 09:50, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

@Sjones23 and TheFarix: Sakretsu just completely removed the English translation of the title, then reverted me when I undid his WP:BOLD edit and asked me not to start and edit war. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 10:27, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Palmer, let's read the incipit together: Monster Musume (English official title), known in Japan as Everyday Life with Monster Girls (English subtitle?). Something's wrong.--Sakretsu (talk) 10:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

In USA, Seven Seas Entertainment is the official manga distributor, and Sentai Filmworks is the official Amine distributor. Both distributor states that the official english title is Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls.[2][3] They proves that Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls is the official english title.--Marychan41 (talk) 12:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Except they don't consistently use that title: at least Viz only seems to use it in imagery, but not in individual volume titles or URLs. Furthermore, Monster Musume is clearly given preference in the vast majority of English sources, making it the WP:COMMONNAME. Finally, Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls is redundant, since the Monster Musume part is part of the Japanese title which, in its fully translated form, makes up the second part of the title (Everyday Life with Monster Girls), so what you claim is the "official" English title essentially means Monster Girls: Everyday Life with Monster Girls. That alone makes it fairly clear that the part after the colon is merely a subtitle. G S Palmer^alt (main • talk) 16:59, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Sentai Filmworks just confirmed that Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls is the official english title. [4]--Marychan41 (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

The publisher of the anime - not the anime and manga, but just the anime - "confirmed" via an unreliable source that this is the title. That may be the case, but the "official title" (according to one of the publishers) should not trump WP:COMMONNAME, just as we use Alien 3 as opposed to ALIEN³. G S Palmer (talk •contribs) 15:59, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

The publisher of the manga Seven Seas Entertainment also states that the title is Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls. [5] An then, Sentai Filmworks just confirmed that Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls is the official english title.... in their official facebook. [6] Why the source is unreliable? Afterall, if wiki can mention the manga title as Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls, why anime title can't?--Marychan41 (talk) 12:46, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I moved the editing discussion in this Wiki talk page. [7]--Marychan41 (talk) 13:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Are you asking what the article name should be or how it should be listed in the lead sentence? The article name does not have the subtitle as per WP:SUBTITLE. So article title stays as Monster Musume. For the lead sentence, I suggest going with the Haganai scheme. The manga title does list the subtitle in the catalog part [8] as with Haganai [9] so you could insist on leaving the subtitle there. It is not listed in the catalog entry as the full title for each of the individual volumes. (e.g. Monster Musume Vol. 1, Release Date: 2013-10-15, etc.) but that's splitting hairs. The Japanese manga subtitle is Every day that there is a monster girls. although that is an Engrish translation. Having Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls as the common article name is redundant though, as with Heaven's Lost Property and Heaven's Lost Property: Sora no Otoshimono forte. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 14:20, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Lead section

@Sjones23, Marychan41, G S Palmer, AngusWOOF, Sakretsu, and TheFarix: Starting a new sub-section as this is less about the title of the article but is instead more about the wording of its lead section. I changed the lead sentence in order to conform to WP:ENGLISH, which states that "the title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language." It is clear that Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls is the official and common English name, and the one used by all English-language sources, as opposed to Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō. However, I was subsequently reverted by G S Palmer, whom argued that there is already "consensus for the [Japanese-language] version" (for the record, I disagree that consensus exists), hence my seeking of consensus here. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 13:03, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Honestly, this is what I wanted to do in the first place, when I added the full English title in the lead sentence without changing the article name. Both anime and manga here are known as Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls, so the infobox should be modified as well. I think we should just support Satellizer.--Sakretsu (talk) 13:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, the common English title is Monster Musume. As the article states, that is short for Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō, which translates as Everyday Life with Monster Girls. If you had bothered to read the previous section, you would have seen the reasoning behind the current situation of the article. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 13:28, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

@G S Palmer: Your argument honestly doesn't make any sense (and for the record I did "bother to read" the previous section). Yes, the "common English title" is Monster Musume - I'm not disputing that - but the full official English name is Monster Musume: Daily Life with Monster Girls, and NOT "Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō", which is the full Japanese name. Reliable sources Anime News Network and Crunchyroll all use 'Monster Musume: Daily Life with Monster Girls, and not "Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō".

Additionally, Monster Musume can't be short for Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō - how can something in English be "short for" something in Japanese? Rather, it's short for Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls. And you also have yet to explain why you randomly reverted my correction from Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō back to Monster Musume in the "manga" subsection. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 14:00, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry about the "manga" subsection revert: it was a mistake and I have fixed it. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but how is Monster Musume not short for something in Japanese? It may be romaji, but last time I checked, "musume" was not a recognized English word. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:19, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Nor do a few isolated uses make Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls the WP:COMMONAME, so it can't be used as the first instance of the title in the article. If you want, you can add "sometimes known as Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls after the other title, but do not use it to replace the first instance of Monster Musume in the Nihongo template. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:25, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Nor can it be added to the {{Nihongo}} template, since it isn't the literal translation of モンスター娘のいる日常 (Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō). G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:33, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Whether it's WP:COMMONNAME or not is irrelevant. I've made it clear in my first comment that I'm not disputing you on that. Monster Monpiece: Daily Life with Monster Girls is the full official English name, and thus, taken straight from WP:OFFICIALNAME, "It should always be provided early in an article's introduction, bolded at its first mention". It very well can be used as the first instance, and it's customary to do so - or please explain to me why "National Aeronautics and Space Administration", the official full name, is used at first instance at NASA, "Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways" is used at first instance at Interstate Highway System, and "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is used at first instance at United Kingdom? I could give you hundreds of other examples, but hopefully that will not be necessary.

Also, please back up your arguments with Wikipedia policies otherwise we'll just go around in circles. COMMONNAME is irrelevant here as that's about article titles, which I've made pretty clear is not the point of this discussion. And this will actually be my last comment for the day. Incredibly tired; I'll reply tomorrow. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 15:06, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Because "Monsutā" is not an English word but "Monster" is? How in the process of "shortening", as you put it, did "Monsuta" magically get changed to "Monster"? Doesn't it make more sense that Monster Musume is short for Monster Musume: Daily Life with Monster Girls instead? Besides that wasn't even my main argument - I was giving evidence that Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls is the full OFFICIAL English name that Monster Musume is derived from; thus All I'm trying to do here is modifying the lead section so that the full English name of the manga takes precedence over the full Japanese name, which is required by Wikipedia policy - thus substituting Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō with ''Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls. In case I'm being unclear (quite possible - I'm very tired) just compare the revisions I gave and what I'm trying to do should be clear. p.s. I won't be able to respond for ~8-10 hours - need to sleep now. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 14:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Palmer, we're talking about English titles here, not about languages. It doesn't matter if musume is Japanese. And by the way, Monster Musume is not the common English title as you stated. It's just short for the full title, which clearly can't be omitted in the lead sentence.--Sakretsu (talk) 14:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous argument. My reasoning has been laid out in the previous section. If you can't make sense of it, that's you problem, not mine: others seemed to think I conveyed it well enough to be understood. But in case you didn't read any of my previous comments, I'll summarize them here: Everyday Life with Monster Girls is a subtitle, and doesn't need to be included. Nor does it matter what the official title is: we don't use ALIEN³ as the first instance of the title in the article on the topic, but rather Alien 3, despite the former being the "official title". Nor should we worry about the "official title" here, but rather use that which is most common in sources. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 14:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is NOT about the page's title. Whether something is it's common name or not is irrevelant. Instead, Monster Musume: Daily Life with Monster Girls is the full official title - it may not be COMMONNAME, but it still must be cited in the lead as per WP:OFFICIALNAME. See also my three examples listed above (NASA, Interstate Highway System, United Kingdom). Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 15:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I though that you swore up and down that you were retiring from the conversation. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 15:22, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I beg to differ. The NY Times Best Seller List [10] uses Monster Musume as the common name. So it is treating Everyday Life with Monster Girls as a subtitle. Same with Barnes & Noble [11] How about changing the lead so it says: Monster Musume, subtitled in English and known in Japan as Everyday Life with Monster Girls (Japanese: モンスター娘のいる日常, Hepburn: Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō) AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 15:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That sounds like a decent compromise. Or if that doesn't sit right with others, we could always borrow an example from Nisekoi, and change it to something like "short for Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō (モンスター娘のいる日常, Everyday Life with Monster Girls), and released in English as Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 15:19, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

@AngusWOOF: Sorry but I fail to see how your proposal differs from mine, except for needlessly complicating matters and splitting the title. It's getting rather frustrating when I have to repeatedly point out that WP:COMMONNAME - a guideline about page titles - is of absolute no relevance here, in a discussion about the lead section. Monster Musume: Daily Life with Monster Girls is the full official English title which is why it must be shown in the introduction, in full.

So I'm sorry, but I'll have to oppose the compromise. I'll settle for something like "Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls (Japanese: モンスター娘のいる日常, Hepburn: Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō), commonly known as just Monster Musumein English, is a Japanese manga series written and illustrated by Okayado", but that's it. Good night. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 15:31, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

That won't work because it will mislead the reader into thinking that Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls is a literal translation of モンスター娘のいる日常 (Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō), which it is not. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 15:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Eh, guess I'll settle for AngusWOOF's compromise then. To be honest I'm not a huge fan of the wording or the splicing of the title, but I guess it's the best we can do without mucking up the translations. And I get to sleep! Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 16:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Since you have agreed to that wording, I have made the necessary changes. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Again "subtitled in English and known in Japan as Everyday Life with Monster Girls" is wrong, and if we just say "subtitled in English", it doesn't explain why the English subtitle is followed by Japanese. Besides, the infobox animanga still doesn't make any sense with that Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls only under Manga.
Just to point out, it's not like because of "Monster Musume" the standard lead sentence becomes incomprehensible (e.g Shimoneta doesn't start with Shimoneta: A Boring World Where the Concept of Dirty Jokes Doesn’t Exist (下ネタという概念が存在しない退屈な世界, Shimoneta to Iu Gainen ga Sonzai Shinai Taikutsu na Sekai, lit. "A Boring World Where the Concept of Dirty Jokes Doesn’t Exist")… It would be redundant).--Sakretsu (talk) 17:38, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I think the problem here is that Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō translates directly to Everyday Life with Monster Girls in Japanese, omitting the Monster Musume prefix. Make no mistake, much of the counterarguments on "common names" and "subtitles" were basically flat out wrong, but the compromise was reached as it (as of now) is the only wording that respects both the full English name (albeit in a roundabout way) and the meaning of the original Japanese. It could certainly be improved. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 01:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

How is the Japanese title wrong? モンスター娘のいる日常 is the title for the manga and the anime. Is there another? Do they use the abbreviated title モンスター娘? As for the infobox, as I posted before, you can either include the subtitle or blank it out. There are sources I've listed in previous discussions that support either way. Shimoneta isn't a developed case yet as the light novels have not been published, so it is dependent on just the anime title which the English Funimation version has the redundancy issue. We can talk about that on that talk page. 02:20, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Angus, in my humble opinion the following lead sentence would be better (using Nihongo2):
Monster Musume, subtitled in English Everyday Life with Monster Girls (which is the official translation of the Japanese title: モンスター娘のいる日常 Hepburn: Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō), is a Japanese manga series written and illustrated by Okayado.
At least we wouldn't say that the series is known in Japan as "Everyday Life with Monster Girls", which is not true.--Sakretsu (talk) 12:13, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

it would be better to mention the full title Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls in a phase. It would give more clear idea to the reader; it would also be more easier for google search. --Marychan41 (talk) 15:11, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I can't see any way that it would make this page more accessible to search engines. Please elaborate. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 16:10, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we go back to: " Monster Musume, short for Monsutā Musume no Iru Nichijō (モンスター娘のいる日常, Everyday Life with Monster Girls) " and then add "It was released in English with the title Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls? Google search already puts the Wikipedia page second in the search results. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 16:29, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it would be an acceptable idea. Thank you! --Marychan41 (talk) 01:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry but no thanks. While it is true that splitting the title as currently done isn't ideal, it does avoid redundancy (as opposed to the new proposed version which mentions "Monster Musume" and "Daily Life with Monster Girls" twice). Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 07:11, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it isn't redundancy at all. "Monster Musume" is the common used name. "Daily Life with Monster Girls" is the literal translation title. "Monster Musume: Everyday Life with Monster Girls" is the official English title that are used by the official Manga/Amine distributor in English countries. The nature of the titles are different. --Marychan41 (talk) 13:24, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Author's other works in "see also" section

People have been reverting this back and forth for a while now, so I figured I'd share my 2 cents here and get a discussion going. Personally, I think a link to the author's other work is useful and should be included in the article. I imagine when readers look at a page like this one many of them will be saying "I like this manga, has the author written anything else like it?" That information should be easily accessible without needing to manually search the author's name and sift through search results to see if anything else comes up. So what's the best way to do this? I can think of four ways: First, you can create a page for the author (example) that's linked in the infobox that lists all of their work. However, not all authors are considered notable enough to warrant their own pages, so this solution may not be appropriate here. Second, you could create a "works by" template (example) and place it at the bottom of the page. Third, you could mention it in the article header: "Monmusu is a Japanese manga series written and illustrated by Okayado (also known for writing/illustrating 12 Beast)." And finally, you could do what the IP editor was doing and just create a "see also" link between the author's two pages. Personally, I don't care which of these methods is used, but I do think the information should be included in some form. Since some of the editors here are opposed to the "see also" method, I'd like to hear your input. What is the best way to link readers to the author's other work(s) in a situation like this? CurlyWi (talk) 07:05, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't been involved in the edit war, but I happen to think that including this in the "see also" section would be useful. As a reader, I know that I would want to see it there. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 09:55, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Normally other works by the author need not be listed under each of the author's works as "See also". However, if the author has a sizable number of works, (e.g. Rumiko Takahashi) the nav boxes are useful to organize that. The problem with the original edit is that it only listed the title without much context. On the 12 Beast article, I added a review comment where the reviewer related the two works, at least to justify why someone would want to look for other works. If "Oyakado" redirects to Monster Musume, the See also can be there. If the wiki article has more strong connections to previous works, (e.g. Fairy Tail and Rave Master) then the See also would not be needed WP:NOTSEEALSO. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 17:56, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

I also support AngusWOOF's reasoning. If a manga article has connections to previous works by the same author, we should not need a WP:SEEALSO section. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:21, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

@AngusWOOF I agree that normally a "see also" link between works by the same author is not needed, but this is a special case. Normally an author who has written multiple notable works would be considered notable enough to have their own article, and that article would link the reader to the author's other works. However, in this situation, we have an author with two notable works, but the author himself isn't notable enough to have his own article, so we don't have that link between works available. WP:SEEALSO states the section is for linking to related (including indirectly/tangentially related) articles that are not already linked in the article's body or its navigation boxes. 12 Beast is definitely related since it is another manga featuring monster girls by the same author, and it isn't linked anywhere else in the article, so the "see also" is in fact following WP:SEEALSO and isn't violating WP:NOTSEEALSO. Now again, as I said in my first post, if you just mentioned and linked 12 Beast somewhere else in the article then yes, the "see also" would be unneeded. However, since the article does not currently do this, the "see also" seems like a perfectly valid inclusion, and I'm not sure why some editors are so adamant about removing it. CurlyWi (talk) 10:33, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Production section

Interview: Okayado, The Father of Monster Musume could be useful in writing a production section for this article. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 23:12, 7 September 2016 (UTC)