Talk:Monsignor Farrell High School

Untitled

WTF

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE REST OF THE ARTICLE? A BRIEF INTRO, AND THEN SOME CRAP ABOUT THE BAND?????? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.119.92.198 (talk) 04:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Discipline

Strict discipline — up to and including corporal punishment — prevails, a fact well known throughout Staten Island.

Not that I've ever heard. Took it out. --User:Jenmoa 02:37, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I go there there is no corpral punishment--72.89.80.135 (talk) 04:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

I went there starting in 1989 and there was no corporal punishment at that time. I would expect such punishment more likely then than now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.192.232.51 (talk) 18:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Best high schools in the country?

That line seems pretty biased.

-Bizznot 02:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The whole article seems pretty biased. It reads like the pamphlet they give out to 8th graders instead of being encyclopedic. 68.238.225.127 12:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Did you read the article? US News and World Report reported it as one of the 100 best schools in the country. The NY Daily News states it is one of the best schools in NY. So it is notable and the article is just stating what 2 reputable sources are claiming. Callelinea 13:46, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Yes, I did read the article, and you should check the history. I did not add the notice about deletion. I did find the original article about it being a super school. First off the article is 8 years old now. But still a quick search of the schools that did have the article don't have it mentioned so promintely. Not only that but if you did check the Farrell website it reads almost exactly like the opening here. Here's the link http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/990118/archive_000090_4.htm

And I'll remove the one citiation needed.68.238.225.127 17:37, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

thats weird they didnt give me a pamphlet --72.89.80.135 (talk) 04:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Jim Albus

How is it possible that Jim Albus, born 1940, attended a high school established in 1961? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.192.232.51 (talk) 18:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Who was Monsignior Farrell?

On almost every Catholic high school website on Staten Island, I never see any information about the school's namesake. Who was Countess Moore? Who was Monsignior Farrell? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.243.68 (talk) 17:03, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Admissions Statistics

The admission stats don't add up. It's claimed the 200-250 students are accepted each year, but current enrollment is 1,200. That means an average of 300 students are accepted each year. And that assumes that all students accepted choose to attend. The admission rate has to be higher to support the current enrollment figure. Either the enrollment figure needs to be corrected, or there needs to be additional evidence that there are only 200-250 students accepted each year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.90.154.18 (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

"Actor who starred in 'The Graduate' in 2002" when The Graduate came out in 1967...??

How is this possible? The person this is attributed to, John Lavelle, wasn't even born until 1981. I'm sorry, I didn't realize someone who won't be born for another 14 years can star in a movie.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.19.36.24 (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

It was a 2002 Broadway adaptation, not the original film. I'll tweak the entry. Meters (talk) 02:31, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 October 2016

Please include Impractical Jokers as famous alumni. 2601:1C0:6A00:5320:F035:9B32:202C:E4A4 (talk) 09:36, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 10:50, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

And we have no articles about these individual people. The people are the alumni, but the group is all that appears notable (to wikipedia standards) at this time. So neither the group nor the people are "notable alumni". DMacks (talk) 16:30, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Alumni: The Tenderloins and Impractical Jokers

The comedy troupe may be notable, and the show may be notable, but neither the troupe nor the show can be considered an alumnus. The individuals who are in the troupe and the show may have attended the school, but they are not considered notable alumni simply because they are in The Tenderloins and in Impractical Jokers. Each member must be individually notable (generally shown by having a reliably sourced individual wikiarticle) and have a reliable source showing that he attended the school before he can be added to the alumni list. Meters (talk) 02:28, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Meters, In a list of notable alumni, most of the entries will be individual alumni, but there is no policy that prohibits groups of alumni. I've seen dozens of entries -- mostly for musical groups -- that were formed at a particular high school, college or university that is listed under notable alumni. See The Shirelles at Passaic High School or Blues Traveler at Princeton High School as just a handful of examples that I can easily pull off the top of my head, and I have added neither of these entries which have been in these articles for years. The Tenderloins were formed at the school, all are alumni of the school and their attendance is backed by strong reliable sourcing.

Given the evidence of group entries in lists of alumni in other articles, it would appear that the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence based on Wikipedia policy that such entries must be deleted. Alansohn (talk) 04:24, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Whether something is done in other articles is not the point. See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. I could just as easily go to those articles you list above and remove the entries, citing the removal from this article as justification. I have seen such groups removed from many school articles' alumni lists. We edit by consensus. The consensus on this article is clear (note the multiple removals of this entry form the alumni list, the protection of the article because of this issue, and the response to the above semi-ptoected edit request on this issue.)

On the issue as a whole, alumni are people. A musical group, or a theatre troupe, or a sports team, or any other group of students from the school is not an alumnus. Alumni lists are for individuals, and each individual listed must be individually notable.

Your repeated claim that this is a WP:PRESERVE issue [1] [2] is incorrect. The entry is being removed because the entity simply does not meet the list's inclusion criteria of being a notable alumnus. That's not something that can be fixed, and thus WP:PRESERVE cannot apply. The group was removed because it is not an alumnus, and if the individual members were removed in prior edits (I can't remember if it that has happened in this article but it certainly has in other articles) they were removed because they have not been shown to be notable. Per WP:ALUMNI all entries must be notable. Per WP:NOTINHERITED being a member of a notable group is not sufficient to show that that individual is notable. Normally notability for list inclusion purposes is shown by having a wikiarticle, and a redirect to a group article does not cut it.

I will link to this thread from the Schools Project page so other interested editors will see this. Meters (talk) 05:19, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

By WP:LISTBIO, they should not individually be listed unless they are individually notable. One obvious test is that none appear to have their own WP article (merely redirects to the group or TV program). By WP:NOTINHERITED, being a member of a notable group or involved with something else notable is not sufficient for individual notability. If it sounds like I'm just parrotting Meters, that's because we are both just parrotting the linked policies/guidelines. According to the group's aricle, the group was founded in 2000 and involves people who were born in 1976. It says they went to high school together, but it does not say that the group formed as such while they were in high school, and their age of ~24 at founding makes it unlikely they would be. Therefore, "the group" does not have any cited or obvious connection to the school, so it shouldn't be listed either. This is actually in contrast to The Shirelles case, since their formation actually is related to the school (not even just by chronological coincidence). DMacks (talk) 05:33, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Your narrow interpretation that "Notable alumni" can only mean a list of individuals is your own idiosyncratic bias, entirely unsupported by any shred of policy. Of course, you can threaten to take your edit war elsewhere, but you'd just be imposing your baseless stance and disrupting longstanding consensus in these other articles.

"Notable alumni" means people who have attended the school, with no restriction on groups. WP:ALUMNI is an interesting essay, but even that doesn't take a stance one way or another. WP:LISTBIO simply takes no stance that prohibits a group.

The group is notable, you can't possibly deny that. The members of the group all attended the school, graduating together in the same year and that information is backed by reliable and verifiable sources. They haven't "inherited" anything, as they are notable as a group of alumni of the school. All you've done is stamped your feet and insist that WP:IDONTLIKEIT based on a specious misinterpretation of an essay. By contrast, WP:PRESERVE is policy and it says that encyclopedic content should be preserved in the article, where it belongs, while your sole stance is that it must be deleted. If you want to make a policy-based argument, you've got to find a policy that supports the claim. An essay is worthless for this purpose. Alansohn (talk) 05:39, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

• I would say, if a group is restricted to alumni of a school, and if the group has a Wikipedia article, it qualifies to be listed in the "Alumni" (or "Notable alumni") of the school's Wikipedia article. -- Softlavender (talk) 06:53, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Alansohn, no one is arguing that the group is not notable. But that does not make the members of the group notable. You say '"Notable alumni" means people who have attended the school' but that's not correct. It means "notable people who have attended the school." Being a member of a notable group does not necessarily mean the members are individually notable. Meters (talk) 00:21, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Agree complete with Meters. As for Softlavender's argument, I could weakly (very weakly) see your point. However, performance groups do not generally disbanded if one member leaves. Generally, that person is replaced. Then what? Do we then remove this group from this notable list and start this kerfuffle all over again? What we have here is a notable group of non notable people that all happen to have a connection to this school. The notability of the group endures; the non-notability of its members may or may not endure. The connection to the school may or may not endure. If any of these dudes achieve individual notability, by all means add them. Until that happens, no. John from Idegon (talk) 01:24, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

If there is a notable group that reliable sources show has a very strong connection to the school (for example, formed by students, while they were at the school, and as a result of being at the school) then I can see mentioning the group in an article, but still not in the alumni section. A musical group that formed and started doing gigs as part of their school music program (and yes, I can give an example of a high school school music program where students form groups and do gigs outside of school as part of the music curriculum) probably merits mention. That still wouldn't make the members notable though. A group that was formed outside of school would be less likely to merit inclusion, and a group didn't form until after the students had graduated or left the school is not connected to the school. The group that led to this discussion falls into the latter category. The Tenderloins was formed years after the students graduated (they were about 23 or 24) and Impractical Jokers didn't start until 10 years after that. Meters (talk) 05:35, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

The Tenderloins, either as a group or bullet points for each member, should be included in the notable alumni list.

• It been argued that each member must be individually notable (citing WP:ALUMNI) where being individually notable has been asserted to mean having their own page (citing WP:NOTINHERITED)
  • However in talking about required citations for notable alumni entries WP:ALUMNI states When alumni have their own articles in mainspace, it is not necessary for their notability to be referenced - By specifically addressing the cases where alumni do have their own article, it logically implies that there must be other cases notable alumni do not have their own articles and can still be included (as long as their notability is referenced).
  • I'm assuming the editors citing WP:NOTINHERITED are unfamiliar with the show Impractical Jokers, because it clearly does not apply in this case. WP:NOTINHERITED says four of the notability guidelines, for creative professions, books, films and music, do allow for inherited notability in certain circumstances. I can assure you this is one of those circumstances, the four alumni we are talking about here are not "merely associated" with the show, they are central to everything about it.
• It has been argued that "the group" does not have any cited or obvious connection to the school, so it shouldn't be listed either.
  • It's superficially obvious that when four people end up creating something together, the fact that they all went to the same school at the exact same time is not likely to be a coincidence.
  • They have returned to the school multiple times in the context of their shows and even filmed segments there.
• It has been asserted that there is consensus that they do not belong in the notable alumni list. The consensus on this article is clear (note the multiple removals of this entry form the alumni list, the protection of the article because of this issue, and the response to the above semi-ptoected edit request on this issue.)
  • There is nothing even close to consensus for the position that they do not belong. In fact looking at the edit history it's clear that it's closer to a consensus that they do belong. As far as I can tell they were part of the page for years with no issue until January 2016 when they were removed by one of the editors in this discussion. Ever since then the Tenderloin members have been good faith re-added over and over again by different editors each time, only to be quickly removed by one of the three or so editors who clearly feel strongly that they do not belong. Three editors do not constitute a consensus just because they are the most vocal and persistent.

Because of the points I and others have laid out above as well as the clear majority preference(based on the edit history) that they be included, I am re-adding them to the page once again based on the well cited Alansohn edit a couple months ago. (PS If anyone happens to be curious/suspicious about why a brand new account is writing all this: it's because I happened to be browsing wikipedia, got to the tenderloins and then to this page and was really surprised to see them missing from the list. I was going to quickly add them before I realized that had already been done dozens of times. And now I'm here.) TonyGunk (talk) 07:30, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for joining us. There's no deadline on getting content done, and this specific issue is long-running, involving many editors on multiple talkpages and policies/guidelines, and is obviously contentious. I've undone your edit because even you yourself state that it's not a clear consensus. While you are welcome to make your own position known and agree/disagree with others' stances, I don't think you are yet experienced enough to evaluate and make a conclusion of the discussion itself. For example, discussions and consensus are not about numbers, but rely on strength of argument based on site standards. You make a statement that notability can be inherited in some cases, but that doesn't be it is in this specific case. And it's not supported strongly by WP:CREATIVE, the underlying exception you seem to be using. But instead there is no exception for WP:ENTERTAINER, which seems at least as good if not better fit for these people. See also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Schools/Archive_24#Groups_of_students_as_alumni_.28thread_moved_from_Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Schools.2FArticle_guidelines, where the discussion seems to lean against inclusion. DMacks (talk) 07:53, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Fine there is no consensus (although if it has to unanimous I cannot imagine anything happening beyond fillibustering until the other side decides they don't actually care that much about a high school notable alumni section. Believe me I'm close already). But the page has to stay one way or another while there is still no consensus. Why exactly should it stay the way you prefer? Because no one obviously finds the other sides argument compelling, otherwise it wouldn't be contentious. And my side clearly has the numbers even if they aren't posting here, which seems to have been conveniently ignored until now. If you say "because the status quo is for them to be missing" I would say "no it isn't there has been no status quo for over a year because it keeps getting readded and removed again because it's so plainly obvious to third party observers that it belongs". The last time there was a real status quo was before January 2016, and they existed on the page until then. So again, why should it stay the way you want instead of the way I and many otherswant? You know someone is going to independently come along in a week or two and add them again anyway.

Here's a question: if I just go add stub articles for each of them and then add them individually are you then going to start lobbying for those stubs to be deleted? I think it'd be pointless because their articles would all be very similar to the tenderloins article and it'd be annoying clicking through five or six different articles all with 90% overlap, but from a strictly theoretical perspective I'm confident they'd individually meet notability guidelines.

Also follow up question: Are you familiar with the show at all? Meaning seen an episode or two. I get the strong feeling you all haven't and thus don't understand why it's so plainly obvious they belong here to people who have. Someone said earlier "what if one of the group leaves and they replace him with another person not from the school?" While I can't predict the future and money makes people try anything, it'd be very surprising if they did that. The entire premise of the show (they start every episode with this line) is "four lifelong friends who compete to embarrass each other". Sticking in another comedian would probably ruin the appeal of the show. I think you all are imagining them being most analogous to some notable but minor band where who exactly the drummer is doesn't matter significantly as long as they are competent. The guys here are not interchangeable and that's not just my opinion as a fan but is backed up in their own interviews and also in critical reviews. TonyGunk (talk) 09:20, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

References

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Principal

The school's web site lists the principal as Edmund Whalen on both the principal's message https://www.msgrfarrellhs.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=319370&type=d and the Administration Department staff listing https://www.msgrfarrellhs.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=65182&type=d . If the school page is wrong then provide a reliable source. I've added a source for this to the article, and I will treat any more unsourced claims that the principal has changed as vandalism. Meters (talk) 03:18, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Detailed rationales for additional content

@John from Idegon: Sorry I tried to do more than what you could accept from quick Edit Summaries. I'm also sorry if this explanation now errs on the long side! – but let's try this one step at a time, and see if we can narrow down the disagreements over the next couple of days.

Rather than leave the article's biographical summary of Monsignor Joseph Farrell totally unreferenced, I added a citation to the best biographical sketch that I could find – written by the school, acceptable under WP:SELFPUB, and archived on an old webpage. We can append a "better source needed" tag if you like, but surely an archival school source is better than nothing. Please, I hope you don't object to this particular improvement?

Then from the same school source, plus a recent newspaper reference that was already in the article, I added a list of the school's eight Principals. Here's the relevant full paragraph (about school articles) from the WP:LISTPEOPLE standard, with my own underlining added for emphasis:

For instance, articles about schools often include (or link to) a list of notable alumni/alumnae, but such lists are not intended to contain everyone who attended the school. Editors who would like to be identified as an alumnus/alumna should instead use the categories intended for this purpose, e.g. Category:Wikipedians by alma mater. On the other hand, a list within an article of past school presidents, headmasters or headmistresses can contain the names of all the people who held this post, not just those who are independently notable.

So, for "articles about schools", naming the complete historical sequence of Principals is indeed acceptable by WP as appropriate encyclopedic content. Furthermore, Farrell High School's leadership transition from clergy to laity after 58 years is itself notable (4th sentence of the cited newspaper article), so I really think it should be acknowledged in our encyclopedia article about the school. I take your style point about generally excluding MOS:CREDENTIALS from people's names, and I'll be more alert about this in the future. Please, could you live with a brief section like this:

Principals

The following individuals have served as principal of the school, from founding to present. The first seven were senior clergy. Then after 58 years, in 2019 Lawrence Musanti became the first principal appointed from the laity, and his predecessor Edmund Whalen praised the shift as "the future of the Church".

1. John J. Considine (1961–1965)
2. William J. Barnes (1965–1977)
3. Peter G. Finn (1977–1983)
4. Thomas J. Bergin (1983–1992)
5. Emmet R. Nevin (1992–2002)
6. John N. Paddack (2002–2010)
7. Edmund J. Whalen (2010–2019)
8. Lawrence Musanti (2019– )

References

Next, following the "Notable alumni" section, where I certainly agree that blue-linked notability is an appropriate criterion, I'd please like to add a similar (much shorter) section for "Notable faculty" – or alternatively, broaden our existing section header to become "Notable alumni and faculty". After all, schools aren't only about their students, and many school WP articles (and schools themselves) rightly make a point of highlighting both their notable students and faculty. Any strong reason why this article should avoid any mention of the notable "Founding Father of Farrell Basketball", Warren Fenley? Would you be more comfortable with a separate "Notable faculty" section, or a broader "Notable alumni and faculty" section, or some other place in the article?

Notable faculty

• Warren Fenley (1922–2009), basketball player for the first Boston Celtics, head coach for the first Farrell Lions

References

Finally, please, I hope there's nothing objectionable about my adding the long-overdue info & ref about alumnus James Oddo as Borough President, or my minor edits that corrected inconsistent formats (WP:DATEUNIFY) and expanded incomplete citations and trimmed redundant blurbs & wikilinks following the WP:DUPLINK guideline. I can itemize & explain these in smaller chunks if helpful. Did you find something controversial in these edits, or am I right in guessing that you reverted them mostly for the sake of reverting the larger edit that added the Principals?

I've never set foot in Farrell High School, and I don't know any of the people mentioned – no conflict of interest here – but clearly the article is thin on significant content, and seriously out of WP:PROPORTION for an encyclopedic summary of a notable school, and deserves better than just an infobox plus 2 unsourced boilerplate sentences and 15 alumni blurbs. I prefer to add snippets of significant info wherever it's encyclopedically appropriate, though I realize my brief Edit Summaries don't always do justice to the edits in question, and I agree that it's important to exclude nonsense. Thanks very much for your patience & consideration. —173.68.139.31 (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2019 (UTC)