Talk:Money Management International

Discussion

This is the first page I've ever created from scratch. I'm sure I screwed up every way possible. Please help make it better.

MMI is a strange and elusive outfit whose Google presence raised all sorts of alarms when I tried looking it up. Most everything on the first few results pages originates from the company itself or one of its billion affiliates, or else looks highly dubious -- as if very careful search-engine PR were being managed by a deft flak. Very hard to learn anything unbiased about these folks, even though they operate in half the country and manage a half billion dollars in debt. I suspect this is not just a random state of affairs, either.

And no Wikipedia entry. That really surprised me. You have a controversial not-for-profit paying its CEO a half-million a year, doing business with the poorest of the poor -- a firm that really caters to the desperate -- charging them steep fees when they're broke already, all sorts of really intriguing shadiness here and yet, you have to spend long minutes if you want to find that CA Desist and Refrain Order...

Doesn't seem right. Or plausible. There's goofiness afoot.

Makes you expect the Wiki entry to vanish real fast, or get vandalized. I would say MMI stays quite abreast of how it Googles. To that end I could use any sort of help watching the page & also balancing, as I fear it comes off negatively biased in this initial draft; took a long time finding anything bad about the company, because it's all buried -- and then, once you start to find it it just pours out; a picture emerges (who is this Terry M. Blaney? what game was he playing?) -- so I wanted to make sure to lock all that down in one place, to start out. Vigilance is welcome. Censure is welcome. Debate, chastisement.

Bring it.

Paleoriffic (talk) 05:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Looks like a notable topic to me. A couple of handfuls of good hits show up in Google Books too. Good effort in properly citing the article, Paleoriffic.--❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 05:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Check this out: "Prior to the new law, Money Management International and its family of Consumer Credit Counseling Services agencies had a good track record of providing consumers nationwide with financial education and credit counseling." The New Bankruptcy By Stephen Elias... seems like it's going to go on to say something juicy but Google Books cuts off the next page for me.--❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 13:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

MMI was involved in lobbying lawmakers when the 2005 bankruptcy law was being designed. The law actually requires credit counseling prior to a bankruptcy; and guess who's a certified provider of this kind of federally mandated counseling? Yes: a company created by and beholden to consumer credit issuers, a company whose major source of revenue comes from Debt Management Plans that it recommends as an alternative to bankruptcy. This is something like requiring pre-abortion counseling at a Catholic church.

Paleoriffic (talk) 15:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

To quote from the GAO report I came across (listed as a reference in the article):

“ ...the value of the counseling requirement is not clear. The counseling was intended to help consumers make informed choices about bankruptcy and its alternatives. Yet anecdotal evidence suggests that by the time most clients receive the counseling, their financial situations are dire, leaving them with no viable alternative to bankruptcy. As a result, the requirement may often serve more as an administrative obstacle than as a timely presentation of meaningful options. Because no mechanism currently exists to track the outcomes of the counseling, policymakers and program managers are unable to fully assess how well the requirement is serving its intended purpose. ”

--❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 16:05, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Some notable things I've garnered from browsing the 990 forms: in 2006 on p. 21 they claim that only 11% of people signed up for debt management, in 2005 on p. 22 they claim it was 21%, 2004 p.21 20%, 2003 p. 31 18%-20%, 2002 p.30 18%.

Also, there was a "Ken Scott" who was the contact on press releases in the late 90's - early 2000's, and in 2005 and 2006 a "Ken Scott Communications" is listed as the highest-paid contractor with $750K in 05 and $350K in 06.--❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 22:47, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

RE: separate citation for the issue of executive compensation. The original source for that was the KHOU news broadcast. I've pulled the Special Olympics 990 for comparison. Its CEO earns 325K in straight salary, comparable to the Hand's, but deferred comp and other benefits of only 51K. Net income is about 2/3 of Hand's including these things. The 990 is here: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2006/520/889/2006-520889518-03b58184-9.pdf but I'm not sure how or whether to cite it directly.

Paleoriffic (talk) 15:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

That actually would seem to contradict what the KHOU broadcast is claiming; that's the same ratio as someone making 60K annually versus 40K - it's pretty feasible for two different people doing the same job. Maybe note that "substantially different" is KHOU's opinion, but mention the real numbers?

The bio on the MMI web site said that Hand was the chief of an Exxon division, and my impression is that those sort of people usually make seven figures in the private sector, so I wonder if this does actually represent standard nonprofit-level CEO compensation. (Which certainly isn't to say that it should be that way, nor that MMI isn't doing shady things in general.)--❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 16:05, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Old Press Releases and Texas Secretary of State Registration Dates

Some press releases aren't listed in the index of the http://www.cccsintl.org/ - Consumer Credit Counseling Service of the Gulf Coast Area, Inc. web site but they're visible through Google:

Date	Press Release	Notes
March 19, 1998	link, archive
July 1, 1998	link, archive
Nov. 12, 1999	link, archive
Nov. 19, 1999	link, archive
July 11, 2000	link, archive
Sept. 1, 2000	link, archive
Nov. 10, 2000	link, archive	First mention of MMI
April 10, 2002	link, archive
2004?	link, archive	"since 1981"
December 21, 2006	link, archive	"since 1958"

Organization	Tax ID	State of Formation	SOS Registration Date	Comptroller Page
MONEY MANAGEMENT INTERNATIONAL, INC	15418377410		November 8, 2002	link, archive
MONEY MANAGEMENT INTERNATIONAL FINANCIAL EDUCATION	17606917023		August 14, 2001	link, archive
MONEY MANAGEMENT BY MAIL INC	32014034402	VA	May 21, 1997	link, archive
CONSUMER CREDIT COUNSELING SER OF HOUS	30003600431	TX	April 28, 1978	link, archive

I don't know for certain if that last record "CONSUMER CREDIT COUNSELING SER OF HOUS" has anything to do with MMI but it seemed like it might correspond to "Consumer Credit Counseling Service of Houston and the Gulf Coast Area, Inc." --❨Ṩtruthious ℬandersnatch❩ 19:28, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Some possible additions for MMI's History

MMI has completed 17 mergers since its inception, which have allowed MMI to become the nation’s largest full-service credit and debt counseling and education agency. Source: [3] Additional source: [4]

The following consumer credit counseling organizations have merged with MMI since its inception, in chronological order:

• CCCS of the Gulf Coast, August 31, 2000
• CCCS of the Southwest, June 30, 2001 Source: [5]
• CCCS of Chicago, December 31, 2001
• CCCS of Virginia, June30, 2002 Source: [6]
• CCCS of Lehigh Valley, September 30, 2002
• CCCS of Baton Rouge, October 31, 2002
• CCCS of Denver, April 25, 2003
• CCCS of San Diego, July 1, 2003 Source: [7]
• CCCS of the East Bay, September 17, 2003
• CCCS of Maine, October 31, 2003
• CCCS of Central New Jersey, November 30, 2003
• CCCS of South Jersey, March 1, 2004
• CCCS of Mid-Oregon, August 10, 2004
• CCCS of Southern New England, January 31, 2005
• CCCS of Fort Worth, June 30, 2005
• CCCS of Washington, D.C., June 30, 2005
• CCCS of Spokane, June 30, 2005
• CCCS of Racine, WI, May 1, 2008
• CCCS of Linn-Benton, Oregon, June 30, 2008
• CCCS of Greater Alaska, January 1, 2012

TanishaWarner (talk) 20:08, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

MMI CEO claimed they were committed to “providing our clients and community with the highest quality non-profit counseling services and educational resources," Source [8]

In 2005, MMI was selected by a federal bankruptcy court to assume control of approximately 50,000 debt management plans previously managed by AmeriDebt. Source: [9]

NFCC member agencies (often named CCCS) annually help more than two million consumers through 911 community-based offices. All NFCC member agencies provide budget and debt counseling, and administer Debt Management Plans (DMPs) for those overwhelmed by debts that they are unable to repay without the help of the creditors they owe. Most agencies also provide housing counseling services, as well as other money and credit services. Source: The Coast Guard Mutual Assistance program. [10] Additional source: [11]

MMI is recognized by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) as a trusted housing counseling agency. Source: [12] Additional source: [13]

John Anthony Hartman (talk) 23:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

MMI also engages the community through education by recruiting and training Certified Money Management Volunteers (CMMV) from local businesses and community service organizations to teach the importance of financial responsibility. source:[14]

MMI’s free education workshops are available to schools, where financial responsibility is taught in a classroom environment from kindergarten through college, as well as community organizations, such as churches, businesses and senior centers. source: [15] source: [16]. In 2007, MMI provided more than 480,000 free financial educational programs, helping consumers get out of the red and into the black. source: [17]

John Anthony Hartman (talk) 19:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

There are two “Market Positions” included in the article. The first one should be removed, as the information is available within other areas of the article.

TanishaWarner (talk) 20:15, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Additions to the history section: Not long after the credit card was first introduced, a need for consumer financial education and counseling was identified. In the early 1950s and ‘60s, groups of volunteers in various parts of the country joined together to provide free financial services to the general public.

As the industry expanded over the years, it became clear that consumers wanted the convenience of telephone and Internet counseling, and creditors wanted a high-tech solution to disbursing funds and administering Debt Management Plans, but the expense and effort required to establish a national telephone center and develop the necessary technology was judged too great for any one agency to undertake. In 1997, six successful CCCS organizations with more than 100 years of combined service to consumers and their communities, aligned to form Money Management by Mail. Money Management by Mail was formed as a tax-exempt organization under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code in response to changing needs of both consumers and creditors. These founding members decided to undertake the task of building the technology necessary to efficiently serve those in need of credit counseling.

In 2000, Money Management by Mail reorganized with the merger of CCCS of the Gulf Coast, one of the original alliance partners. In 2003, Money Management by Mail was renamed Money Management International (MMI) to better represent its capabilities. Over the years, MMI strengthened its in-person counseling capacity and community educational initiatives by merging or joining forces with additional CCCS agencies. These mergers elevated MMI to the position of the nation’s largest full-service credit counseling organization. The mergers have benefited not only the MMI organization and the local CCCS agencies, but also consumers in general, its clients and the local communities. With a larger geographic area, MMI has been able to expand its reach and provide consumers with enhanced customer service and expanded financial education resources. By providing the local CCCS agencies with centralized technological, administrative, and corporate support, the local agencies have been able to focus on expanding local community education and delivering in-person credit counseling.

Today, MMI is an industry leader in financial education, counseling, technology, industry association, growth, creditor relations, and program development. The MMI team has nearly 1,500 full-time employees throughout the United States. MMI is headquartered in Houston and has major contact centers in Houston, Ft. Worth, Denver, Phoenix, Baton Rouge, LA, and Warwick, RI. In addition to providing services nationwide by phone and Internet, MMI currently provides counseling and financial education to clients from 119 branch offices throughout the country. MMI is a member of and has a leadership role in the National Foundation for Credit Counseling (NFCC) and the Association of Independent Consumer Credit Counseling Agencies (AICCCA). MMI is accredited by the Council on Accreditation (COA). TanishaWarner (talk) 21:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC) The statement in the history section that reads "(i.e., a group representing the creditors themselves)" is incorrect opinion and not supported by any reference material.

TanishaWarner (talk) 21:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

References

Founding dates

Removed the variation of dates for the actual date the organization was founded. The first date listed includes the source – the Texas Comptroller website clearly lists the date the organization was founded in 1997. TanishaWarner (talk) 21:18, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

It does not make any sense to ignore what the organization itself actually said in its own press releases and arbitrarily pick one of three different dates related to records of paperwork being filed with the Texas Secretary of State... and out of those three pick the record that is not associated with "Money Management International" but instead the "Money Management By Mail" one. That would basically be Wikipedia editors picking whatever we feel like to list as the founding date rather than documenting the information that's available.

It actually makes sense to me that there would be uncertainty over this because at this point MMI seems to be an agglomeration of many different, originally-independent organizations that has had a huge amount of money rapidly injected into it via lobbying that got a provision of federal law custom-created to furnish the overall industry with a massive increase in customers and revenue.

The organization itself has been confused about its own founding date over the years and there is no reason to elide that fact, much less delete any reference to it from the article. Even if at this point MMI's PR department were to come out with a new "official" founding date I would not consider that good reason to remove what we've got here since it's more representative of reality and well-referenced.

Hence I've reverted TanishaWarner's change to the founding date info. It might make sense to just say "2nd half of the twentieth century" or something in the infobox and refer to a new article section that discusses all these dates. But we shouldn't be arbitrarily picking a date for the sake of brevity and simplify the issue for aesthetic reasons. --▸∮truthious ᛔandersnatch◂ 17:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Market Position

There are two Market Position sections. Combined the information to one section. TanishaWarner (talk) 18:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Controversy

This section should be updated to reflect new activity around the issues:

The KHOU story is not supported by an active reference. The statement appears to be opinion and based on unsupported hearsay.

In March, 2006, the Better Business Bureau of Metropolitan Houston did revoke MMI's membership. However, it is important to mention that MMI strongly disagrees with their stance and are continuing to work with them to renew the relationship. MMI is still a member in good standing of 20 BBBs across the nation. All BBB issues and complaints that are brought against MMI are addressed through an assigned location in Albuquerque. The organization currently has no outstanding BBB complaints. Out of the 20 BBB standards that are used to determine charitable accountability, MMI met 19 of these standards. MMI believes that they do meet all standards and believes the BBB is without justification in saying that they do not meet one of their standards.

The standard in question is “Standard 15: Have solicitations and informational materials, distributed by any means, that are accurate, truthful and not misleading, both in whole and in part.”

MMI is not aware of any solicitations and/or informational materials that have been deemed to be inaccurate, untruthful or misleading, nor has the BBB informed us that such materials exist.

CA desists and refrain order is outdated. MMI entered into a settlement agreement with the counsel for the Plaintiffs involved with the intent to settle the purported class action lawsuit. MMI and the class representatives agree that no part of the proposed settlement should be construed as presumption of guilt, concession or admission of liability, or wrongdoing as to any facts or claims alleged in the Complaint. TanishaWarner (talk) 21:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

COIN

I have a conflict of interest with MMI and would like to help bring the article in-line with Wikipedia's standards following COI best practices. I've started a discussion string on the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard regarding this article. I wanted to post a notification here, in case there are editors with an interest in the article that would like to participate at the COIN board. CorporateM (Talk) 01:01, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I have prepared a 2-paragraph stub that is more in-line with Wikipedia's standards and seems like the appropriate length of the article located at User:CorporateM/MMI if anyone is interested in using it as a first draft of a stubbed article. This particular subject does not have stellar sources and I am open to scrutiny on that basis.

I noticed there was a prior discussion about the foundation date. It seems as though the organization promotes itself as having "provided services" since 1958 based on the age of its member organization, but the organization itself was founded in 1997. CorporateM (Talk) 00:20, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks good. I made the edit. As always, I looked at the edit carefully before accepting it and take full responsibility for the change. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:51, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

proposed draft for Money Management International

This page was an unwieldly mess of promotion and primary sources back in 2013. With help from @Guy Macon: a consensus was implemented to stubify the page. However, now stuff like “is recognized as the world's largest nonprofit, full-service credit counseling agency in the United States,” is creeping in and a lot of the page information (see infobox as an example) is extremely out-dated.

I work for Money Management International. Per Wikipedia’s conflict of interest rules, I’d like to propose a re-stubified version that updates the infobox, removes promotion, etc. for to be reviewed and considered by independent editors. Tazotj (talk) 19:22, 11 June 2020 (UTC)