Talk:Moncacht-Apé

Getting Started

I put together this article after coming across the tale of Moncacht-Apé while perusing an old French copy of Diderot's Encyclopédie. As you would suspect by the previous lack of a Wikipedia article, the story of Moncacht-Apé is not well known and seems to have been the subject of little historical research. Here's some basic background that will help future editors:

• All sources of information on Moncacht-Apé and his travels ultimately derive from La Page du Pratz. The story Le Page told in his book and another story told by his acquaintance Dumont de Montigny (which Dumont attributes to Le Page) are the only accounts written by men who claim to have known Moncacht-Apé.
• An English translation of Le Page's book was published around the turn of the 19th century. This book was apparently known to Jefferson and to Lewis and Clark, who apparently carried a copy with them on their expedition across the Louisiana Purchase. Whether legend or truth, the Moncacht-Apé story seems to have affected the course of European and American exploration of North America in the 18th and 19th centuries. The details of that influence should probably be a bigger part of this article.
• Aside from the translation of Le Page's book, there seems to be very little published in English about Moncacht-Apé until the near the end of the 19th century, when Arthur wrote the cited journal article relating the story and assessing its veracity. There seem to have been a couple of other publications soon afterward (none of which I could find copies of online) but then very little else to the present time. Sayre is the the only recent author who has written much on the historical Moncacht-Apé, as far as I am aware. Additionally, Cronin published a novelized embellishment of the Moncacht-Apé story, Yazoo Mingo, in 2002. I have not seen a copy of it, but Amazon's "Look Inside This Book" feature shows it has an extensive bibliography.
• The Moncacht-Apé story seems to have been better known in France than in England and the United States in the 18th and 19th centuries. A French-speaking editor may be able to identify additional sources and help to uncover the influence of the Moncacht-Apé story on European exploration of North America before Lewis and Clark.

I have tried to write the article in a manner that conveys the uncertain veracity of (a) the existence of Moncacht-Apé and (b) the extent of his travels without bogging down the prose in subjunctives. If other editors can propose a better way to write an article about a person who may be mere legend, please do. But without regard to the truth or fiction of the tale, I think Moncacht-Apé merits an article if only for the influence his purported travels seem to have had on European and American explorers who knew the story. Let's try to describe that influence in particular.

One other interesting aspect of the Moncacht-Apé story that I have so far neglected is his telling (in the account in Le Page's book) of a legend among Native Americans in the Northwest of a former land bridge that had connected their region with farther-off lands. The discussion of this part of the tale that I've seen (e.g., Arthur's article) seems to interpret it as referring to the prehistoric land bridge that connected Asia and America across what's now the Bering Strait. But it seems likelier that the legend may actually be the first account of the still extant legend of the Bridge of the Gods (land bridge). If we can find any sources discussing this, I think we should include a new section on this part of the story.

To get this article more exposure and attract more editors, we should probably edit the Lewis and Clark article to mention those explorers' consultation of Le Page's account of Moncacht-Apé's journey. It may also be useful to start a version of this article on the French Wikipedia as many sources are only available in French.

Feis-Kontrol (talk) 04:55, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Peer Review

I've been asked to review this article and will provide a peer review here. The article is clearly under construction and has undergone a relatively quick expansion. The writing is good with few grammatical mistakes, parenthetical references, and other pitfalls and infect many articles. I'll give some general thoughts on the article and any specific issues I see will be outlined below.

• Lead - Per WP:LEAD the lead needs to be a summary of the entire article. Be sure it covers every subject raised in the article. It's also good to expand single sentence (stub) paragraphs. Do we have any indication of an age, date of birth/death, cause of death, location of birth or anything else that would help readers get an understanding of this man's life beyond his one major achievement.
• Sources - There are a lack of in-line citations to help reference the article. I see 5 references but they are sprinkled very sparsely throughout the article. For example the Itenerary section has no in-line citations.
• Image - An image would be a great help if one can be found.

As stated previously the writing is very good and I know that the authors are looking for help from a historian to expand the article. I think this is off to a good start and there is potential for this article to reach GA class or higher if it is given the proper attention. H1nkles (talk) _{citius altius fortius} 21:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

H1nkles, thanks for the review. Some quick responses to your specific suggestions:

• Lead - Age, DOB, etc. do not exist in the historical record. The quoted description I've given in the article is the basically the extent of what's available aside from inferences that can be drawn from incidental detail in Le Page and Dumont's books.
• Sources - Help finding additional sources would be very welcome. They are few and far between, mostly in old books. Google results are swamped by a fictionalized/novelized book about Moncacht-Apé. (I haven't read that novel. If someone has access to a copy, please see whether it has a bibliography of sources we could draw on.) An editor with better fluency in French than me may be able to make good progress as more (mostly 18th century) material on Moncacht-Apé is available in French than in English.
• Image - One good candidate may be the map prepared by Le Page (available in his book at Google Books) of Moncacht-Apé's itinerary.

Feis-Kontrol (talk) 03:54, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Year

If Moncacht Ape did make this trip, I wonder about what year it was. The Cascadia Earthquake and Tsunami was in 1700. If he was there in the years immediately following, it seems likely that event would have gotten into his narrative in some form. That might imply that he was there prior to the earthquake, making the 1690s or 1680s likely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:980:C004:5410:9064:5BE5:9876:BEB8 (talk) 16:41, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Were the "White People" Ainu?

Who were the White people in Moncacht Ape's story? History doesn't give us much reason to imagine there were Europeans visiting the Pacific Northwest on an annual basis in the late 17th century. The story says the people were white, small, and bearded. It describes them as coming in two vessels. They have at least a few firearms -- two of the eleven killed were so armed, according to the story -- but that their firearms were heavier and perhaps less advanced than those of the French and Spanish colonists of North America. I was wondering if they might have been Ainu.

Firearms were available in Japan during that era. Ainu men did not shaving, so had full beards. They would have been physically smaller in stature. Ainu are noted as being lighter skinned than ethnic Japanese. During that period of history they were still somewhat politically independent from the Japanese, and economically filled a merchant niche between Japan and outside cultures. They were historically fishermen, who had vessels that might fit with descriptions of large "sailed" canoes. These vessels might fit not only with Moncacht Ape's story, but also with stories other Native Americans told Europeans about vessels on the Pacific Northwest coast.

There might even be a connection regarding the search for the bad-smelling yellow wood, in that Mugwort apparently had a prominent role in their culture. That's genus Artemesia, which includes Wormwoods, at least some of which can be used to produce yellow dyes, and generally have fragrance and bitter taste.

Did Ainu merchants or fisherman frequent the Pacific Northwest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:980:C004:5410:9064:5BE5:9876:BEB8 (talk) 17:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Another possibility would be Russians, but I don't have a good source for this speculation except perhaps this unclear one: https://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~gsayre/LPDPIII,8.html.Kdammers (talk) 01:52, 20 November 2023 (UTC)