Talk:Monasticism/Archive 1

Archive 1

Wiki monastics?

i wonder if wikipedians could be called monastic, similar line of work hehe

"True monasticism"?

Well, some of us are anyway :) --Frmaximos 15:44, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

True monasticism?

I am moving the following paragraph to this talk page, as I believe tat it is not applicable to all the religions mentioned in this article - particularly the reference to "God". olivier 16:20, Dec 5, 2004 (UTC)

"True monasticism consists not in wearing a particular uniform or haircut, not in participation in the rite of "initiation", and not in getting new names. True monastic status can only be acquired as a result of one's love and devotion to God and one's personal spiritual efforts."

Shinto monasticism?

I wonder if Shinto mikos can be considered monastics within the context of their religion and thus added to this page. Mitsukai 19:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

More appropriate illustration?

Re: Christian monasticism. Presumably a very important photograph for Christian historians; but since there is space for only one example of a Christian monk in this article, is it possible to find a depiction more representative of the majority Christian monk/nun look?

Portress 12:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Islamic monasticism?

I'll have say that the section on Islamic monasticism is quite uninformed and rather unbalanced. Islam and Muslims in general refer to their religion as non-monastic: "لا رهبانية في الإسلام"

The dervishes mentioned in the article are a minority sect that are not considered mainstream.

Perhaps a short introduction could clarify this. Until then I would submit to you that the accuracy of that section of this article should be marked as "disputed".

As you've requested, I've written an introduction to clarify he Islamic position on monasticism.
"Although Islam denounces monasticism and celibacy, today one may encounter some Muslim traditions with innovative practices that have absorbed monastic disciplines. According to a verse (57:27) in the Qur'an, a sacred text of Islam, Allah rebukes monasticism as a man-made invention and a practice which has never been "prescribe for them." Despite clear prohibitions from the Qur'an and Sunnah (a second source of Islamic law), monasticism has ironically found a place in the religious practice for many Muslims."
Usedbook 05:48, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The page as it is now does not give clear view of the most accepted stand on the subject from Islamic scholars, nor muslims who accept such concept. In other words; unfair to both views. As I tried to edit it, I found myself blocked because of shared-IP addresses, and some admins are not civilized enough to respond or help nor take appropriate actions. Kindly somebody with knowledge on the subject to please do justice to the article. ~Muhammad abu-Jassim (talk) 18:12, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

This recent edit relies extensively on primary sources and essentially repeats what is more concisely said in the already existing section. A number of minor edits have been made to try to clean it up, but it still seems unencyclopedic. I'll be bold and delete it. For the moment I'll leave the multiple issues banner up (feel free to take it down if the section seems OK). --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 15:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Merging with 'Religious Order'

Yes, it does seem very possible. But the concept of monasticism is broader than a listing of those orders that take on the practice and lifestyle. I would be happy to see the content of the Religious Order article be brought into this article in so much it offers examples of practising monastic groups. It would also be practical to redirect the search term 'religious order(s)' to monasticism, however, I see it as important to maintain the title 'monasticism' as it covers the broader idea. Example: "all of these are examples of oblongs and squares; they all come from a study of rectangles."Danieljames626 03:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Monasticism is a subcategory within religious orders. You see, there are "third orders", "chivalric orders", and I think some other kinds that do not come to my mind right now. The specific trait of monasticism is, as implied in the name itself, "solitude" ("alone with the Alone in the Name", they say) in varying degrees from pure heremitism to full cenobitic life. Merging these articles would not be correct, methinks, but including a link to "Monasticism" within "Religious Orders" sounds like appropriate (if it is not there yet). Juan

subsuming of Monasticism under religious order?

I think monasticism is trans-religous and should not be subsumed under "religious order". Mountain men conducted their lives much as did the desert fathers...and yet lacked something (other than a religious order). Today, there are secular monks as surely as there is an internet. Academe carries overtones of monasticism...now being supplanted by bureaucraticism...and science too is a non-religious context of belief around which deeply pursued monasticism is possible. The arts echo it also. Was Thoreau not a monastic secularist/artist?

There are many "lay orders" that are religious orders. These are people living in the world, sometimes married, who are part of a religious order. Monastics are also in a religious order, but definitely should not be merged with the religious order page, or merely part of that page. It's notable in it's own right, and this page is lengthy enough by itself. ॐ Priyanath 02:36, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

No! no! no! no! to "Merging with 'Religious Order"

Sorry to be dramaticbut my POV is that there are many Catholic religious orders that are not monastic in the strict sense of the word - like Jesuits - and this merging would not be a good thing at all. It would lead to confusion. I'm not sure about other world religions, but there is a clear and valid distinction among Catholics between Religious orders that are monastic (contemplative) and those which are not (so called "active" orders). We need to preserve the distinction. Cor Unum 10:35, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I say no also. I was here doing reasearch for a class I am taking which posed the following question for me to answer: "Describe monasticism and its significance during the medieval period?" I found it very helpful to find an article on monasticism, and not on religious order. 71.75.150.150 00:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Not appropriate! A religious order can include many non-monastic groups. It is a broader category. Parish priests are a religious order; Methodist ministers are are religious order (Order of Elders); members of opus dei are in a religious order. None of these persons are monks. To combine the two would be like combining chickens and bipeds as the same thing.

Andrew —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.37.102.220 (talk • contribs) 01:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Also do not merge.

1. Christian monasticism is a quite different thing from those religious orders that live active lives in the world.
2. I'm not sure if the term "religious order" applies outside Christianity, but monasticism certainly does.

I can see that the article on religious orders is quite weak and tends to spill over into monasticism, but that could be solved by looking in greater detail at the varieties of religious orders. The Mendicant orders (Franciscans and Dominicans) are prime candidates, one could also consider adding the various orders of canons, and the Jesuits have already be mentioned. --SteveMcCluskey 21:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Coptic Monasticism, a Sacrifice in the Desert

The newly added section on Coptic Monasticism reads as little more than a publisher's blurb for Gruber's book. As it stands it tells us more about Gruber than about Coptic monasticism and should be improved or deleted. --SteveMcCluskey 18:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Anthony and communities

I was "bold" and changed the reference to Anthony as the founder of communal monasteries. Everything that I read -- Chadwick, the Cath. Enc., Eastern Orthodox sources -- cite Anthony as an eremetic hermit, and credit Pachomius with the founding of cenobetic (communal) monasticism. If anyone objects to the edit, please discuss. Thanks, jrcagle 22:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Monasticism in other religions

maybe something should be added under Monasticism in other religions to the fact that there are two other important types of christian judiasing sects, the ebonities and the elxai? the ebonities were apparently a christian version of the jewish essenes, who believed that obediance to (the christan) law was how one obtained salvation. and the elxai were most likely a type of ebonites with strong gnostic influences, which lead them to a greater interest in astroligical speculations, numerology and dualistic tendancies. maybe this would fit better in another place, if anyone has a suggestion or just wants to put this information somewhere leave me a comment. --Johnnybravo01 21:30, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

＊ I agree that monasticism should be expanded because the Japanese version of this page does the same thing but leads to the Buddhist view by default: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%87%BA%E4%B8%96%E9%96%93 This led to some confusion because I wanted to link "monastic" to the Catholic version (as linking the word "monastic" from St. Gregory's page to the Buddhist view would be very misleading). I certainly don't want my own faith marginalized and I sympathize with those that are sometimes left out of the definitions. EiYuuDenSeTsu (talk) 23:22, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Christian Monasticism

Maybe more on Irish monasticism and how it was diffrent from Benedictean or Western monasticism would help the article. Eagles01836 23:57, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

something should probably be said about how Saint Benedict sent out missionaries to diffrent places, including Augustine. probably to the section of Christian monasticism. and much needs to be added about Gregory I "the great".+SPQR

"Monkasticism"

I corrected a few spellings of monasticism in the main article, originally thinking it was just a section heading that had been changed, I then corrected all the appearances, before realising that this was the result of a couple of bizarre re-edits that had already been made. I hope I have not gotten in the way of any procedure for dealing with determinedly unconstructive edits. (I tend to edit only in a passing way - usually just editing spelling mistakes that I notice etc, so I am a bit unsure as to correct form in these matters.) 77.99.102.43 (talk) 13:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Deleted sentence

Dear monkish editors: The following sentence appears to contradict what preceded and followed, and so I deleted it.

"Starting in Egypt, this gave rise to cenobitic monasticism as it is mainly known in the West."

The author of the article talks about the growth of the eremetic or reclusive style of monasticism, and out of nowhere, with no explanation, drops in this sentence on the rise of the cenobitic or more communal style.

But perhaps I'm not understanding something?Early morning person (talk) 20:11, 13 September 2010 (UTC)Early morning person (talk) 20:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Comment on origins of monasticism

In response to the claim of the opening paragraph that monasticism as an idea "originally related to Buddhist monks in 550 B.C.", I'd like add that the Vestal Virgins in ancient Rome represented an early form of monasticism and they were instituted somewhere between 717–673 BC, well before Buddha himself was even born. The Vestal Virgins were abolished in 394 AD by the Christian emperor Theodosius. Obviously, they were very different from Christian monasticism but the same is true for Buddhist monasticism. As for Christian-like monasticism, an antecedent of this can more accurately be found in the monasticism of pre-Christian Jewish sects such as the Essenes and the Therapeutae than in Buddhist monasticism. Abvgd (talk) 16:10, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. But why not "be bold?" For example, I deleted this paragraph that suggests that Christian monasticism was directly inspired by Buddhist monasticism-- some 200 years before Jesus was born:

"Buddhist monasticism, with its tradition of councils and missions, spread from India to the Middle East and eventually west. It proved to be a significant force for literacy wherever it spread. Christian monasticism followed in its footsteps in the areas where Emperor Ashoka sent missions."

My understanding is that interfaith communications between Christian and Buddhists monks is kind of a new thing and that monasticism-- like belts or cheese or writing-- is something multiple cultures came up with on their own.

208.68.128.53 (talk) 22:24, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

There are various forms of "monasticism" or "hermit" in the Mediterranean pre-Christian Roman Empire, in groups or not.

1) vestal virgins (very similar to today's Catholic nuns) were also tasks of sanitary assistance 2) cynical philosophers like Diogenes who lived in a barrel 3) some Stoic philosophers 4) shamanic oracles (Sibilla Cumana, Delphi, and shamans as Tiresias, then see Alpine, Germanic and Celtic worlds) 5) In the empire of Alexander the Great, there were gymnosophists (probably Hindus, Jains, or Buddhists hermits). They lived into the greek world. Some Greek kingdoms in India became Buddist see Menandro

The Western philosophical doctrine of balance between mind and body did not go very well with Eastern asceticism. The association between body-bad (Manicheans idea (born in Persian Area) eretical in first Christians environments) probably favored the wide spread of ascetic practice.

However, the Buddhist monastic structure was not born in India but in Bactria (Afghanistan). The Buddhist frescoes and Byzantine (Late Roman) frescoes and mosaics in some cases are virtually identical. I believe that the influences were mutual. If you read some patristic texts seems to be in the twentieth century. The ancient world before the collapse was very sophisticated and particularly small. There was a great awareness of the "ecumene". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.77.168 (talk) 10:25, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Female Monasticism

Sugest too include female monasticism. See es:Monacato femenino Salud!!--Mjblanco (talk) 10:03, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

I added a sentence about monasteries after it talkes about male and females are monks and nuns, in the initial paragraph.75.71.53.184 (talk) 16:30, 6 May 2014 (UTC)OVM2001 10;30, May 6, 2014

Date edit war

An IP, variously known as 216.255.168.240 (talk · contribs), 216.255.165.235 (talk · contribs), and 199.192.150.7 (talk · contribs), all of which addresses can be traced to the same ISP, has been repeatedly adding the same or similar flowery comments to dates in a series of recent edits. If the user has an issue with the date formats, he should discuss them here. Otherwise blocks or other action will be requested to stop this edit warring. --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 19:00, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Islam

It is written that islam does not allow monasticism, so why is it written in the "Kaldi" page that Kaldi, the goat-keeper, gave his coffee beans to an Islamic monk ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:2F28:A6F0:CDDC:7FA0:2231:1051 (talk) 21:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Monasticism/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs reference citations and references. Badbilltucker 16:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 16:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 00:21, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Section on Islam

The section on Islam is simplistic and ignorant. It erases the entire history of sufism in line with salafi/wahhabi ideas, and having someone knowledgeable to rewrite it should be an issue of top priority. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.31.173.106 (talk) 16:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Perspective

Referring to this quote: "Monastic life plays an important role in many Christian churches, especially in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions as well as in other faiths such as Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism." Neutrality is of upmost importance when talking about topics like religion. When listing religions that practice monastic life, why go into detail with Christianity and list the eastern faiths as others? The internet is available to everyone, lets keep it inclusive. Toblerone.jpg (talk) 19:12, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

What are you asking to be done here? Detail is necessary because English-speaking audiences will know of many Christian denominations and traditions where monasticism is unimportant or unknown, such as most of Protestantism. Are you saying we should go into detail about which Buddhists, Hindus and Jains find monasticism important as well? If you have WP:RS on that by all means add the detail. But I see nothing wrong with the statement as it is, given the sources we are presently working with. Elizium23 (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Sex and Gender in Early Christianities

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 12 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BlkIndia3 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Jpeashoes (talk) 13:05, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Monastic rules

This redirects here but this term is not mentioned in the article. We also have a confusing related article at Rule of Life. Anyone interested in those topics? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:36, 3 June 2023 (UTC)