Jump to content

Talk:Moldovans/Archive 6

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1←Archive 4Archive 5Archive 6

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

  • "mold-census" :
    • National Bureau of Statistics of the Republic of Moldova: [http://www.statistica.md/recensamint.php?lang=ro Census 2004]
    • [http://www.statistica.md/recensamint/Nationalitati_de_baza_ro.xls 2004 census results in Moldova]

DumZiBoT (talk) 19:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

(i lost a longer writting i did b/c of a connectivity problem) I meant for xasha to copy here because of his perma ban to edit this particular article. this obvioulsy only refers to him. anyone else can obviously write directly into the article and remove my edits if inappropriate. my word is not supperior to anyone's. if xhasa was more intelligent and civil he wouldn't be in this situation now. / my internet provider does some tricks now, or perhaps just mentainance, and i might loose connectivity again for some minutes... Dc76\talk 23:24, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Olahus on removing country populations where only the citizenship is listed (that is people from Moldova), as that is not an ethnic description. On further elaboration over geography, Moldavia is the correct article for that. On the "Romanian Moldovans" thing - this must be discussed first, as, clearly, the Moldovans in eastern Romania do not consider themselves to be a distinct ethnic group, as Moldovans from Moldova do, meaning that they must be mentioned in a separate section (part of the controversy) and their relation should be explained in a neutral manner. --Illythr (talk) 02:25, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what is the issue of conflict (too tired to follow both of you), so I wish you good luck. But I would kindly ask not to remove country population without prior discussion. It is well known that ca. 80% of Moldova's population are ethnic Moldovans, so those numbers are relevant. (Ethnic Molodvans among migrants to those counties are most probably over 90%.) If we start on this path, it would appear to the reader Moldovans only live in the former Soviet Union. You do understand that some counties explicitly forbid ethnic questions in censa. Dc76\talk 02:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
There is no way to confirm that those people are ethnic Moldovans. Those censa merely say that they came from Moldova, leaving their ethnicity to them. --Illythr (talk) 12:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
About the Romanian Moldovans thing - you can take a look at the huge heap of flood above. To put it short, Olahus' position seems to be that Romanian Moldovans and Moldovan Moldovans are the same group, a point of view that is supported by both nationalists and Voronin, albeit for diametrally opposite reasons.
As this moment is part of the controversy (no official Romanian figures mark the population of eastern regions as anything other than Romanians), I think it is worth noting in the text, but as part of the controversy. Olahus wants to implicitly recognize both groups as one and the same, which I think is a bad idea, because this article describes the group which considers itself separate. Lumping it together with the group that doesn't will make the issue even more confounded than it is now.

Metropoly of Bessarabia

The chain of court decisions was mangled in the text - the ECHR ruled in 2001 only about official recognition in Moldova, not that it was the heir. That MB is the heir of the pre-1944 See was confirmed by the supreme court of Moldova in 2004. Or so it seems. The links are dead, so I removed that part. Probably too deep for an article about the people anyway. But this should be sorted out in the article about the Metropoly. --Illythr (talk) 12:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe we have a slight FORK in this regard. I can count 4 articles:
In principle, the topics are ok, but we must edit so that the same info is not repeated too much, i.e. we have to know which goes where and have this in mind for the future. Can you find more related articles? Dc76\talk 12:43, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
A fifth one:
Any more? Dc76\talk 12:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
There's no fork (or spoon) if these articles handle their respective topics correctly and don't overlap. So far, I only see some overlap between all of them. Only the court thing needs to be corrected, but I couldn't find any live links to determine the timeline. --Illythr (talk) 13:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Exactly, that's what I meant: the articles cover their respective topics, which all are legitimate topics and desearve separate articles if those articles are more or less developed (let's say "have sections"), BUT there is an overlap (fork) of content in the sense of the same infos being sometimes releated. However, I am not willing to do this today. It can potentially take serious time to edits that, and I don't want to waste the whole Sunday. Dc76\talk 13:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
An overlap is not a fork, because the overlapping stuff is more or less the same in all the articles (although it can become one if two different articles are expanded to the point they contain nearly the same info, as was (and to a degree still is) the case with History of Bălţi, which pretty much repeated the contents of Bessarabia, Moldavia and History of Moldova articles). --Illythr (talk) 14:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
ok, but I really don't have the time, nor interest for that article now. If I remember correctly, I only cleared the middle ages. Dc76\talk 21:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

do Moldovans consider themselves Dacians?

like many of the Vlachs do? 199.117.69.8 (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

yes. Dc76\talk 22:55, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Recent concerns

Please list concerns about article below (Dc76\talk 09:22, 18 October 2009 (UTC)) :

The map is fine. It is based on sources. --Olahus (talk) 22:45, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
Then mention this somehow in the caption. Something like "Map based on..." or simply add 2-3 refs to the existing caption. Without some kind of supporting argument for the map, Anonimu will nominate it as "dubious" or smth similar again and again. Dc76\talk 20:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Seriously, DEX as source?Anonimu (talk)
Sorry, I wasn't very careful. The map is indeed based on a number of sources: just click the file. Nobody prevents an alternative map to be created if there are alternative sources and alternative interpretations. But adding OR tags just because one is too lazy is not a valid reason. Dc76\talk 11:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
None of the sources do in any way support the map. The first is a Romanian dictionary, and is about the definition of Moldavian (i.e. people from the region of Moldavia, as opposed to Moldovans). The second just has some info about Romanian internal migration, again not making any claims about Moldovans, while the third is just a fringe view, and says nothing about the exact geographic location. Thus the map lacks proper sources.Anonimu (talk) 11:37, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

May I respectfully disagree? Violette Rey - Atlas de la Roumanie and Brockhaus Enzyklopädie seem like reliable sources, and you would have to go to the library to get them. The census results are obviously there for the reason of completeness of sources used when drawing the map, not for anything else. "Vladimir Socor - an article from the Jamestown foundation" is as fringe a source as any mainstream publication. The only thing to consider is that Dicţionarul explicativ al limbii române, Academia Română, Institutul de Lingvistică "Iorgu Iordan", Editura Univers Enciclopedic, 1998 might use the term "Moldoveni" with the English sense of "Moldavians". But the problem is that only in English there are two words: "Moldavians" and "Moldovans". All other languages, including Romanian have one word. Giving them two senses would be saying that there are two ethnic designations: Moldavian and Moldovan. There aren't!

We need to think better about this, because we cannot justify things solely for their politically correct usage in English, when such notions don't exist in reality. Here is what I suggest: Let us have two sections: "Moldavians" and "Moldovans", each describing the uses and meanings of each word in English, with appropriate data and maps. The article could be titled, for example ""Moldovans" and "Moldavians"". It will be focussed on explaining the meaning of both terms. It would be perfectly inter-wiki-able. Dc76\talk 11:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I claim nothing. I just copyeditted. I took on good faith what other editors brought in. While you blindly reverted it without even bothering to first add a cn tag to ever sentence you find questionable. You did not even bother to list below what you find questionable. Dc76\talk 20:28, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Why add cn tags to unsourceable things? Fact tags are not a carte blanche to present false information on WP.Anonimu (talk) 20:35, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Because you did not bother listing in the talk page what things you consider incorrect. Dc76\talk 21:22, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Dc, there's a simple issue which you're missing from the picture, and this misunderstanding of yours doesn't help the article move on. For one, insisting on the ambiguous Romanian term as indicative of anything is not at all constructive, it is absurd: it adds an amphibology, and mixes the pots. Secondly, the subject of this article is about the ethnic identity (as questioned or questionable as that identity is or isn't). That ethnic identity is primarily designated as "Moldovans", regardless of whether the term also has a regional (inhabitants of Moldavia) or national sense (citizens of Moldova). That term, in this context, also has the alternative "Moldavia" (just like Moldova is sometimes known as "Moldavia", and just like the inhabitants of Moldavia may sometimes be known as "Moldovans"). Do we understand each other?

The convoluted, confusing and absurd internet meme that says otherwise (like in the case of "confusion" between the Romani people and the Romanians) is a joke, if not a diversion. By tweaking the lead to say something unnecessary (or necessary only if we assume that readers of this page are complete morons), you are, unwittingly I presume, giving credibility to that joke. You also introduce a false certainty, since, as I said, the difference between regional and ethnic identities is not consecrated in the names (which are, up to a certain degree, interchangeable). And what's more, wikipedia does not (as a rule) have or need distinct articles on regional identities or citizenships, which are mere notes to their respective articles on regions or countries. You may also want to read up on WP:COAT. Do we understand each other?

Needless to say, the map in question is bogus. It posits on the basis of the amphibology I mentioned (which, not long ago, was populating this entire article) and is frankly hilarious. Its claims about sources are purposely misleading, and some of those sources are unreliable. The overall result is a sample of WP:SYNTH. Dahn (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

And may I add: this entire article is still lame. I can't get past the large section entirely "sourced" with direct interpretation of obscure primary sources, apparently from one editor who has never read or cared about WP:PSTS. A large, large part of the article reads like an essay. An amateurish essay. Dahn (talk) 18:35, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Is this the first article about an Eastern European ethnic group you read? ;) Anonimu (talk) 19:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Oh, don't get me started... :) One at a time. Dahn (talk) 21:42, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Dahn, I actually I do not understand a number of points you make. The best way would have been for you to copyedit the entire article and say: "this is what it should tell". That would simplify a lot any discussion because it would allow us to focus on particular words and phrases.

Please, do not tell "this entire article is still lame". Either edit it, or don't blame on me; I haven't written this article. I gave a try to what copyedit I could do; but your response was a blind revert. If you can do better than me, then please do. Yes, an amateurish essay which you preferred to my version. Now, you, not me, are the one responsible for it, and I ,not you, will criticize :-) And you be ready to answer with your skin for the amateaurish essay :-) Do we understand each other? :-)

Now seriously:

  • "the map in question is bogus", "It posits on the basis of the amphibology I mentioned", "is frankly hilarious", "purposely misleading". Are you a politician? Don't you have a more normal vocabulary? Can you just say what is wrong with the map instead of this monologue? Better so, create a better map! See how you feel when others call your work "hilarious" or "bogus". Such language is outrageous even if it was warranted. Moreover, you avoid the subject: what exactly is wrong with the map? which line should be where? which color is incorrect? how it should look like ideally? Either answer these questions, or stop criticizing the map. (sigh; now calmly:) Please.
  • What "insisting on the ambiguous Romanian term"? What do you mean?
  • Secondly, the subject of this article is about the ethnic identity (as questioned or questionable as that identity is or isn't). Isn't? You say "isn't"? If you pretend there is no controversy, then you are highly POV (not to mention factually wrong: there is a controversy. period.), and hence totally disqualified to edit or comment. Choose. Either stop with political correctness or ... Just stop with political correctness.
  • If the subject of the article is the controversial ethnic identity, then a section or a sub-section could be alloted to explain the meaning "from Moldavia" which is attributed to the word "Moldoveni". Mind you, there existed such things as "Partidul Moldovenilor", hence there is a regional identity. Mind you, that is not like in Wallachia, where you cannot derive anything from "Tara Romaneasca". The term "Moldoveni" is very notable in regional sense and at least a section should be alloted to explain that sense.
  • That ethnic identity is primarily designated as "Moldovans", regardless of whether the term also has a regional (inhabitants of Moldavia) or national sense (citizens of Moldova). You put the cart before the ox. The regional identity comes first, the ethnic identity derives from it, the "citizens" sense derives from the name of the country. It is ok if the article is focussed on the ethnic identity, as long at it does not forget to mention the source of the term: the regional identity, and the fact that the regional identity is still widely used.
  • The convoluted, confusing and absurd internet meme that says otherwise (like in the case of "confusion" between the Romani people and the Romanians) is a joke, if not a diversion.- For God sake, stop with negative adjectives. Give the link so that we can see what you are talking about.
  • you are, unwittingly I presume, giving credibility to that joke. - No, you are. Remember it is your version. You defend it! :-)
  • the difference between regional and ethnic identities is not consecrated in the names (which are, up to a certain degree, interchangeable). - In Romanian: clearly not, because there is only one term. In English: to a large extent it (the "meaning", not "identity" - political correctness again, mind you) is consecrated. Other cases are exceptions. But as I said, since in all other languages except English, there is only one term, it's absolutely ok to mention that the difference between regional and ethnic meanings is not always respected even in English, and is sometimes interchangeable.
  • And what's more, wikipedia does not (as a rule) have or need distinct articles on regional identities or citizenships, which are mere notes to their respective articles on regions or countries. You may also want to read up on WP:COAT. Do we understand each other? - Oh, this is really the one I would like to understand. If you are suggesting to delete this article and have [[Moldova]]ns, respectively [[Moldavia]]ns everywhere, then... you know, this might work. Is that what you propose? Dc76\talk 23:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Dc76\talk 22:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll reply to your points in the way you raised them, one by one (though I really wish you'd stop replying to sentences cut in half):
  • I don't blame anybody for this article (though I'm pretty sure you didn't write it), and I was merely commenting to show the problems that it still has. Just above, you kept claiming that we should be addressing every concern on this talk page, otherwise objections will not be taken into account (by whom?). So which is?
  • Please, let's reduce the sophistry to a minimum: both versions of the article were and are amateurish, not because of the lead (which is finally acceptable), but because of the nonsense below it and throughout. So, no, I won't bite.
  • I have said precisely what is wrong with the map: WP:SYNTH to name just one guideline it breaks (though the entire WP:OR is relevant here). Masquerading this clear point into a debate about "wrong colors" et al. quite frankly don't deserve a reply. In addition to that, it introduces an amphibology - I already mentioned what amphibology that is, several times so far. If you want to discuss my vocabulary (I for one don't), make it into a post on my talk page or smthg, and I'll may be tempted to reply. As we stand, there's nothing in it that has any relevancy for this topic, is there?
  • I will repeat it: this article is about the ethnic term. Having an article on that name from that perspective is not an evidence of reality or endorsement, it imply defines a topic (a controversial topic, if you will). For one, wikipedia having an articles on the mighty leprechaun don't imply that leprechauns exist, just that the topic exists. For the other, "Moldovan" has become, for better or worse, an ethnic identity in the one most acceptable and rational common term this has, being adopted as such by at least a number of people, who use it to define themselves - this is and should remain the core of this article, with nothing preventing the addition of scholarly commentary on the problems this has or causes. Referencing that controversy is obviously also relevant here, but this should be done without: a) the addition of misleading and editorialized comments on other meanings of the terms, which introduce an internet meme amphibology for the sake of outside political debates; b) the interpretation of primary sources; c) the absence of reliable secondary sources; d) favoritism for any POV. Let me state this very clearly: this subject has been discussed in countless historiographic works, which deal with the many views exhaustively, and show what is to be nuanced about both views (and, yes, many times with emphasis on the fact that "Moldovan" begun its existence as a politicized term imposed artificially - or, at least, more artificially than any other ethnic identity, as they all are ultimately artificial on some level). The article blows in the face of all that by imposing coaching from opinionated wikipedia users (I don't really care which wikiepdia users), written like an essay, and making efforts to present the other view as stranger or more obscure than it is.
  • Again: the regional identity is a distinct topic, does not address the same reality, and is only discussed there because it blurs the matter. If and when it should turn out that "Partidul Moldovenilor" is relevant for this topic (and, btw, it never even seemed to have even claimed autonomy, and was more of a tax reform party if I recall correctly), and if this importance can be discerned from secondary sources, that info can be added into a section at the bottom discussing the supposed similarities between the topics as related phenomenons. It should not guide the article (see also WP:UNDUE), and should certainly not promote misleading claims that is more than coincidental overlap between the two notions.
  • Again, your version(s) advertised a confusion where there was none, and seemed to do its/their best to minimize the ethnic definition of Moldovan. Since it didn't attest a real phenomenon, it was very much owed to the faulty and misleading rationale according to which "Romani" would (purposefully) create confusion with "Romanians" - and, given that both that meme and the current version owe their origin on wikipedia with the same editor (whom I won't name, but who is arguably walking on thin ice), it is safe to assume that the amphibology blasted into this article was on purpose. You took that bait, I and the others who, like you, edit in good faith, didn't. Let's get over it and stop promoting that user's nonsense.
  • Dc, you are right to say that in all other languages there is but one term (though the purpose of my comment was that there isn't, though one, the one we use as a title for this page, is consecrated). But that's very much like the flawed argument used for the "Romani as Romanians" stuffola - semantically, it matters not, it's this language that takes primacy. And the point is obviously elsewhere: even in those languages, the names are not synonyms, they are homonyms. Even in this case, the homonymy is addressed by Moldovan (disambiguation), not by this article. The one instance that would need a separate article is this one, because it revolves around the (contested) ethnic identity - that is a topic, the rest are just adjectives for other articles (Moldavia, Moldova).
  • Your very last point appears to be a joke, based on the idea that it's funny to pretend that you could go through an entire post of mine without getting any of my points. Except it's not funny. Dahn (talk) 00:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I have read your reply once. I will read it again tomorrow and answer also tomorrow. I am sorry. I am simply too tired now. Thank you for your time and patience. I believe the lead is more or less ok. But you should re-write the entire article. If you cann't source something, I can help with that. But you need to give a backbone. Dc76\talk 00:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Most important population group

The article states at the beginning, "Moldovans or Moldavians.... are the most important population group of Moldova." Who decides which group of people is important, and important in what context? --YKatakura (talk) 13:50, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Most likely it was a reference to their numeric importance. I've changed to make it more clear.Anonimu (talk) 14:01, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Who organized what

First, the minor issues that were raised by the census observers are already mentioned in the text. So, drawing extra attention to that in the intro is undue (the observers in their report didn't) and misleading (these "communists" are fake anyway). Second, the Romanian census is over eighty years old and belongs to the history section (as well as any of the subsequent Soviet censa). Besides, was "Moldovan" an actual choice in that census for anyone to prefer it? --illythr (talk) 20:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Nice try good buddy. Guess what, if you will make an absolute statement such as "Most people in RM self-identify as Moldovans" on the quite controversial issue of Moldovan self-identity, then YES IT IS PERFECTLY NORMAL to state WHICH SOURCE (in this case censa) illustrated that 'most of the Romance-speakers identify as Moldovans' and which censa presented the opposite. It is not misleading at all to state that the 2004 census was organized by communists because that is who was in power at the time. And for your info, a lot of people in the world are quite sympathetic to the communist ideology and would under no circumstance think that 'they are fake anyway'. As far as the 1930 Romanian census goes, yes it is over eighty years old - that is an obvious fact and the reader may draw whatever conclusion they wish from it such as "it is old and thus may not represent the current reality". What belongs to the 'history section' (I am guessing by that you are trying to suggest - "the unimportant section") and what doesn't depends on which side you are on. I suppose you are on the side of "whatever is presenting the pro-Romanian side should be taken out". But that is not how wikipedia works. The idea is to present facts and let the reader decide. As both 1930 and 2004 are in the past, I think we all would agree that they both belong to 'history'. We are simply reporting what two censa (which obviously are part of history since they have been conducted in the past) have had to say on the subject. In the future, I truly suggest to the Anti-Romanian propaganda machine to make a bit better arguments - you guys are too obviously pushing your own agenda around here. Dapiks (talk) 05:39, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The phrase in the lede is not only supported by the "Communist census", but also by the studies presented in the first section, from the most stereotypically anti-Communist authors one can find (i.e. an US and an Estonia author). Also, could we get over those conspiracy theories about the "Anti-Romanian propaganda machine"? Anonimu (talk) 20:34, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
For census data, it is unusual to draw attention to who is the ruling party at the time unless there's a serious claim to the census' credibility, which, according to the international observers cited in the body of the article, is not the case (and is thus misleading). Likewise unusual is the listing of long-obsolete censa in the lede. Thanks for the good old ad-hominem by the way, I almost felt nostalgic for a moment there. On topic, I removed the phrase about people preferring one or the other altogether, hopefully this will solve the problem. --illythr (talk) 22:41, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

About the definition of Moldovans, we have two POV :

  • the constitutional & legal POV of the former-Soviet states (Moldovans are only the romance-speking citizens of these states, and the inhabitants of the romanian Moldavia are only Romanians, NOT Moldovans)...
  • the traditional, historic and geographical POV : Moldovans/Moldavians are the inhabitants of the whole ancient territory of the Principality of Moldavia, including the romanian citizens from the romanian Moldavia.

The both POVs have a lot of sources, and, from the second one, even the name of this traditional region ("Moldova" : 8 judete) and an entire litterature, ethnic studies, historic works about it, attest the moldovan/moldavian identity of 4.734.000 persons living in Romania, in this 8 judete, who can, in Romania, self-identify themselves as Moldovans and Romanians, each term being compatible with the other one (see by example Moldavia, Churches of Moldavia, Folclor din Moldova : texte alese din colecții inedite ["Folklore of Moldavia : selected articles from inedite collections"], Editura pentru Literatură, Bucharest 1969 ; Vlad Georgescu, History of the political ideas in the east-romance lands (1369-1878), Munich 1987...).

So, if you decide than 4.734.000 persons "doesn't self-identify as Moldovans" and have "no reliable source links them to this way", if you denie their traditional identity to the romanian Moldovans/Moldavians, only because the word "Moldovans/Moldavians" have in Romania a geographic, not ethnic mean, you express a POV issued from the Soviet ethnography. We must describe this POV, but the other one (the geographic one) exists also, and if you hide it, you deprive the readers of an information. What for ?: with or without this information, nothing changes in the political reality !

I don't serve anyone, nether Romania, nether CCCP, nether Moldova. Only knowledge. Each one have the right to see, to chose, to make himself his opinion... audiatur et altera pars (listening also the other side).

But I cannot contribute on this way : this is NOT (HET, NU, NEIN, NO) the official POV in Moldova. In this way, I remember my young time, before 1988, at the east side of the "iron courtain"... Too bad, --Spiridon Ion Cepleanu (talk) 17:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

The two conflicting POV's are whether modern Moldovans who live in the Republic of Moldova (and other ex-USSR countries) are a separate ethnicity from Romanians. The common cultural, linguistic, and geographic background shapes the argument against this, whereas the two centuries of isolation of of Bessarabia and later the MSSR from Romania serve to advance the opposing view. All this is already covered in the article. Modern inhabitants of the western half of the former Principality of Moldavia were never isolated, leaving them outside of the controversy and making their mention irrelevant in a modern context. So, according to one POV, you must add all self-declared Romanians and Moldovans together, and according to the other POV you have to count them separately. --illythr (talk) 00:08, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

this article is about moldovans NPOV, POV and others

What is a moldovan? if it is a person belonging 43% of present Romanian Moldova region (Iasi ...etc) then we can't called them in so-called ~Moldovan language but only in Romanian language. Otherwise it contradicts itself. Hope you understand this. 213.203.152.28 (talk) 21:27, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

DNA stuff

This sentence was added into the article by user:Razvanus without reliable sources, sampling data, or even any kind of attribution. It should be therefore removed until such a source is provided. Once done, it will first have to be rewritten so as to actually make sense - as all human DNA is "largely the same with minor differences". --illythr (talk) 23:05, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Allways the same misunderstanding

Revert of this afternoon : Moldovans are an ethnic group (imaginary community linked by shared cultural values), whether Romanians like it or not.
Objection your honor : Moldovans is an english word with several meanings, yes, whether Romanians like or not the moldovan, ukrainian & russian one, and also, whether Moldovan, Ukrainian, Russian or communist people like or not the romanian one. It's also a fact, even if you don't like and revert it, what according with the public international law, "Moldovans" (and not "Moldavians") are all the citizens of Moldova "regardless of ethnic identity".
But if you censor all my interventions, a constructive collaboration is impossible and I can write about this facts only here, where your contempt spare me... Too bad, --Spiridon Ion Cepleanu (talk) 20:03, 13 November 2015 (UTC).
My reverted version :
Moldovans (in Moldovan/Romanian moldoveni pronounced [moldoˈvenʲ]) are, regardless of ethnic identity and according with the public international law, the citizens of Moldova ; according with the usual and official definitions in the former soviet states, they are the largest population group of the Republic of Moldova (75.8% of the population), and a significant minority in Ukraine and Russia ; under the variant Moldavians, the term may also be used to refer to all Eastern-Romance-speaking inhabitants of the territory of historical Principality of Moldavia, currently divided among Romania (47.5%), Moldova (30.5%) and Ukraine (22%) : this is the usual meaning in Romania.

OK, first "fix" the article about Romanians (which, in public international law, should include guys like Kelemen Hunor, Varujan Pambuccian and Raed Arafat) and then we'll talk about modifying this article. thank you. Anonimu (talk) 20:55, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
In french, I done this since years, and not only concerning the romanian people. Frenchmen are OK ith the difference between citizenship (all bearers of a passport of their country are "Moldovans", "Romanians", "French", etc., according with the jus soli) and ethnicity (imaginary communities linked by shared cultural & historical values, according with jus sanguinis). But not moldovans (as the romance-speking community of the former CCCP states exclusively), not romanians (as the romance-spekers of Romania and its neighbouring states), not a lot of arabic-origins or turkish people, not a lot of jews out of France (religious and/or cultural identity)... --Spiridon Ion Cepleanu (talk) 12:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 4 external links on Moldovans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 02:20, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 external links on Moldovans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 18:56, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Moldovans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 05:11, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Moldovans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Moldovans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:38, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on Moldovans. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 13:14, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

"...are a Romance-speaking ethnic group and the largest ethnic group of the Republic of Moldova..."

"Moldovan" is better off being addressed in this article as a nationality rather than an ethnicity. It is near universal consensus that the Romanian language and so-called Moldovan language are identical. What then, designates Moldovans as a separate ethnicity from Romanians? Furthermore, to identify "Moldovan" as an ethnicity also excludes the Slavic and Gagauz populations in Moldova, who are also Moldovans. 108.46.168.9 (talk) 07:25, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Edit: I myself have modified the article's introduction, and have used a more neutral approach, immediately bringing up the controversy over Moldovan ethnic and linguistic identification. I also now understand that the article refers to Moldovans in an "ethnic sense", not including non-Romance groups that live within the country's territory. 108.46.168.9 (talk) 08:45, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
Even if we were to admit that the 2 distinct languages (or dialects of Eastern Romance) are similar or even the same, we have many examples of different peoples (ethnic groups) using the same language.
The ethnicity is determined by 3 components: common origin (but Romans were part of many ethnic groups so, without a clear evidence, it's impossible to say the Roman citizens can be considered a "common origin"), common history (Wallachia and Moldavia have had a distinct history since their inception, therefore the people have also had different histories) and common culture (again, not the case with Wallachians and Moldavians). Klehus (talk) 12:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Moldovans/Archive_6&oldid=1243922967"