Talk:Mohamed El-Amin Ahmed El-Tom/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: BritneyErotica (talk · contribs) 20:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

doing the copy editing but what do you mean by "It is important to note the previous Did you know nomination in March 2023 references copy edit issues, which have since gotten worse due to significant additions to the article."? the DYK nomination does not mention any references copy edit issues and the article did not go through "significant additions". the size of the article since March did not increase beyond few bytes FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:30, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Apologies for any confusion. The byte size did increase from around 10 March 2023 to August 2023, but the majority was to do with the references/citations. However there were still some additions made in the Introduction and Awards and Nominations sections. In relation to the copy editing mentioned in the DYK nomination, the specific section I engaged with was the reviewer stating "I had to copyedit the article, because it was simpler to correct minor grammar or punctuation errors than to explain them to you". Regardless of the additions (or lack of), I still noticed that this area needs to be improved (and was by the reviewer to a certain degree). The criteria for GA status and a successful DYK nomination is different, which explains why I've emphasised copy editing and the language used. BritneyErotica (talk) 14:04, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

yah DYK says "correct minor grammar" not "copy edit issues" as you frame it or "it gotten worse" which is not a confusion from my side but rather misrepresentation from yours. and if DYK and GA are different than why bring that to the conversation when you think it support your argument and disregard it when it does not?

You also mentioned "Basic grammar (such as full stops) are misplaced." can you give couple of examples please? I could not find any

Anyway, I am done copy editing and will try to get a 2nd opinion FuzzyMagma (talk) 18:38, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

It says the person had to copyedit the article meaning some issues needed to be copyedited. I mentioned it because it is relevant to the recommendations I've brought up and that it could indicate a fundamental issue which may not be fixable in the time frame for this review. The different criteria show that the changes made for the DYK nomination were not enough for the current GA nomination, but this was not the point in the original feedback table. I'm not sure why there's so much pushback from your end if the main issue I've emphasised is to copy edit your article and change some language choices. To answer your question, in your Minister of Education section "due to his “deep patriotism, professionalism and high efficiency". and because “there is no person more qualified than him."". An example is the full stop after "efficiency". I will mark this review for a 2nd opinion if that is what you'd like. BritneyErotica (talk) 04:03, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

The push back is against the rhetoric and not the substance. When you use false information to paint a picture that is not engaging in a good faith assessment. When you say by "It is important to note the previous Did you know nomination in March 2023 references copy edit issues, which have since gotten worse due to significant additions to the article." a sentence that is factually wrong from start to end, then I need to push back.

it you want the article to be copy edited then ask for that and help a little by being specific, If you want to quick fail do that too, but do not “frame” things as facts when they are not.

having minor issues is not a GA quick fail criterion and that is why I am pushing back FuzzyMagma (talk) 07:02, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I have requested a 2nd opinion and will wait up to 22 August before finalising this review. The statement made is not incorrect as it mentions copy editing. I referenced more that one criterion with my initial comments and ultimately chose to hold the review. This is consistent with what you've said where it does not satisfy GA quick fail criterion. Disputing me on my recommendations (regardless of how I've phrased it) instead of focussing solely on improving the article is not productive. I've noticed you are making changes which is good. Some more comprehensive feedback:

Short description

Contains the name Omar Al-Qarai which initially confused me since I did not know who he was. To satisfy a broad audience perhaps putting "... and Sudanese journalist Omar Al-Qarai" could work better.

amended

Early life and education

Bachelor of Science and Doctor of Philosophy should have capitalisation

amended

Resolve [Wikidata] tag

if the page is made, this gets update and the interlanguage link gets removed

Academic career

"After his" is used to start consecutive sentences. Consider changing one of them.

Consider this revised sentence: "After completing his DPhil, he rejoined as a Senior Scholar from 1965 to 1968. During this period, he played a role in establishing the School of Mathematical Sciences. Subsequently, he took on a position as a Research Fellow at the Center de Calcul at the University of Louvain in Belgium from 1968 to 1969."

amended

Consider this revised sentence: "El-Tom advanced in his academic career, serving as a Lecturer at the University of Ulster and later as a Professor at Columbia University. His expertise also led him to roles at the European Center for Nuclear Research (CERN), Qatar University, and the Sudan Centre for Educational Research. Subsequently, he was appointed as the Dean of the University of Garden City."

amended and name of position was changed from "Professor" to "professor" (no cap, see MOS:CAP

Research

Consider the following revised sentence: "In March 1978, El-Tom took the lead in chairing and organising the International Conference on Developing Mathematics in Third World Countries held in Khartoum. Two decades later, in 1998, he played a similar role for The Status and Future of Higher Education in Sudan conference in Cairo. Additionally, he co-founded the African Institute for Mathematical Sciences in Dar es Salaam in 2003.

amended

Minister of Education

Clarify nominated El-Tom for the Ministry of Education. How was he nominated for the Ministry? Is this supposed to be nominated as the Minister?

amended

Clarify On 5 September 2019, he was nominated Minister of Education. The inline citations do not support this. It seems to be more appropriate to use "announced as the Minister of Education".

amended to "appointed"

Reforms

El-Tom, within the Council of Ministers, moved education from the ninth to second position in the pyramid of government spending priorities, which were presented by the former Minister of Finance in charge of the Council is unsupported from the inline citations. The pyramid of government spending is non-universal terminology, and so I'm unsure if this should be capitalised (e.g., the Pyramid of Government Spending) or should it be "The Sudanese Government's pyramid of spending"? Is it possible to Wikilink this or find a reliable source to the referenced change?

amended by removing "pyramid". Inline citation provided

Revise He provided through donors an amount of $2 for each student per year. I'm unsure how citation [27] supports this unless it's mentioned in the video. I cannot provide an example on how to revise this sentence but I recommend improving it.

Inline citation provided (which was at the end of the whole paragraph was moved to the sentence , see this

Citation [29] does not support the mentioned laws. The sentence says a new Public Education Law and the Private Education Law which needs clarification. Is "Public Education Law" the title of the law? If not, then it should not be capitalised. If it is, then it should be "the new Public Education Law". Similarly, is it "the Private Education Law" or just "a private education law". It is single piece of legislation that is changed or is it several areas (meaning it should be laws and not just law). Please find a reliable source for this information.

As far as I understood the sources it seems like these are the name of laws since why it was caped. reliable sources Sudan Akhbar and assayha are included now

Citation [29] seems to be a better in place of inline citation [27], but Sudan Akhbar does not seem reliable. I'd recommend sourcing better sources and if possible specific government references to this.

yes agreed, sorry for that, now corrected. I added another source where I used Sudan Akhbar but happy to remove the informations sources from it if it is depreciated

I'll continue this level of feedback when I have more time. Could you clarify the name of this article? In all sources I've seen, he is referred to as "Muhammad Al-Amin Al-Tom", but the name of the article has different spelling as "Mohamed El-Amin Ahmed El-Tom". Also, "El-Tom" is used to lead many consecutive paragraphs in the article. Consider changing it up to avoid repetition. BritneyErotica (talk) 08:34, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

I replied in green above. Your last point is valid tbh. I got the name from African Doctorates in Mathematics and African Academy of Sciences (archived but if "Muhammad Al-Amin Al-Tom" is what is used in most English sources as you says then I will move the page. I tend to use "El-Tom" when there is another name in the sentence as using he/his can confuse the reader FuzzyMagma (talk) 14:42, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Just a quick point: From reading the sources for the previously mentioned laws, it phrases as "the private education law for the year 2020". Usually the name for a piece of legislation would be something like the "Private Education Act 2020", in which you'd specifically mention this. It seems that the articles refer to general law(s) and so I'd rephrase it similar to how the sources have (e.g., new public education and private education laws).

The sources translate his name to what was previously mentioned. I've reviewed other sources, such as Unesco, Usip and North Dakota State University which have slight variations (Mohammed (double 'm') and Mohamed El Amin Ahmed El Tom (without the hyphens)). I would leave it how it is as it seems to be the most supported spelling. BritneyErotica (talk) 15:11, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Other spellings are redirects and I added the name from the machine translation to the lede FuzzyMagma (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

@BritneyErotica are you still reviewing this? FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:15, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I'll provide the other 50% of the feedback within the next 24 hours. It seems that we weren't able to get a second opinion (which I requested) which is fine. I'm sure we can reach a conclusion very soon. BritneyErotica (talk) 13:43, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

@FuzzyMagma Here's some more feedback from the Reforms section onwards.

“He also insisted on implementing the slogan of free education.” I’m a bit confused about whether “slogan” is used correctly here. Is he just insisting on implementing free education? Usually, a slogan would be some sort of catch phrase or similar. The source doesn’t reference explicitly a “slogan”.Y

“He provided through donors an amount of $2 for each student per year” Consider rewording to “Through donors, he provided $2 for each student per year.” Y

“El-Tom enacted a new public education law and the private education law in 2020” Easier to say “El-Tom enacted new public and private education laws in 2020.” Y

“El-Tom proposed giving the students of the College of Education a stipend while studying to raise the acceptance rate for the college, to guarantee the graduation of qualified teachers” Consider rewording to “El-Tom suggested providing a stipend to the students of the College of Education during their studies to enhance the college's enrolment rate and ensure the graduation of competent teachers.”. Also clarify what College of Education is. Is it a specific department in a university?

• Amended, sorry it is my mistake "College of Education" turned out to mean just studying education at any college.

“He planned for the construction exemplary schools, in terms of buildings and content, called the Twenty-First Century Skills Schools, which was funded by international donors.” Potential puffery with the use of “exemplary”. I couldn’t see the source (when translated) use the word either. Consider: “He initiated the construction of schools, named the Twenty-First Century Skills Schools, with a focus on both infrastructure and curriculum. These projects were financed by international donors.”

• I should have caped "Exemplary Schools", it is a type of schools that is similar Grammar School in the UK for example. Redlinked for now. Text amended

“{{tq|In March 2020, the Sudanese Ministry of Education decided to postpone secondary school exams, which were scheduled for the next 12 April, for an indefinite period, to be determined later, after Coronavirus was declared a pandemic. El-Tom said in a press conference that "the decision was taken in the interest of the students and their families", expressing his apology for the issuance of the emergency decision, despite the preparations being made for the exams, which affected about 500,000 students” Consider shuffling the sentence around to something like: “In March 2020, following the declaration of the Coronavirus as a pandemic, the Sudanese Ministry of Education delayed the secondary school exams initially set for 12 April. The new date was to be announced later. At a press conference, El-Tom stated that the decision prioritised the well-being of students and their families. He acknowledged the sudden nature of the decision and its impact on the preparations for the exams, which involved approximately 500,000 students.” Y

“But in September 2020, the Ministry of Education announced the postponement of the opening of schools, scheduled for the 27th of this month, to 22 November due to the lack of readiness of a large proportion of schools in various states of Sudan, due to the floods, torrents and rains that affected large parts of the country.” Couple of things including explicit mention of the month as “this month” changes frequently. Consider this change in the following: “In September 2020, the Ministry of Education declared a delay in the school opening date, initially set for the 27th of that month, to 22 November. This decision was made in response to the unpreparedness of many schools across different regions of Sudan, which were adversely affected by floods and heavy rainfall.” Y

The new curriculum controversy

“El-Tom believed that the general trend, regardless of the subject, is to take into account the student's age and the readiness of his mind to absorb the material” “His” to “their” and it’s explicitly in a quote and referenced as such. Y

“As for what is said about reducing the number of surahs of the Qur’an prescribed at a certain stage and the controversy that arises regarding them, El-Tom explained that choosing a surah for a six-year-old, for example, must be done based on certain goals and his ability to memorise and understand them without effort.” Reword to: “El-Tom addressed the debate about adjusting the number of Qur’an surahs for a specific stage. He clarified that when choosing a surah for a six-year-old, it should align with specific objectives and the child's ability to memorise and understand it effortlessly.” Y

“This task was cared by the National Center for Educational Curricula” Should “cared” be “carried out”?

• Yup. amended

“In particular the painting The Creation of Adam by Renaissance artist Michelangelo which sparked controversy, as it was asserted to be heretical.” Rewrite to: “Specifically, the painting The Creation of Adam by Renaissance artist Michelangelo caused controversy due to claims of it being heretical.” Y

“Around January 2021, social media witnessed several debates between Sudanese about the curricula, as well as the creation of accounts and pages that attack or support Omar Al-Qarai personally” Language could be better like: “In January 2021, discussions about the curricula emerged on social media among Sudanese individuals. Additionally, accounts and pages were created that either criticized or supported Omar Al-Qarai.” Y

“The crisis was exacerbated by the circulation of a video clip of the imam of the mosque, Muhammad Al-Amin Ismail, crying on the Friday's Khutbah, regretting what was stated in the new curricula, before attacking Al-Qarai.” Likewise the language here must be changed as discussed in previous feedback: “The situation intensified when a video clip of the mosque's imam, Muhammad Al-Amin Ismail, became public. In the video, during a Friday's Khutbah, he expressed regret over the content of the new curricula and subsequently voiced criticism of Al-Qarai.”

• rephrased

“…led by some imams does not stem from motives to preserve religion” “does” to “do” Y

“Prime Minister Abdallah Hamdouk formed a national committee to review the curricula, to submit its report after two weeks” “…and submit its report…” Y

“The task of the committee is to ensure that each subject has been prepared by a specialised committee, and contributes effectively to achieving the goals of high-quality education. The committee also ensures that the new curriculum adheres to professional and national standards, and that it is teachable.” This doesn’t read in Wikipedia’s tone. Specifically, it feels like it’s not on-topic to the article and is in the wrong tense (present instead of past). Consider shortening it to: “The committee ensured that specialists prepared each subject and that the curriculum met high-quality educational goals, professional and national standards, and was teachable.” Y

Formation of a new government

“Sudanese Prime Minister Abdallah Hamdouk issued a decision to relieve the ministers of the transitional government from their posts” “posts” to “positions” Y

“The statement indicated that the new formation would not include the name of a minister of education” Capitalise Minister of Education.

•  Done, although I had my doubts, see MOS:JOBTITLE

“prime minister Abdalla Hamdouk” Likewise Prime Minister. Y

“El-Tom considered his exclusion from the ministry through security check a disgrace to his reputation, which caused him "psychological harm"” Consider: “El-Tom considered his exclusion from the ministry due to a failed security check a “disgrace to his reputation”, which caused him "psychological harm".” Y

“He revealed that he had received calls to inquire as to what crime he could have committed, which could have caused him to be excluded from the ministry.” Consider rewording to: “He mentioned that he received calls questioning if he had committed any wrongdoing that might have led to his exclusion from the ministry.” Y

“letter to Hamdouk because Hamadouk sanctioned the new curriculum” Should it be “Hamdok”? Also found in the paragraph below. Please keep consistent spelling of this person’s name.Y

“without deleting any of the verses, and keeping all the units and lessons that were deleted from the mathematics textbooks.” I feel like instead of “deleting” it would be “removing” and “removed”. Y

“Hamdouk then met, in his office, delegations that included Islamic and Christian clerics in the presence of the Minister of Religious Affairs, Nasr al-Din Mufreh, to talk about the initiative to review and reconsider the curriculum that was developed during the period of Omer al-Qarray at the head of the National Curriculum Center.” Reword to something like: “Hamdok met with delegations of Islamic and Christian clerics, alongside the Minister of Religious Affairs, Nasr al-Din Mufreh, to discuss reviewing the curriculum developed under Omer al-Qarray's leadership at the National Curriculum Center.” Y

Citation 66 contains a photo of El-Tom (although again with a different version of his name). It would be great if a copyright-free image of him could be found and used to illustrate him, as having the Prime Minister’s photo instead could be confusing (for example when googling this article his photo appears instead of El-Tom).

I couldn't find any reference in the main body to "FAAS FSNAS FIMA" contained in his infobox. Consider referencing it in the main body where possible.

I feel as if the first paragraph in the Research section could fall under WP:REPCITE where it seems excessive and almost unnescary. I see it's his work specific to the subject referenced after each instance. Consider a Further reading section to contain his works (See Wikipedia:Further reading). In fact, a Bibliography section works even better (See WP:BIB) and would go before the References section (unlike Further reading which would go after). BritneyErotica (talk) 12:42, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

@BritneyErotica many thanks for the in-depth comments and for improving the article. I have amended as requested above, please feel free to review my response as for:

• Photo: Sudan laws for images is bit strange, by law any photo that is found in a government document (or website) is free (Under the 1996 law copyright does not extend to state emblems and symbols or official documents.^{[1996 Section 6]} "Official documents" means the official documents issued by the State or its institution, corporation or unit and which, by virtue of their specialization, are issued for publication to the public, including laws, Presidential or administrative orders, international agreements and judicial judgments, but not including military documents, secret agreements and deliberations of secret sessions in courts or legislative bodies".^{[1996 Section 3]} but all the government website still have copy right tag (see the Republic website for example. So sadly I did not find a free image that won't be immediately contested but removed Hamdouk photo, hopefully this will resolve the search results issue
• FAAS FSNAS FIMA I added the acronym with to Awards section, and removed FSNAS as it's a member not a fellow status
• Research: I made it into a sub-section to academic career. As for Bibliography section, it make sense for his books but he did not publish any apart from conference proceedings or himb being part of Task Force on Higher education and Society or knowledge network where you have many authors.

FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and changed the 8 remaining instances of "Hamdouk" to "Hamdok" for consistency. As per his Wikipedia article both are fine but the main name of his article spells it as "Hamdok" so I think it's best to stick with that (and it's the most popular when searching for him).

One more thing: I'm not sure on the relevancy of the remaining image used (See MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE). I feel as if it's more decorative than it is significant to El-Tom (it's significant to a specific moment within his life and work etc.). A Good Article does not need to be illustrated and in this case it was difficult to find an image for El-Tom so perhaps no images at all would be best. Unless you have any comments on this.

Apart from that I think it's close to passing. BritneyErotica (talk) 13:03, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping the name consistent, I thought I did that but maybe did it the other way around and forgot to check for other variations.

I removed the image for now. If I found a picture for El Tom in the future, I will put Hamdouk and Adam creation picture. FuzzyMagma (talk) 15:42, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

@BritneyErotica ping FuzzyMagma (talk) 16:50, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. I just made two small changes (capitalising Bachelor of Science and changing "Coronavirus as a pandemic" to "COVID-19 pandemic"). I've looked over everything else and I'm happy with where the article is at and so I will be passing it. BritneyErotica (talk) 13:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	Requires significant copy editing. Basic grammar (such as full stops) are misplaced. Much of the reading uses obscure language (such as "duels" in reference to a debate).
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	Reassessed after major copy edit. MOS:WTW must be addressed.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Reassessed after major copy edit. Currently looks good.
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Will be reassessed after major copy edit.
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	Uses questionable language. For example "attacking" and "fiercely" to describe intense criticism. See MOS:WTW.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.	I will hold this nomination (although I did consider a quick fail). There are significant failures in Good Article criteria 1. Well-written which contributes to failures in Good Article criteria 3. Neutral (See WP:GA?). It is important to note the previous Did you know nomination in March 2023 references copy edit issues, which have since gotten worse due to significant additions to the article. If you believe that you may not be able to fully address this feedback, you're more than welcome to request its failure and reach out to the Guild of Copy Editors (See WP:GOCER to submit a request (as soon as possible as they are having an August Copy Editing Blitz ending on the 19th August).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.