Talk:Mljet

St Paul

There is considerably more evidence (though none at hand, as I am posting from work) that St Paul was in fact shipwrecked in Malta, not Mljet. Rhialto 04:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I put a link in the article regarding the Mljet vs. Malta controversy. I believe that article leans toward Mljet having more evidence. I would be interesting in what you have. Even so the section regarding the "St. Paul Shipwreck" should hopefully not get deleted but maybe modified to include information regarding this controversy. --MarsRover 07:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The fact there is evidence linking the governor mentioned in the Bible with the Mediterranean island of Malta seems a lot more conclusive. But if it's one of the few things that gives Mljet local colour, a reference to the legend should remain in this article too. golden bells, pomegranates, prunes & prisms (talk) 17:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Editing other pages, I've since discovered that "Mljet"/Croatian nationalism colours much of the application such pages receive. This is truly a shame and says little about the worth of such editors' contributions. the roof of this court is too high to be yours (talk) 06:07, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Oddysseus

There are also local legends and places stating that he arrived at Malta, specifically the island of Gozo. Rhialto 04:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Since this is a legend, it will be hard to prove one way or the other. I called the section "Odysseus's cave" so it more centered around the cave since that is indisputable. And it does have the legend associated with it so I see no reason that cannot be included. Prehaps there is a way to include Malta in the article. If that is done probably need to fixup Malta or Gozo article to have something about Odysseus. --MarsRover 07:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Explaination as per Dr's request

Now, what is arguementive? Let's cross one-by-one. First, if you need closer definition of Desa, please refer to the House of Vojislavljević article. I think that this version is even more confusing because it bears no mention of how the island mysteriously vanished from Serbian hands. If you need exact mentions of Desa, please see the following: According to this [www.kroatien-online.com/en/tourism/islands/mljet.htm Croatian German tourist site]: In 1151, the grand prefect of Zahumlje, Desa, bestowed the entire island upon the Benedictines (from the abbey Pulsano at Monte Gargano in Apulia), who erected their abbey and church on the islet in Big Lake.; according to [www.apartments-vela-luka.com/island-mljet.asp this tourist site]: Mljet was under the rulership of the Zahumlje governor Desa in the year 1151, who gave it to the Benedictines from the abbey Pulsano on Monte Gorgano in Apuglia.. According to the History of the Serbian People by Vladimir Ćorović, Period II, Chapter 8: Za vreme ovih mađarsko-grčkih borbi Rašani se ne pominju kao mađarski saveznici. Veliki župan Uroš II, koji je bio mađarski prijatelj, beše potisnut, a kao njegov takmac izbio je Desa, njegov brat. Desa je oko 1150. god. postao gospodar Duklje, Trebinja i Zahumlja, verovatno posle rata s Grcima. Iz god. 1151. postoji jedna njegova povelja benediktinskom manastiru Sv. Marije na Monte Garganu, kojom mu je ustupio ostrvo Mljet. Which in English roughly translates to During there Hungarian-Greek fights the Serbs are not mentioned as Hungarian allies. Grand Prince Uroš II, who was a Hungarian friend, was pressed, and as his opponent Desa emerged, his brother. Desa around 1150 decame the Lord of Doclea, Travunia and Zachlumia, probably after the war with the Greeks. From the year of 1151 there is an edict of his to the Benedictine Monastery of Saint Mary on Monte Gargano, to which he gave the island of Mljet. And according to the anarcheological research of the forgotten Serbian tribe, the Neretvians by Marko Aleksić: Član raške vladarske dinastije, Desa, pre nego što je i sam kratkotrajno bio veliki župan Raške, vladao je u primorskim oblastima i tada je, 1151. godine na Mljetu podigao benediktinski manastir Sv. Marije. Which in English means: A member of the Rascian ruling dynasty, Desa, before he himself shortly served as the Grand Prince of Rascia, ruled in the coastal areas and then, in 1131 on Mljet raised a Benedictine monastery of Saint Mary.

Now, the island was incorporated into the (finally) united Serbian lands under Stefan Nemanja (please see his article). This is from the Serbian dynasties (Српске династије) by Andrija Veselinović and Radoš Ljušić, describing the boundries of Stefan Nemanja's realm: На западу је граница српске државе допирала до ушћа Цетине, обухватајући Травунију, Захумље и Неретљанску област са острвом Мљетом. or in English: On the West the border of the Serbian state reached the mouth of Cetina]], engulphing Travunia, Zahumlje and the Neretvian area with the island of Mljet. Now, if you need some persice sources, just tell me, but I think that this map is self-sufficient:

the Serbian Lands under Stefan Nemanja in the second half of the 12th century

Now, if you see the Korčula article: In 1222, Serbian King Stephen the First-crowned of Nemanja, now gifted his monasteries and lands on the island, referring to it as Krkar to his followers of the Benedictine Monastical Order on Mljet.

This image presents the Serbian Kingdom of Stefan Milutin at the end of the 13th century and beginning of the 14th century:

The the Serbian Kingdom of Stefan Milutin in 1282-1321, Note the island of Mljet

The following picture is the map of the Empire of Tsar Stefan Dušan (see his article) in the second quarter of the 14th century:

The map of the Tsardom of Emperor Stefan Dušan in the middle of the 14th century

Now, the 1357 is quitte confusing. I do not possess a scanner, so it will take me quitte a while to suply you with a unique map of expansions of the possessions of the Republic of Dubrovnik. It shows the correspnding year of the acquisition of a territory to Dubrovnik. On the island of Mljet, it says 1357. According to [the map of the Empire of Tsar Stefan Dušan (see his article) in the second quarter of the 14th century: Period Three, Chapter IX] of the book of V. Ćorović, Tsar Stefan Uroš gifted the island to his lesser nobility: Na državnom saboru u Skoplju, držanom prvih dana aprila 1357., u prisustvu carice majke i patrijarha Save, darovao je car Uroš 10. aprila ostrvo Mljet svojoj vlasteli Basetu Bivoličiću i Tripi Bućiću....

I believe (warning: Original research following) that the only reasonable explaination is that that lesser nobility accepted the rule of the Republic of Ragusa. However, you presented that it's odd that the island annexed it 50 years later. Well, not really. Usually, some time neads to pass before the full integration is made. The Rascian rulers ruled the southern Dalmatian Principalities for five to five and a half centuries before incorporating it. The Ottomans defeated the Serbs in 1371, but gave them a deceisive defeat in 1389. Serbia was fully incorporated into the Ottoman Empire in 1459, three quarters of a century after its first defeat.

That's some nice argumentation, unfortunatelly it's inherently flawed. I've checked out the articles you suggested and nowhere is Mljet mentioned by name, not even in references section. Furthermore, map presented in the Stefan Dusan article clearly excludes Mljet. What gives? I will need more specific, non-serbian, non-croatian sources (since those are obviously inherently biased) to support this addition. I won't revert anything for the time being though, so please, provide more independant sources. Thank you. --Dr.Gonzo 18:14, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

What did you mean about that map? Didn't you see the island? I presented you German & English tourist sources, next to Croatian and Serbian. But look closely to wiki, the amount of non-Serbian & non-Croatian sources on Serbo-Croatian history = is almost near 0. If you invalidate historical facts like that, you will have to simply delete everything. I have no idea what you meant, my friend, when you said that Mljet isn't mentioned. It's in every single outer-source...

I could scry out for more sources, but you should be more specific about what percisely do you object.

Bog! --HolyRomanEmperor 20:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, you're right, it's most unfortunate that there aren't more independant sources since historians in these parts have a nasty habit of twisting facts to serve the cause of politics. It is clear that Mljet was at one time under influence of the Serbian monarchs. I'm wondering what was the nature of that influence? Was there a proper feudal relationship involved or only nominal control? In any case Doclea, Travunia and Zachlumia changed alleigances frequently and stayed relatively independant for a long time before and after these events, so calling them Serbian lands is at least a little biased. I feel we need to be very clear when adressing facts on such local scale because they will not be adressed anywhere else. What I mean is, you can proclaim that Serbia controled a part of the Adriatic coast at one time in the History of Serbia article, and not go into too many specifics, but here you need to be very meticulous. I'll accept all your edits if you feel they are NPOV and historically accurate, because I can tell you're a honest good intentioned Wikipedian. I'm just trying to make sure we get this right ;) --Dr.Gonzo 21:42, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your compliments, Dr.Gonzo! :) I never called Duklja and the co. as Serbian lands; you yourself made an arguement that it would be biased. But the fact that Serbian rule was present over those places is undisputable. The southern Dalmatian Principalities were either semi-dependent or at least vassalaged of Rascia since the 9th century, but only since Stefan Nemanja's actions in [1166]-1168 the territories were fully united under one Serbian Land. According to some Yugoslav textbooks that I found, Mljet was a Benedicitne fief. The island almost didn't have any population whatsoever before the arrival of the Benedictine Order; just some Orthodox peasents that later worked for the Benedictines. The island itself was the last bastion of Serbian maritime possessions, and in reality the only naval base under the control of the House of Nemanjić. But the Benedictines were the real masters in-land. In 1222, King Stefan Uros expanded their domain to other islands, and in 1357 Emperor Stefan Dusan gifted the island to some of his closest nobility, ever since then, the island's de facto independent, and certainly outside Serbia.

If you need to understand the extent of influence on Mljet, the Benedictines were the real masters of the island, except for the military (naval) bases on the island, and the fact that they were sworn in an oath to serve and pay taxes to the Serbian rulers.

I can guarrentee the historical & factual acurracy of all my edits except one: the 1357 event. As you have already seen from my previous posts, it's quitte messy what happenned after that year (the joining of the Republic of Dubrovnik) and I'm afraid to go into Original Research if I dig in for a solution. Could you think of something?

All the best! P. S. I saw your contributions. I'm very busy right now, but as soon as I find time, I'll award you with a barnstar. Bog! --HolyRomanEmperor 21:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I can hardly be more useful, as I'm not a historian. I do read alot though, and am quite well versed on European and Croatian history, but not on such a small scale. I think you might have a much better grasp on it so all I ask is you make sure it's verifiable and NPOV. Thank you for taking the time to browse through my edit history, I have been trying very hard these past few days to get the frequent vandalism situation under control and by the book, I hope it all resolves as soon as possible. It's sad that there are those who find it necessary to bring their frustrations and anger here, as if starting edit wars will solve anything. Infact, thats why I insisted on providing sources for edits on this article because I don't want it to become another of those vandalized by anti-wikipedian users... Btw, thank you for the future barnstar, it means a lot ;) See you out there! --Dr.Gonzo 21:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Did anyone read this on http://www.otokmljet.com/ :

"Car Konstantin Porfirogenet u svom djelu "De administrando imperio" koje je napisao oko 950. godine piše da su otoci Mljet, Korčula, Hvar i Brač pod vlašću Hrvata Neretvana."

but earlier somebody put is as "serbian." why? --Jesuislafete 04:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

---

That is false info. If you refer to the actual book, you'll see: "[...] these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. [...] And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumoi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, [...] therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries".

You may find more info if you check out Pagania, the article on the Narentines. --PaxEquilibrium 17:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————

False, huh? Like I am going to believe that page that anyone can copy and edit. Try something more reliable, or better yet, just leave the page alone. --Jesuislafete 02:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Please show a little more good faith (I'm talking about your somewhat rude suggestion of me leaving the page - this is a free encyclopedia that anyone can edit). This is a little ridiculous, as most of modern Croatian historiography denies the "Of ruling an Empire", mainly because it calls the Narentines Serbs; and now you even dispute that it says that at all ;).

Due to nationalism, plenty of Croats & Serbs tend to bend facts across media, websites; etc. This is the case here - the insertion of an incorrect Croat POV, quite possibly to make it seem they were Croats.

The pages Pagania, Travunia, Zahumlje and even Serbs all deal with De Administrando Imperio. If you think correction is needed, please go to those articles (and itself).

Nice of you to put words in my mouth. I never said you couldn't edit the pages, just show some RELIABLE FACTS to back up your source, which you have failed to do, yet keep editing it in anyways. You have failed to provide any other than Wikipedia articles which are not substantial enough (given the fact anyone can edit them). I have showed you a reliable source to back up what I said above. It could be wrong, but until I see otherwise, I stand by what I had before. I am concerned over extremists trying to rewrite history, or put useless information. Once again, please show some good pages to back up what you say!! When you do, I will happily cease editing.

"Car Konstantin Porfirogenet u svom djelu "De administrando imperio" koje je napisao oko 950. godine piše da su otoci Mljet, Korčula, Hvar i Brač pod vlašću Hrvata Neretvana." >>>>If this statement is wrong, give me other sources saying it is. Thank you --Jesuislafete 00:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not putting words in your mouth - you have to understand how things work in Wikipedia. Here, articles do not work independently, but like a chain. If you think that part of the chain needs to be altered - you cannot leave the alien element of this now mutant chain.

I am going to cite the book:

"[...] these same Serbs decided to depart to their own homes, and the emperor sent them off. [...] And since what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called country of the Zachlumoi and Terbounia and the country of the Kanalites were under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, [...] therefore the emperor settled these same Serbs in these countries"

Now, here's "Istorija" of Cmilja Marjanović-Dušanić and Marko Šujica:

36. glava - O Paganima koji se nazivaju i Neretljani i zemlji u kojoj sada obitavaju:

"Zemlja u kojoj stanuju sada Pagani takođe su ranije držali Romani ... Isti Pagani vode poreklo od nekrštenih Srba iz vremena onog arhonta koji je prebegao caru Irakliju ... Pagani se zovu zbog toga što nisu primili krštenje u ono vreme, kada su pokršteni svi Srbi. Pagani na jeziku Slovena znači nekršteni ... U Paganiji su naseljeni gradovi: Mokro, Verulja, Ostrok, Slavineca. A drže i ova ostrva: veliko ostrvo Korčula, na kome se nalazi i grad; drugo veliko ostrvo je Mljet ... drugo veliko ostrvo je Hvar; drugo veliko ostrvo je Brač."

A 32. glava govori O Srbima i zemlji u kojoj sada obitavaju:

".... Srbi odluče da se vrate u svoje zemlje i car ih otpusti .... I pošto današnja Srbija i Paganija i zemlja Zahumljana i Travunija i zemlja Konavljana behu pod vlašću cara Romeja, a te zemlje opuste od Avara, to car u ovim zemljama naseli iste Srbe...".

Look at the book of Vladimir Ćorović, Chapter Organization of the Slavic tribes in the Balkans:

Na osnovu vesti kod cara Konstantina Porfirogenita iza sredine X i vesti Dukljanske Hronike iz XII veka može se dati dosta siguran pregled o geografskoj podeli naših oblasti X-XII veka. Granica između srpskog i hrvatskog područja u sredini X veka bila je na rekama Cetini i Plivi; Hrvatskoj pripadale su oblasti od Livna do Jajca. Od Cetine počinjalo je područje Neretljana, čuvenih gusara, koje Porfirogenit pominje kao potomke nepokrštenih Srba. Njihovo područje obuhvatalo je tri županije: makarsku, rastočku (od Imotskog do Ljubuškog) i "dalensku" (možda "dalmensku" = Dalmisium, Dalmesium – Omiš). U njihovoj vlasti behu ostrva Mljet, Korčula, Brač i Hvar. Glavni neretljanski gradovi bili su: Vrulja (danas Gornja Brela), Makarska, Ostrog i Lavćen vrg Graca; ali od svih je najznatniji tvrdi Omiš. Na Neretvi, dokle je dopirala neretljanska granica, počinjala je arhontija zahumska.

Please react immediately - do not be quite, forcing me to attract your attention by reverting your changes, like happened last time. With regards, --PaxEquilibrium 20:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for finding some other sources. I still cannot believe that website is wrong (and it is an official type one too) but I noticed that you have books written by Serbs....I truly wonder if it is objective (and if the croatian website is objective too.) There is a book in my university's library written by a serb on dubrovnik which claims it was founded and mainly populated with serbs...while the others written by americans say differently. so i take many things written by serbs on croatian history with a grain of salt. its very easy to change some bits of history.--Jesuislafete 04:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

He he - I would advise you not to look books according to which ethnic origin their writers, but according to their quality. Vladimir Corovic is, along with Ferdo Sisic, the most famous Yugoslav historian (and the one most famous Serbian historian). If it's necessary, I will (I have them) scan and post direct pages from a copy of the DAI. The book that you noticed, what's the title? Is it perhaps "Srpstvo Dubrovnika" written by Jeremija D. Mitrovic? If that's the one - well, I've read the book and while there are good arguements in it, it's largely bad. Take also the fact that he's not a notable writer. Never look by ethnicity! By the way, most early Croatian historians (Sisic) use DAI when they write about Serbs (writing exactly what it says). I believe that that Croatian website (as websites are always full of oh-you-know-what-kind of info) in truth contains something put in there personally by the will of 2-3 people who are trying to make a point and endorse original research. Cheers! --PaxEquilibrium 17:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Disputed tags

The sections on St. Pauls shipwreck and Odysseus's cave should have been dealt with long ago. Why are those tags still there? Is the debate still open? --Jesuislafete 22:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there ever was a debate. --PaxEquilibrium 12:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ha ha, me either. But seriously, something should be done about it, those tags look awful, and I believe it could be written in a way which explains its controversy. Like...

• According to the Bible, St. Paul the Apostle is said to have shipwrecked on the island of Mljet in 61 AD on his way to Rome. The story in chapter 27 and 28 of the Acts of the Apostles says that St. Paul spent 3 months of the island of Mljet preaching the Gospel. The beach of Saplunara is believed to be that area the St. Paul landed and also named after the Latin word sabulum meaning sand. The official stamp of the Mljet County from 1850 until 1921 had the figure of St. Paul on it. However, some historians doubt the authenticity of the passage, claiming many Biblical stories and time lines do not factually add up.

just an example. Anyone have any better ideas? --Jesuislafete 17:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Re

I'm sorry about your situation. However i don't know how can i help you. Maybe you have to take a break from Balkans pages. However i reported his behavior: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:DIREKTOR. Regards --AndreaFox2 (talk) 17:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Mongoose introduction

Apparently, mongoose introduction didn't happen in "Middle ages", but at the beginning of 20th century by decision of Austria-Hungary's Ministry of Agriculture. According to this article (written in Croatian), 11 specimens (7 male and 4 female) were introduced in August 25th 1910. --- Martin (talk) 11:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Good catch. I have amended the article along these lines, using a different source. GregorB (talk) 08:37, 8 June 2012 (UTC)