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Changes

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I've rewritten the article adding a couple of new sources. Please don't add information that is not present in sources, or which is supported by unreliable sources. If you have questions or comments, let's discuss them here. Alaexis¿question? 12:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ingorokva source shouldn't be deleted

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@Alaexis What makes Pavle Ingorokvas work controversial? or what does year of the publishing have to do with whether or not its included? Lemabeta (talk) 10:33, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's keep the discussion in one place. Alaexis¿question? 23:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not everything written in the origins was from Pavle Ingorokva smh. I will restore the writings of ancient historians. Lemabeta (talk) 11:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The writings themselves are alright but the way you are using them here is not. To take the first sentence (According to Strabo tribes that reside neighbour to Dioskuria are Svans(Georgian tribe)) as a example, there are two problems with it
  1. Why is it included in this article? Strabo doesn't mention Misimians anywhere in 11.2.19. We need reliable sources which connect this particular source to the Misimians in order to include this statement. Everything else you've added to the Origins section has the same problem.
  2. Strabo obviously doesn't say that they are Svans or that they are a Georgian tribe. This is a less serious issue and can be fixed by changing the wording to clarify that it's not Strabo but rather modern historians who believe that Strabo's Soanes are related to Svans. Alaexis¿question? 21:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have sources of it, i will add them today or in the following days. Lemabeta (talk) 07:38, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide the quotations (or page numbers for Allen and Alemany) in which the 3 non-Georgian sources say that "Misimian tribe ... are Svans." I only see them saying that Soanes are Svans, which isn't disputed, and is irrelevant to this article. Alaexis¿question? 21:50, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why specifically Non-Georgian sources? Is it a Wikipedia policy that Georgians can not write researches about their own history? Lemabeta (talk) 12:18, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First 2 or 3 citations say that Misimians are the Soanes tribe mentioned by Strabo, and later sources say Soanes are Svans. Thats why they are linked. They arent irrelevant Lemabeta (talk) 12:28, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously we can use books by Georgian, Abkhaz or Chinese scholars. However it's well-known that often scholarship is affected by the politics and therefore it might be notable that it's the Georgian scholars who equate the Misimians with Svans.
It's not just my opinion, see Nation-building in the Post-Soviet Borderlands, pp. 55-56
I think that this is a great summary that we can use in the article. Alaexis¿question? 13:53, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Roland Topchishvili the scholar who i have used in this article mentions in his works that Abasgoi were a Northwest Caucasian speaking ethnic group, therefore associating his work with the general bias of some scholars is wrong. Moreover, his experise can not be questioned as he has been researching and writing all his life.
Futhermore, this article isnt about Lortkipanidze, therefore mentioning the so called his "bias" has no place in this article.
You can write the opinion of Abkhazian authors, but i think its not necessary since its already mentioned in the article.
Moreover, Georgians(Svans, Zans) truly were an ancient inhabitants of Abkhazia. Alongside Abasgoi may might have been NWC speaking people. But as many historians agree NWC speaking populations should have appeared in South Caucasus at around the same time as when Sarmatian conquests took place. But this is out of the topic. Lemabeta (talk) 14:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added another citation of Misimians being Soanes mentioned by Strabo and other ancient/middle-ages historians. What's noteworthy is that the author discusses all the opinions of other historians including Z.Anchabadze, Kaukchishvili, Ingorokva and many others, as well as ancient historians. He also goes into the toponymics of upper Abkhazia to furthermore prove the Svan presence in the region. Lemabeta (talk) 15:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tomáš Hoch source

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@Alaexis How relevant is the opinion of Tomáš Hoch in the article, a person who isn't a historian [1][2]. Nowhere in the available information about him it's mentioned to be his expertise. He's a humanitarian who writes about ethno-politics and mostly about breakaway regions and de-facto states. What makes his opinion worth including if it's not his expertise? Lemabeta (talk) 18:25, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair enough, but as a political scientist he's an expert on the influence of contemporary politics on historical research, which is something we should consider when using sources published in Georgia or Abkhazia.
Let me try to create a new version which hopefully follow both NPOV and Verifiability purposes. The structure would be
  • What the classical authors write about the Misimians
  • Overview of the scholarship based on Smith et al
  • Svan - Mushuan - Misiminian connection
Thus we start from uncontroversial stuff, then we do the overview of the scholarship and then describe the hypothetical connection to the Svans. (I'm using hypothetical in a positive sense, this hypothesis is quite convincing). Alaexis¿question? 20:28, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll remove Hoch since he doesn't cite his sources and will also remove The Caucasus & Globalization as it's also not a historical publication. In any case we have enough sources for the Svan connection. Alaexis¿question? 20:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's written by a historian, therefore it is relevant[3] Lemabeta (talk) 08:07, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Origins section: mentioning Heniochi and Svans

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One thing I'm sure about is that this article is not the right place to talk about Heniochoi and Svans in general. We have articles about them and that's where that information should go. We can ask for an outside input if you want. Alaexis¿question? 20:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe previously created section of Origins was better arguemented since it was mentioning that the Misimians were the Svans mentioned by Strabo according to many modern historians. Mentioning of Heniochi was only in the context of determining the geographic placement of Misimian tribe to furthermore prove the "Svanness" of Misimian tribe which itself is an argument of origins, therefore i think it should be mentioned as it was. Moreover, there is no seperate article for Soanes tribe of Upper Abkhazia, as Soanes are associated by modern historians to Misimians. Lemabeta (talk) 06:41, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By the way its written by you, it sounds like the only argument the historians have is name similarity. I will be reverting the changes as it was and lets discuss it further Lemabeta (talk) 06:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
3O Response: I am kind of leaning towards Alaexis here. I agree that most of the information they removed was COATRACK-y stuff about Svans. Focus on how sources connect them to the Misimians. Of the English sources cited to that sentence, one is really just talking about etymology, and the other I can't find the claim at all. Lemabeta, please provide translated titles and quotes for the sources in Georgian.
I think it is possible that the Svans could be worth mentioning. If the consensus is that it is controversial whether they come from the Svans, that is still something that merits inclusion. Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 13:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC) Snowmanonahoe (talk · contribs · typos) 13:42, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since in the ancient writings there's no ethnic identification of Misimians its a matter of debate amongst historians, thats why mentioning of this Soanes and Svan-Colchs are necessary since it establishes the argument the historians are making. That the Svano-Colchs, Egr-Svans are Misimians.
Gasviani source [4]
Translated pages
"Although the territorial settlement of the Misimians is a matter of difference of opinion, the Byzantine writers clearly indicate that they were the direct border of the Apsils and Abazgs from the north, on the southern slope of the Caucasus. For example, according to Strabo's report, the Svans bordered Dioscuria directly: "The Svans hold the mountainous part of the Caucasus, which rises above the Dioscuria".In the writings of Claudius Ptolemy, in the northeastern part of the Black Sea, Svan-Kolkhs are named among other tribes. Agathias Scholasticus writes that the Misimians live to the north and a little to the east of the Apsil tribe. According to his own information, the people of Misimiania also bordered Abazgia and Svaneti.Menander leaves us a similar message, according to which the Misimians were directly bordered by the Svans from the east, the Caucasus Range and the Alans from the north, Lazika (Egris) from the south, and the Abazgs from the west.Therefore, Pavle Ingoroqva concludes that the Misimians lived in the Kodori valley (from Tsebeldi to Klukhori gorge).Z. Anchabadze defines the location of the Misimians in the same way - they lived in Dali (in the upper part of Kodori) and Tsebeldi.According to Ingoroqva, part of the Svano-Kolkhs living on the lands of historical Kolkheti or Egris is the Svan population, who, according to Strabo, lived along the central and western belt of the Caucasus Range (above Dioskuria). All this points to the fact that both in the former Svaneti, as well as on the southern slopes of the Caucasus located to the west and east of it, from the Likh ridge rather than from the East. of Abkhazia to the north-western mountains of (Egris), the Svan population lived."p.201-202
...Armenian historian Faustos Byzantiel also points to the presence of Svans in historical Abkhazia, who like "Svano-Colch" refers to them by the name of "Egr-Svan" p.202
"It is true that even today there is a difference of opinion about the ethnic identity of Misimians, but the majority of specialists consider them to be Svans. For example, S. Kaukhchishvili, whom G. Melikishvili and P. They support Ingoroqva, they believe that "Misimiani" is a changed form of the self-name of the Svans - "Mushvani" and It undoubtedly means Svan.According to P. Ingoroqva, in the tribal name of Misimian, the suffix "ani" is a determinant of the base of Georgian ethnic names - of the same type as Svani, Zani, Chani, Sani.
"Based on Georgian and foreign sources K. Kekelidze points out that the Svans lived in the neighborhood of the Magrel-Lazes, Apsils and Abazgebs - along the southern part of the Caucasus range. In sources, they are bordering the Euxine Pontus" p.202
"According to Muskhelishvili, Misimians were Svans therefore Svan tribe. He writes: "Svan tribe of Misimians must be the Ptolemy's mentioned "Svano-Colchs" and "Egro-Suans" of Fausto the Byzantine, with the opinion that these were the Svans subjugated by the Kingdom of Egris." p.203
"If we compare all the data, it will be beyond doubt that Svans (i.e. Svan tribes, including Misimians) in ancient times in the territory of Abkhazia occupied significant territory" p.203.
Same argument that the Misimians are Soanes mentioned by Strabo are mentioned by this source[5] and this source[6]
This source itself already mentions Misimians as Svans and also connects the name of Misimians to Mushvan[7].
It is necessary for it to be mentioned since most modern historians also other than the ones mentioned here also identify Misimians as Svans and connect them to Soanes of Strabo and "Svano-Colchs" and "Eger-Svans". Lemabeta (talk) 15:15, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Snowmanonahoe@Lemabeta
Just to be clear, the Svan connection *is* mentioned in the version I propose. Alaexis¿question? 19:49, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Svan connection only through the name but not the connection of Misimian to Soanes of Strabo or Ptolemys Svano-Colchs, or Faustus Byzantines Eger-Svans. Thats why its necessary to mention them as well, because historians consider "Soanes", "Svano-Colchs" and "Eger-Svans" to be same Svan population which is mentioned as Misimians. Lemabeta (talk) 08:28, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added them to the article. Alaexis¿question? 09:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Here are the problems with the Origins section. Due to these issues I believe that this version is superior to the current one.

  • There is no scholarly consensus that the Misimians are related to Svans (Graham Smith et al explicitly say that it's a matter of controversy, see Nation-building in the Post-Soviet Borderlands: The Politics of National Identities, pp. 55–56.)
  • The classical accounts of Svans and Colchs do not belong here as we have separate articles about them. Here we should simply note that some scholars link the Misimians to them and add wikilinks. Alaexis¿question? 06:42, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The reason that the possible relations to Svan is written in origins section and not in the beginning of the article is that there's no consensus among scholars if they were Svan or not. Lemabeta (talk) 08:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems that the discussion is going nowhere, so I've requested a third opinion. Alaexis¿question? 09:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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