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Wrong map

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The map used in the infobox is a wrong map. It shows Macedo de Cavaleiros municipality. Page Up 02:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed it. But you could have done the same, be bold! Regards! Afonso Silva 09:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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IPA for Mirandense for the word/ name "douro"/ "Douro"

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I reinstated the IPA to before it was changed, when an IP changed IPA: [mi'rɐ̃dɐ dɨɫ 'dowru] to IPA: [mi'rɐ̃dɐ dɨɫ 'dɐwru]. More than that, I will not do, as I have not kept up with developments in the IPA. However, I am familiar enough with it to be able to follow changes. I would like an opinion on the change from IPA: [mi'rɐ̃dɐ dɨɫ 'dowru] to IPA: [mi'rɐ̃dɐ dɨɫ 'dowrʊ]. Merely referring to the Astur-Leonese IPA does not justify the change, especially when anyone can change the information at any moment, as was done here, at which moment there were three /u/ sounds, to here, where the sound IPA: [ʊ] was introduced. The examles here are mind-boggling — I speak a number of the languages in which examples are provided and the sounds in the words cited vary widely between them. Nuvolet, as the editor who introduced IPA: [ʊ], and colleagues whose work I am familiar with, Kwamikagami, or who have worked on this article, Mr KEBAB, your insights would be highly valued. Thank you, regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 12:43, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Rui Gabriel Correia: I'd say it simply doesn't matter. In European Portuguese, all unstressed vowels are mid-centralized, so you could write [mɪˈɾɐ̃dɐ ðʊ ˈðowɾʊ] for the EP pronunciation, but we don't because it is a phonetic detail that reputable sources don't include in their transcriptions (including the JIPA article, the only source I'm aware of which mentions this phenomenon). I imagine Mirandese is virtually the same in that regard. If there are convincing arguments for not using [ʊ] in Mirandese transcriptions then we should edit Help:IPA/Astur-Leonese to reflect that. There should be no discrepancies between that guide and Mirandese IPA's on WP, unless we just want to confuse readers (then we may simply delete that guide instead :P)
It's true that [ʊ] can be used for three different sounds (which don't sound that different from each other). I introduced that distinction into near-close near-back rounded vowel to make that article more inclusive. IMO it was a necessary change. The Mirandese sound is most certainly near-back, I don't know about its height (it's probably somewhat variable). Mr KEBAB (talk) 12:58, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, @Mr KEBAB:, this helps. I will wait to hear from others (I see that user Novulet last edited in May). Meanwhile, I have written to a professor of Mirandese; hope he gets back to me. As for the difficulties that we have with the IPA, I fully agree with you. Measured with precision instruments, most people have an almost unique voice print, which means that we can only at best arrive at median approximates to describe sounds. Thanks for taking the time. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 13:30, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Rui Gabriel Correia: Obviously, the cardinal vowel system has its limits (and [ʊ], as you know, isn't even cardinal but something between [ʉ ~ u ~ o]), as do formants. Phoneticians do the best they can, but there's still a huge room for improvement. That's why I'd take both vowel charts and formant charts with a grain of salt and would preferably take a look at multiple charts and perform an auditory analysis myself (obviously, that's inappropriate for Wikipedia, unless the information I want to change is already original research) to get a fuller idea about phonetic ranges of vowels in a certain language. Mr KEBAB (talk) 14:07, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Mr KEBAB:. I would not want to inadvertently take too much of anyone's time over what in reality is a small issue. So this is my last contribution on this. I found these two sources (one written and one audio).

  • 1. Convenção Ortográfica da Língua Mirandesa, published jointly by the local authorities at Miranda do Douro and Lisbon University, which you can find here
    • 1.a. The same IPA chart, on the Mirandese Wikipedia here
  • 2. Youtube video by Mirandese author, translator, linguist and a trustee of the Mirandese Language Academy, Alfredo Cameirão.

Hope to run into you more frequently. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Rui Gabriel Correia: Thanks. In that pdf they use broad IPA, pretty much exactly the same as the one we use for Portuguese on Wikipedia. The unstressed vowels are written [i, ɨ, u, ɐ], but the actual realization may as well be [ɪ, ɯ̽, ʊ, ə] (it's unfortunate that the unrounded [ʊ] doesn't have its own symbol but just an unofficial one, which is [ω]), as in Lisbon Portuguese. I don't know. I guess we can change [ɪ, ʊ] to [i, u] on Help:IPA/Astur-Leonese, but Mirandese is only one of three dialects/languages covered there.
As far as the video is concerned, I watched only the first 2-3 minutes and my impression is that the quality of the unstressed /u/ is variable. There may be some mid-centralization (or very slight unrounding, as the case may be with unstressed rounded vowels), I'm not sure. Mr KEBAB (talk) 23:46, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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