Talk:Ming treasure voyages/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 15:33, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get to this shortly.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:33, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy ping @Sturmvogel 66: Aza24 (talk) 18:13, 25 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No DABs and external links OK
Images properly licensed--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Move the link for Chinese tributary system to "tributaries of China"

I linked it to the wiki article "List of tributary states of China" instead [1], as it's about the states rather than the system. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't use Yongle Emperor in close proximity, particularly in the first two sentences of the Creation of the fleet section.

Done [2]. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am unsure if the trading ships are the same as the treasure ships. Clarify

Done in the Personnel and organization subsection. --Cold Season (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

others to ~~command~~ 27,000 "lead"

Done [3]. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tell the reader what the Western Ocean is and what Wang Jinghong's role was.

I described the Western Ocean in the Geography subsection [4]. Wang Jinghong's role is already described in the Personnel subsection. --Cold Season (talk) 07:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Watch your overlinking. Install this script to help you identify them: [[User:Evad37/duplinks-alt]]

Removed. I kept the first link per subsection if that's ok. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't think the name of the branch of the Min River that the fleet used on its departure is important.

Rewrote it [5]. --Cold Season (talk) 03:42, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than just give a laundry list of places that were visited, orient the reader to the locations of the cities, islands and areas. And amplifying the details of the voyage through the South China Sea and Strait of Malacca would probably be helpful as well.

I think the Geography subsection might have this orienting purpose. I wrote the Course sections in a bland but straightforward way. --Cold Season (talk) 08:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More in a bit.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:52, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
They were met with hostility from Alagakkonara, ~~so they left~~. Awkward. Perhaps "and quickly departed.

Reworded [6]. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who is Hou Xian?

I briefly described him in the Personnel subsection. --Cold Season (talk) 22:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

committing piracy ~~towards~~ neighboring countries "against"

Done [7]. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Taizong Shilu records Malacca, Java, Champa, Semudera, Aru, Cochin, Calicut, Lambri, Pahang, Kelantan, Jiayile, Ormuz, Bila, Maldives, and Sunla as stops for this voyage.[58]
The fleet sailed to Champa,[70][73] Kelatan,[73] Pahang,[73] Malacca,[70][73] Palembang,[73][74] Java,[72][73] Lambri,[72][73] Lide,[72] Aru,[72] Semudera,[72][73] Ceylon,[72][73] Jiayile (opposite Ceylon),[72] Cochin;[72][73] and Calicut.[72][73] They proceeded to Liushan (Maldive and Laccadive Islands),[73][75] Bila (Bitra Atoll),[75] Sunla (Chetlat Atoll),[75] and Hormuz. Redundant? And some links may be necessary.

I prefer not to mix information from historical sources with information in the voice of modern authors. Links added. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Shaliwanni (possibly Cannanore), Liushan (Maladive and Laccadive Islands), Hormuz, Lasa, Aden, Mogadishu, Brava, Zhubu, Why are some of these italicized? Because they're unknown? Have you told the reader the significance of the italics anywhere?

It is to indicate transliteration (e.g., pinyin) from a foreign language. I have not. I do not think I should make a note of the style. See MOS:FOREIGNITALIC. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

for their dispatch to escort foreign envoys home Awkward.

Reworded [8]. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You have a couple of different possibilities for Ganbali in separate places. Consolidate the alternatives.

I pointed it to the notes [9]. --Cold Season (talk) 07:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Down to Aftermath. I'll mostly be offline until Wednesday.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:11, 26 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Sturmvogel 66: What's the status of the review. It's been a while. --Cold Season (talk) 21:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It has, and my apologies.

Looking over the article, you dive almost straight into the voyages with a minimum of preparatory information, which causes structural problems as you cover info as to the leadership, geography, etc. well after they're first mentioned. I strongly suggest that you move at least the majority of the goals, personnel and geography sections to the background section to provide more context for the voyages and to introduce the leaders and composition of the fleets to the readers. The aftermath section should cover the results/consequences of the voyages and the political struggles within the regime in more depth.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:42, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Sturmvogel 66: I've created new sections in the "Background" section where I've moved introductory content (used to be in the impact section), as you suggested about the leadership, geography..

The rest is a bit too in-depth for preparatory information and goes beyond the "Course" section into examination/analysis territory. I prefer to keep the structuring for the results/consequences of the voyages (which is the "Goals and consequences" section) and the political struggles (which is the "Policy and administration" section) as is, as my reasoning is that not solely the aftermath but also the development throughout the voyages is relevant. --Cold Season (talk) 00:43, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Much better, though you've got a ton of duplicate links that need to be eliminated throughout the article. And be sure that you've linked the first mention of a term, not a later appearance.

I've removed a couple of duplicate links (checked per first-ranked subsection due to length of article). --Cold Season (talk) 03:26, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In 1403, he issued an imperial order to start the immense construction project of the treasure fleet.[8] Zheng He was ordered to initiate the construction of the fleet. Combine these two sentences.

My concern is WP:SYN as I can not verify when if it was the same order. I've remove the latter line for now (probably more relevant when an article for the fleet is created anyway). --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good to see a link to treasure ship to distinguish them from ordinary trading ships. Might be worthwhile to refer to the trading ships as merchant ships every so often.

There's only one reference to trading ships at the moment. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Link or provide a brief explanation the eunuch's civil service ranks. And explain that the eunuchs were rivals to the bureaucracy, nobles and military factions as well.

To the first point, I've instead simplified it (stating that they were employed in the civil service [10]) as there is no Wiki article that deals with it in this period and the ref gives that info as is. To the second point, this is examined in the "Policy and administration" subsection. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Again, not sure that how the fleet used the Wuhumen is actually important. If you disagree then you need to link to it.

Linked. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but you've told the reader three times that it's part of the Min River. The first time suffices.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed them [11]. --Cold Season (talk) 10:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't like mixing italicized and non-italicized geographic names as I think it confuses the ordinary reader. These names are all exotic and unfamiliar so I see no value in italicizing those using Pinyin names as opposed to those that use their native names.

It follows MOS:FOREIGNITALIC. I can't use the English (guessing you meant this with "native") names, as the identification of these place names given in the Chinese language are not fully certain per the references. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You need to double check these names as some have multiple spellings. I'm pretty sure that Magadishu is actually Mogadishu and Djofar is Dhofar.

Done. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the third para of the Situation near the end section, you're using civil too often, use bureaucracy/bureaucrats throughout the article to avoid repetition.

Done. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The withdrawal of Ming China's treasure fleet left an enormous void in the dominance over the Indian Ocean. awkward

Reworded [12]. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

cessation of the expeditions was partly due to the considerable expense awkward

Reworded [13]. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just moving phrases around didn't help much, IMO. Howabout "...the heavy costs partly contributed to the ending of the expeditions" or something similar?

I have used your wording [14].--Cold Season (talk) 10:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Diverse groups of people from across the maritime countries awkward

Reworded [15]. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

was the supraordinate power in the region, not cause disturbances towards neighboring territories awkward and replace supraordinate with dominant/hegemonic, etc.

Reworded [16]. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I tweaked this one a bit, feel free to rephrase if you like.

It is good. --Cold Season (talk) 10:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

significantly boosted the lucrative maritime commerce. awkward

Reworded [17]. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the information in the first paragraph of the Geography and society section could be moved into the regions section of the Background. Particularly the info how the movements were governed by the monsoons in the Indian Ocean. --Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:11, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think the monsoon content--about how the winds affect the routes--is so specialized that it would be detrimental to place it that far up the article. --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps so, but I'd still add one sentence to the Region section saying that the fleet's movements took advantage of the monsoon winds or somesuch without any further detail.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have added it [18]. --Cold Season (talk) 10:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Sturmvogel 66: --Cold Season (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Sturmvogel 66: --Cold Season (talk) 17:18, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Cold Season: Would you like me to run through this since Sturm is busy? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 15:23, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: Sure. Thank you. --Cold Season (talk) 19:09, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria

GA Criteria

GA Criteria:

1
1.a Y

1.b Y
2
2.a Y

2.b Y

2.c Y

2.d Y
3
3.a Y

3.b Y
4
4.a Y
5
5.a Y
6
6.a Y

6.b Y

No DAB links Y
No dead links Y
No missing citations Y

Discussion

You may wish to switch over all refs to {{Sfn|name|date|page(s)}} template, for ease of use, but its not strictly neccesary.

Prose Suggestions

Please note that almost all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion. Any changes I deem necessary for the article to pass GA standards I will bold.

Lede

by Ming China's treasure fleet suggest by the treasure fleet of the Ming dynasty of China.
The grand project resulted in seven far-reaching ocean voyages to the coastal territories and islands in and around t suggest removing seven as superfluous.
The first three voyages reached up to Calicut on India's Malabar Coast, suggest changing up to out, or remove up to entirely, as it currently suggests a geographic "up", which is not the case.
the fleet traveled up to the Arabian Peninsula and East Africa. suggest changing up to to as far as, same reason.
which served to project Chinese power and wealth to the known world. "known world" is generally from a Western POV (i.e. whatever the Westerner Europeans are aware of at the time) suggest their known world to clarify.
were willing to declare themselves tributaries of China. suggest changing were willing to declared to declared for simplicity.
captured the Sinhalese Kotte kingdom captured seems like a weird word for this, perhaps defeated or invaded

Naval power

Suggest merging this and the "creation of the fleet" section together to one section, probably named "creation of the fleet".

Creation of the fleet

Under the reign of the Yongle Emperor, Ming China suggest Under the reign of the Yongle Emperor, the Ming dynasty of China
Existing ships have also been converted to serve in the treasure fleet for the sea voyages, but this can only be said with certainty for 249 ships ordered in 1407. suggest Existing ships were also converted to serve in the treasure fleet, however only 249 ships ordered in 1407 to have been converted can be confirmed.

Regions

The monsoon winds in general affected how the fleet sailed through the South China Sea and Indian Ocean suggest changing in general to generally

Second voyage

The Chinese would use the voyages to keep surveillance over Java suggest The Chinese would use further voyages to keep surveillance over Java

Third voyage

It was addressed to Zheng He, Wang Jinghong, and Hou Xian. suggest , addressed to Zheng He, Wang Jinghong, and Hou Xian.
but were repeatedly defeated in battle against the invading Chinese troops suggest but were repeatedly defeated in battle by the invading Chinese troops
From then on, the treasure fleet did not experience hostilities during visits to Ceylon on subsequent voyages suggest removing on subsequent voyages.

Fourth voyage

On 18 December 1412, the Yongle Emperor issued the order for the fourth voyage. Zheng He and others were commanded to lead it. suggest On 18 December 1412, the Yongle Emperor issued the order for the fourth voyage, led by Zheng He and others.
Zheng escorted back to their countries during the fourth voyage than just close neighbors suggest Zheng escorted back to their countries during the fourth voyage rather than just close neighbors
Zheng was ordered to launch a punitive attack against the usurper and restore Zain al-'Abidin as the rightful king punitive really only makes sense if there isn't a strong goal, suggest just Zheng was ordered to launch restore Zain al-'Abidin as king
In retaliation, Sekandar led his forces to attack the Ming forces and was defeated. He reportedly attacked with "tens of thousands" of soldiers suggest changing to Sekandar led his forces, reportedly "tens of thousands" of soldiers, against the Ming forces, but was defeated.

Fifth voyage

the aim of which was to return the 18 ambassadors and to reward their kings suggest in order to return the 18 ambassadors and to reward their kings.
On 8 August 1419, suggest By 8 August 1419,
The accompanied ambassadors were received a suggest the accompanying ambassadors or perhaps just the ambassadors

Nanjing garrison

Meanwhile, Zhu Gaozhi inherited the throne as the Hongxi Emperor on 7 September 1424 can't claim to be an expert on Chinese imperial inheritance; was Zhu Gaozhi always going to be the emperor on the death of his father, or was there some form of council involved in installing him? If it was a direct father to son inheritance, suggest changing inherited the throne here to was coronated as, as he inherited it the second he died, and 7 September is merely when he was coronated; if there was some other method of choosing, suggest mentioning this.
The Hongxi Emperor was hostile to the undertaking of the treasure voyages. On 7 September 1424, he terminated further treasure voyages. suggest The Hongxi Emperor was hostile to the undertaking of the treasure voyages and terminated further voyages the day he was coronated.
On 25 March 1428, the Xuande Emperor ordered Zheng and others to supervise the rebuilding and repair of the Great Bao'en Temple at Nanjing. must mention the accession of the Xuande emperor as you did for the Hongxi.

Seventh voyage

Zheng and his associates had the Liujiagang and Changle inscriptions inscribed suggest Zheng and his associates had the Liujiagang and Changle inscriptions created

Situation near the end

but also kept on trading with India and East Africa suggest and also kept on trading with India and East Africa

Causes of cessation

when eunuchs wielded their power to enrich themselves through extortion and persecute their critics. suggest when eunuchs wielded their power to enrich themselves through extortion and to persecute their critics.
because they tried to safeguard their interests suggest changing tried to wanted

Goals and consequences

Ming China intervened with the local affairs of foreign states and asserted itself in foreign lands suggest Ming China intervened into the local affairs of foreign states and asserted itself in foreign lands

Policy and administration

but the emperor was set on realizing its formation suggest however, the emperor was set on realizing its formation.
stopping the coastal criminality and disorder, suggest changing the coastal criminality and disorder to piracy, unless it also intends to include smuggling, in which case I would suggest piracy and smuggling.

Personnel and organization

which included 62 treasure ships. It is possible that the fleet had 63 treasure ships Suggest which included 62, or possibly 63, treasure ships.
It is possible that Zheng used these ships for the sixth voyage suggest removing this, as the next sentence covers it better.

Diplomacy and commerce

and items in which China had the monopoly suggest and items which China held a monopoly over

Records and literature

Suggest renaming this section to "Historiography"
The Chenghua Emperor suggest inserting a (r. date-date) after his name.
Southeast Asian sources also provide clues about the Ming treasure voyages suggest changing clues to information
@Cold Season: That is all of my suggestions, once the information regarding the accession of the Xuande emperor is added, I will pass the article as GA. Apologies for taking so long to get around to this, had a pretty brutal week of exams at my university. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Iazyges: I have implemented few of your suggestions, including all the bolded ones. --Cold Season (talk) 02:14, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]