Talk:Mild hybrid

Facts?

The facts on this page should be reviewed. The article incorrectly states that the electric motor does not supplement the gas engine. This is not correct.

The GM-hybrid system very similar in function to the original Honda hybrid systems. The difference was only in the size and power of the electric motors and batteries. The theory of operation is basically the same.

It is not clear if GM belt assist systems as used on the Saturn Vue are meant to be part of this section. It seems that GM has done two different "mild hybrid" systems. The original one used on the Silverado was packaged with the torque converter and appears to provide no motive assist. The belt assist kind used on vehicles such as the Vue does provide some power assist to the motor. As such it is functionally the same as what Honda used on the Insight and first gen Civic hybrid (not sure about gen 2). The only significant difference is the belt system can not provide as much power. I believe the numbers were something like 7hp vs ~20hp.

I think this section should be rewritten such that it is clear that "mild" has been applied to two different systems. The first section describes mild systems as one thing, the second paragraph as another. Springee (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Ford

Ford built a "Tonka" themed pickup truck using a hydraulic pump/motor inserted between the transmission and driveshaft. That was coupled to a pair of pressure accumulator tanks. During braking and for short periods after starting, the pump moved fluid to the pressure tank. When accelerating away from a stop, the fluid went through the pump to provide an assist. Ford never put the system into production. Now the company is working on a series hybrid truck using hydraulic drive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bizzybody (talk • contribs) 08:01, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Oversized starter motors?

It seems that the mild hybrids have "oversized" BATTERIES not starter motors. Starting the engine in a mild hybrid is the same as starting the engine in a non-hybrid. However running the vehicle accessories when the engine is off requires a larger battery. It's common for both the battery voltage and energy storage to be increased. Reference http://lees.mit.edu/consortium.htm Perhaps the article words could change to "upsized battery" since they are appropriately sized for their new application. mbbradford 22:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

This just isnt true. In a BAS Hybrid the starter used for the initial startup is no different than any other car and operates at 12V. However once the initial preconditions for Autostop are met, subsequent auto-starts (when the brakes re released) occur when the 36V battery powers the motor/generator unit. This event takes less than 500 milliseconds.WopOnTour (talk) 07:40, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Another comment: why would the start-stop-system be called mild hybrid? It has nothing to do at all with being hybrid (it's no different than a normal start-stop system in essence), whereas the regenerative braking IS directly related! ... added @ 26 september 2009

Sorry for so long to respond. Automatic Start-Stop is just one potential feature or behavior of hybrid vehicles. Mild hybrids generally have only one or more of the following features: Auto Start/Stop, electric power assist, and regenerative braking. What mild hybrids cannot do is launch the vehicle under 100% battery power (EV mode) because in general this type of hybrid uses parallel architecture and as such their electric motors and HV batteries are too small to do so.

So a hybrid that CAN implement ALL of these features, (including EV operation) would be considered a "Full" or "Strong" hybrid.(usually series-parallel) and anything less, it's a mild hybrid. But some oare more mild than others. For instance the GM Parallel Hybrid Truck (PHT) was a "fleet-only' mild hybrid produced from 2004-2007. The electric motor was actaully pretty large but it only used 36 volts of battery power. Subsequently it could really only do Auto-Stop/Start and minor levels of regenerative braking, but didnt provide ANY power assist or EV launch. The 1st generation of the Honda Eco-Assist (Insight, Civic) is actually very similar to the GM PHT but it has a much larger battery.(and obviously got MUCH better mileage)

In fact,the newest version of the Honda Eco-Asssit is somewhat of a special case, as it is actually able to use the electric motor at times to propel the vehicle but only once it has been brought up to speed, so it doesnt technically operate in "EV mode" (i.e. operate up to a minimum speed on 100% electric powered motor drive) Still (arguably) a mild hybrid, but an enhanced version. So sometimes the term "mild hybrid" can become somewhat blurry, but in my opinion the best reference with respect to this technology is NOT all the various "green-car" and "we are hybrid" websites and blogs, but actually the Society of Automotive Engineers that produce a document (J1715) that outlines a standard and defines a standard methodology for the creation of these definitions. The peeple that MADE these terms (SAE) should be the ones that define them IMO WopOnTour (talk) 21:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Translations

You can add translations to the article name to other languages (although the page is not created in the other language Wikipedia):

• Spanish: híbrido suave.

Merge with Hybrid vehicle drivetrain

I totally agree with this. There are just too many hybrid wikis with varying levels of RS supported techncial accuracy. A mild hybrid is merely a type or variation of hybrid drivetrain so it clearly is a subsection over there. WopOnTour (talk) 05:44, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Non hybrid vehicles featured in this page

It should be noted that the Citroën C3, BMW and Mini (and many others since the paragraph was written) that are put here in the mild-hybrid category have never been advertised as mild-hybrid by their manufacturer, simply because they are not mild-hybrid. They feature a stop-start system, some of them feature so-called regenerative braking, which is in fact only alternator management, but their electric motor can not be used for anything else than starting the engine, what does not qualify them as hybrids. 128.178.17.157 (talk) 11:20, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Not true. These are hybrids, despite their lower levels of electrical contribution. Some people may refer to them as "miro-hybrids" due to their exclusive "Auto-Stop-Start" features, but by most all SAE conventions, they are still hybrid vehicles.WopOnTour (talk) 20:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I see that it is now corrected in the text (not by me). The first real micro-hybrid systems using Start/Stop systems were released only last year by PSA (e-HDi). 128.178.17.157 (talk) 14:04, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Mild Hybrid Buses in the UK?

I think some of the mass transit buses in the UK could be classed as mild hybrid (although the technology seems to be fully diesel electric with no direct coupling of diesel motor to the wheels)

Wrightbus have a few models, including the New Routemaster London bus.

The Wrightbus models in use on some routes in London buses move away from standstill on battery powered electric motor, and typically within 30 seconds the main diesel motor starts to maintain speed and accelerate.

The advantage of this approach is the diesel motor does not have to operate in a low-revs/high torque mode, which is typically when the motor would produce a significant amount of particulate emmission (compared to distance travelled) and also would consume more fuel.

I will be checking the relevant bus articles for inclusion.

http://www.wrightsgroup.com/datasheets/Hybrid_Diesel_Elec.pdf

--193.35.254.234 (talk) 11:07, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

The latest references in the article are 2017—more recent material should be incorporated.

The latest references in the article are 2017—more recent material should be referenced and its contents included in the article. For instance:

“To Power the Future, Carmakers Flip on 48-Volt Systems” By Norman Mayersohn NY Times Feb. 8, 2018 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/08/business/electric-cars-48-volts.html

“Everything You Need To Know About The Upcoming 48-Volt Electrical Revolution In Cars” David Tracy Jalopnik 1/13/17 https://jalopnik.com/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-upcoming-48-volt-1790364465

“48-volt, mild hybrid. A shrewd fix to hybrid power shortfalls. Because who wouldn’t want four-times the voltage and power.” https://www.delphi.com/innovations/48-volt-mild-hybrid

“Why Your Next Car Might Use 48-Volt Technology: Better fuel economy, more power, and improved durability. What’s not to like?” Consumer Reports By Keith Barry April 23, 2018 https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/why-your-next-car-might-use-48-volt-technology/

A google search for "mild hybrids" should turn up more. There has been a lot of action on this topic in recent years.

(Sorry, I've forgotten the tags to use for links, etc.) Harshbuzz (talk) 16:38, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a directory

I would suggest that Mild_hybrid#List_of_makes_and_models falls foul of policy WP:DIRECTORY. Jdee4 (talk) 19:08, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Warranty coverage:ent, it will probably be out of warranty and the owner will have to foot a sizable bill.

While full hybrids have long warranties forced upon them by law, mild hybrids do not . So, for example, in a few years when the 48V battery needs replacem 2601:8C3:857D:C300:34DC:6EE2:D697:1096 (talk) 00:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Mild Hybrid Definition

This page seems to be a bit conflicting in terms of how Mild hybrid systems are defined. As of 2023, most vehicle manufacturers use this term for vehicles equipped with the 48V mild hybrid system. There are exceptions such as Volvos utilizing a 42V system. Mild hybrid systems being identified on this page at the moment seems to vary between first generation true hybrid vehicles and the current 48V systems. 2600:1700:5854:26A0:87F:F8F9:132A:A1E5 (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes. Someone is perpetuating this idiocy. Othmanskn (talk) 07:26, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

FIAT MHEV models are missing from the list

FIAT has developed and released a lot of mhev since 2021, like the 500, the 600, and the Panda.

should they be added to the article as examples of MHEV? SalvaStalker (talk) 13:45, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you because they violate my patent if sold in Malaysia or UK. But I don't think we have Fiat in Malaysia. I suspect someone is paid to remove any mention of true mild-hybrid, to confuse me, the inventor of the Optimum Hybrid that all these mild-hybrids copy or violate. Othmanskn (talk) 07:23, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Lying about mild-hybrid

"is not enough for an electric-only mode of propulsion" is a lie. With 15 kW power, it is sufficient to move the vehicle without firing the fuel at low speed. Firing the fuel together with the motor at low speed is just stupid and there are clues to this fact.

Coasting implies that both engine and motor are off, but it also means that the electric motor can switch on at the lower speeds as indicated by Proton X90 which triggered my warning to Proton about patent violation in 2019 of my patent, An Optimum Hybrid Vehicle, filed in 2013, granted in Malaysia only after complaints to anti-corruption and auditor general, but considered as rejected by UK, because took too long me to respond. Why not, when the examiners keep on repeating the same queries without addressing all my answers that are based on MOPP guidelines.

I threatened to take legal action not realizing that I need to file a claim within 14 days. Fortunately I can still appeal. I suspect criminal conspiracies so will file a police report against UKIPO, Mercedes and Geely in Malaysia first.

I just realized yesterday, 7 September 2024 of all the lies in Wikipedia and advertisement s and YouTube reviews on these mild-hybrid.

EQ Boost give the impression that the motor cannot move the vehicle even at low speed necessitating that fuel be burned like normal even at idling speed. Yesterday, I realised this is stupid given the 15 kW power of the motor. Even starter motors at less than 5 kW can jerk cars, let alone 15 kW. My estimate was at least 10 kW. The only explanation is that they are lying in order to avoid patent infringement charges.

Now, I shall report on false advertising and promises as well. Actually under promises, but can still be harmful because it doesn't allow users to optimise their driving styles to suit varying conditions.

You can see a lot of details on my application here: An optimum hybrid vehicle, GB1412516.5 https://www.ipo.gov.uk/p-ipsum/Case/ApplicationNumber/GB1412516.5

In Malaysia, PI 2013700798, An Optimum hybrid vehicle, granted in 2020. Othmanskn (talk) 03:25, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

"Lies" - Are you here to ask for help or to insult us? You can't have both. Asking for help requires a certain amount of politeness.

I have reverted your changes mostly for conflict of interest and self promotion - see WP:COI and WP:PROMO. If you want something that you are involved in to be on Wikipedia then it is best to point it out here on the talk page and let other editors handle it.

Wikipedia has no association with the UK (or any other) patent office. Any problem you have with them is nothing to do with us.

The UK patent you listed has 50 documents attached. I am certainly not going to wade through all 50 of them.

Now, done to actual details. As you pointed out, technically any car with a starter motor can be considered as a hybrid. It has a range of just a few metres, a top speed of just a few km/h and it kills the battery. No intelligent person would list that as a hybrid vehicle.

The next step up is an electric motor that can power the vehicle but not at full highway speeds. I once ran out of fuel in my Prius. So I used electric-only for 7 km to get to the next petrol station. I consider that abusing my vehicle. It also never got higher than 20 km/h. Not what I call a practical electric-only road experience. However, that electric motor is very good from a standing start at traffic lights, with the petrol engine starting a couple of seconds later.

For fitting a larger starter motor (and presumably a larger battery to power it) to a normal petrol-driven vehicle. Is this motor large enough to propel the vehicle at 60 km/h for local roads? Can it do 100 km/h for highways? The standard 12V battery is only going to last a few seconds, so how big a battery do you need to add and how long will it propel the vehicle? If it cannot maintain highway speeds then it is not a practical electrical vehicle. However, it can be perfectly acceptable as a mild hybrid where the electric motor is used for slow speed (eg: traffic light starts, side roads very close to home, car parks).

Also, is this a factory fitting or an aftermarket fitting?  Stepho  talk  06:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

you don't even understand the meaning of hybrid. hybrid means you use both EV and ice.

That is why we must find ways to operate them to their strengths.

Read about my patent An Optimum Hybrid Vehicle. It is a class of mild-hybrid.

The references were deleted by an idiot. Othmanskn (talk) 07:31, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

after reading both Coi and promo, I wonder if you them yourself.

At least now the guidelines realize the idiocy of not allowing a person to edit his own facts, as what had happened to the founder of Wikipedia himself. Othmanskn (talk) 07:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

After finishing an expert report for my case against Proton and soon Mercedes, I noticed this chapters are so inadequate. There are so many missing entries. Even Mercedes and Geely mild-hybrids are not mentioned at all. Not even Mazda sky-aktif. I thought it used to be there.

Maybe it is due to many self promoting editors biased for GM. Othmanskn (talk) 07:40, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't need help. Just test the whole truth

Why should I need your help?

With what?

Someone here seems to know the truth but chose to tolerate lies. The next stage is a small motor which allows the vehicle to move a short distance. This is what is called mild-hybrid.

BAS etc technically is not a hybrid because it cannot move at all using electric motor because it simply starts.

It is the lies and false advertising that I cannot tolerate. My patent is only valid in Malaysia. Probably in UK if I go to the legal route, but why lie about mild-hybrid.

Lying about it will stunt the whole industry, especially China. We cannot afford to have EV quickly enough. We need to convert all the existing ICE into hybrid to reduce emissions.

To lie that a 15 kW motor cannot move the vehicle by itself, implying that ICE is always burning is just stupid and confusing the consumers and enthusiasts. Words like EQ Boost and Coasting are just lies.

Self promotion? Not when it is true. We write what we know. Our culture and our knowledge. To call that self promotion is preposterous.

To write only about others is what led to lies and ignorances. Wikipedia is meant to spread the truth, not lies and untruths. I am preparing myself for the edit war and will resort to complaints against people who spread lies. Othmanskn (talk) 07:18, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Lies and lack of data here is caused by COI and PROMO

Mild-hybrid is a promising technology. It will help increase the efficiency of all ICE, old or new. You think I am biased because I am the inventor of Optimum Hybrid, which is just to use a bigger BAS/BSG/ISG. However only valid in Malaysia so why should I care about the rest of the world?

I used this Wikipedia page during my patent search but later on found so many missing information, like the mild-hybrids from China, probably used by Mercedes, Volvo and Proton, all Chinese owned also. What is most disturbing is the outright lies that motors cannot move the vehicle at all. I found out yesterday, 7 Sep 2024. I copied the page to be used as evidence.

What caused all these? Basically Conflict of Interest and Self-promo of the editors. Ironically, they blame other authors for COI and PROMO so delete all articles written by Geely etc immediately, just like my article mentioning about the Optimum Hybrid that Mercedes and Proton copied, by having just one large starter generator.

I just can't believe it. This why it led to articles on US based car companies only. This is certainly COI and PROMO but these editors don't admit it, but results speak louder than excuses.

Nothing wrong writing about one self as long it is neutral and the truth, although I prefer more emphasis on special strengths that outsiders may miss, which sounds like self-promotion, frowned upon by encyclopedic Wikipedia.

Asking someone else to write about others is bad, which I won't do as well. It is like insisting that only people outside Japan can write about Japan. Despite having visited Japan more than 10 times, I still dare not write anything about Japan, because most probably I am wrong. I prefer native Japanese to write about themselves, not outsiders, not even outside journalists. Othmanskn (talk) 08:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah, so you've chosen the "everybody who does not agree with me is an idiot or arsehole" route. Act like an arsehole and you will be banned from Wikipedia. Or you can be polite, explain your stuff (as though talking to a 5-year old if you think we are idiots) and we can make improvements to the article.

FYI, I have industry experience myself. I helped develop ECUs for Tata CNG trucks and Volvo dual fuel cars (auto switching between petrol and CNG). I am not an expert in hybrid technology but I can understand parts of it.

WP:COI is not to stop Japanese writing about Japan. It is intended (among other examples) to stop people writing about themselves, their own company or their own inventions, mentioning only the good points and not mentioning the bad points. We prefer to quote industry experts that are not directly involved with that invention. If you can present some industry experts writing about your device in magazines (either industry magazines or enthusiast magazines), peer-review journals, or similar then it would make things much easier. Since you are in the industry, you should be able to point out some of these that mention your device.

If you know of any article written by Geely then please point it out. I don't know of any but I don't follow every page.

Nobody is claiming that WP articles are perfect. We are human, we make mistakes. Politely point them out with explanations and will work to make it more correct.

You have asked us to read your patent. It has 50 documents to download and read. I'm not doing that. I will download and read a few documents. Can you point out which one or two of the 50 documents in your patent contain the summary of your invention?

I noticed that you made a small change after the reversion. I agree with your change.  Stepho  talk  11:23, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Someone is paid to remove all mentions of true mild-hybrids

I am in the process of taking legal action in Malaysia as well as UK. Our laws are similar so should be easier.

The statute of limitations in the Borneo states of Sabah is only 3 years to challenge legal instruments created by law so patents are covered.

I already gave warnings to Proton in 2019 but no reply. Doesn't matter because in Malaysia, if you don't respond, you are considered guilty. Actually it is common law and there are should be many precedence cases but in Malaysia it is written down in the Evidence Act.

Mercedes and Volvo, no earnings but because they are also owned by Geely, no excuse for them to know. Furthermore, a patent means widely known. For car companies not to know about granted patents, should be a lie.

Volkswagen and Land Rover, I just discovered using mild-hybrid called MHEV.

All these certainly violate my patent, Optimum Hybrid.

I just want to warn unscrupulous people from doing illegal things because it can become costly. Wikipedia has a tracking facility. Not only I can sue for damages, the police and other agencies can go after you.

It is indeed surprising that these common mild-hybrids are missing. What are left in Wikipedia are just useless and impractical designs. Othmanskn (talk) 07:20, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

The most honest description of mild-hybrid

"Mild Hybrid POWER, improving efficiency Mild hybrid use a petrol engine to power the wheels with a lithium battery providing support. Stop-start technology increases efficiency by shutting the engine off when the car is coasting, or when lifting the foot off the pedal at speeds under 11 mph on automatic transmission, reducing tailpipe emissions and running costs."

From Nissan. https://www.nissan.co.uk/range/mild-hybrid-cars.html

At speeds below about 15 km/h you switch off the ICE. Unfortunately it doesn't state if it uses the motor, but common sense tells you that it should.

The reason why it doesn't want to state this is the fear of violating the Optimum Hybrid patent, my patent.

Also doesn't want to use the word optimum, for fear of cannibalising the other hybrids. You see, ICE operates more efficiently at speeds higher than 15 km/h. Actually it is the rpm.

While EV, is most economical if the battery is small. Large batteries mean more expensive and heavy. Too small, like starter motor, not good and too weak to crank the ICE to the 15 km/h speed.

So a bigger motor, is optimum for the hybrid. Hybrid means both electric and ICE. As it turned out, it is just by getting bigger motor and bigger battery.

Bigger battery means it can store more, sufficient to store the kinetic energy of the vehicle during regen, but not much more. Too much not good because it will be more costly and heavy. Sufficiently large for maximum KERS, the reason for the economy of EV and Hybrid, but at a much lower cost in price and weight.

There is still very poor understanding of the mild hybrid as the optimum combination of EV and ICE. The world needs to wake up instead of keeping on telling lies.

Another advantage is that this mild hybrid can be used for all ICE vehicles of all types and transmissions. lorries, buses, automatic transmission or manual. Overnight, we can increase the power while making it 30% efficient of all ICE. Othmanskn (talk) 10:04, 10 September 2024 (UTC)