Talk:Midwinter

Disambiguation?

Does this really need to be a disambiguation page? I see it's flipped back and forth between a redirect to winter solstice and a dab page, and I would agree with the redirect, and a hatnote for the festival, if indeed it's necessary as the page has a list of midwinter festivals which includes, and links to, Yule. From what I can see nearly all of the many links to this page are intended for winter solstice, and I would say that that is definitely the primary topic. CarrieVS (talk) 12:32, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I just finished fixing all of the remaining links that re-directed here, but should have gone to the winter solstice. I have no opinion on whether or not this page here should remain a disambiguation page or not. Guy1890 (talk) 03:19, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

There already was a disambiguation page at Midwinter (disambiguation). This should be a redirect. HelenOnline (talk) 09:52, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Equating midwinter with the winter solstice in Old English

Asarlaí: Here is the passage from Kazutomo Karasawa's The Old English Metrical Calendar which is used to support that midwinter referred to the winter solstice in Old English:

"Thus many teachers of computus used to associate the four key days of the solar year with the four important feasts of Christ and John the Baptist, thereby accentuating the inevitable importance and meaningfulness of those four days as turning points of the year. The tradition seems to have been especially strong as regards the solstices, since Christmas and the Nativity of St John the Baptist continued to be called, until the end of the Anglo-Saxon period, middes wintres mæssedæg or midwinter, and middes sumeres mæssedæg or middesumores mæsse, respectively, while at the same time, midwinter and midsumor mean the winter and the summer solstices." (p. 37)

The info is repeated later in the book:

"The Nativity of Christ on 25 December. The feast coincided with the winter solstice, the mid-point of winter, under the original Julian calendar and Christmas was often called midwinter, middewinter, middanwinter, middewintres mæssedæg, middes wintres mæssedæg, etc. until the end of the Old english period." (p. 86)

Karasawa writes about how 25 December was the liturgical winter solstice, but the reason the word midwinter was applied to Christmas doesn't need to have anything to do with that. Maybe I'm misreading something, but in the first quotation it looks like he assumes that midwinter refers to the winter solstice and uses that as further evidence for the connection between Christmas and the winter solstice. That would make the source useless here, where it's the opposite relation that needs to be supported. The second version is even more elusive and only says that the holiday with several names coincides with the winter solstice of the Julian calendar.

Are there any Old English texts that specifically refer to the winter solstice as midwinter? The ones quoted in Karasawa's book do not; they refer to Christmas.

The other source, Eleanor Parker's Winters in the World, does state it outright on p. 16: "...the solstices, often called 'Midwinter' and 'Midsummer'..." But when I look at the scholarly source she cites, Earl R. Anderson's Folk Taxonomies in Early English, I'm unable to find it. The Old English midwinter only refers to Christmas there too. Ffranc (talk) 14:19, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

In Old English, midwinter could mean both "the winter solstice" and "Christmas". Although the winter solstice falls on 21 December, in Anglo-Saxon England the winter solstice was generally deemed to be 25 December, as it had been in the Roman calendar. So to the Anglo-Saxons the winter solstice, Christmas and midwinter were the same day. That's sourced to Kazutomo Karasawa's The Old English Metrical Calendar (p.36 and 37) which you quoted above. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 15:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Karasawa does not say outright that it referred to the winter solstice in Old English, only that it coincided with the liturgical solstice. Parker does say it in her popular book, but her own academic source does not, from what I was able to find. The way you worded it in the article, any normal reader will interpret midwinter as an Old English name for the astronomical solstice, which is unsupported and wrong.

Beyond that, the part about the origin of the date of Christmas Day is irrelevant here, and using it to make you own point is WP:SYNTH. The way it is written creates additional confusion, since the Old English reference to Christmas as midwinter was not adopted from pre-Christian Rome, but from the medieval church calendar. The Online Etymology Dictionary is a passion project, not a reliable source, and its statement is a mess. It doesn't say that midwinter referred to the solstice in Old English, only that the word existed back then. What it calls "traditional" is the Enlightenment-era (mis)interpretation of the word, whereas the definition of winter is from the Anglo-Saxon period. A clear, properly sourced Wikipedia article can be a good antidote to this type of jumbled texts. It would be a shame if we instead reproduced more of it. Ffranc (talk) 16:00, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

"Karasawa does not say outright that it referred to the winter solstice" - he says "midwinter and midsumor mean the winter and the summer solstices", and later "The feast coincided with the winter solstice, the mid-point of winter, under the original Julian calendar and Christmas was often called midwinter". You posted both of those quotes above. But I take your point about readers confusing the astronomical solstice with what you call the liturgical solstice, so I've re-worded that bit to make it clearer. Thanks for pointing it out.

I had assumed the Online Etymology Dictionary was fairly reliable as it's used on a lot of articles, but if you feel it isn't, I'd suggest raising it at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. The sources I added are only ones that I found with a quick search. I'm sure more could be found, which I'll add when I have a bit more time.– Asarlaí ^(talk) 16:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

You very much make it sound like midwinter was a name for the winter solstice in Old English, which it was not, neither the astronomical nor the liturgical (which is not my term). The way Karasawa writes about this is slightly confusing, but he does not give the causality you introduce in the article. There is no "thus" in his description, only a "coincides". You also make it sound like the Anglo-Saxons adopted 25 December as an important day from ancient Rome, when it was from medieval Christianity. I ask again, do you know about any Old English text that actually refers to the winter solstice as such as midwinter? Karasawa's book includes several texts that use the word, but they refer to Christmas as a holiday, not to the solstice in any of its definitions. Also, why did you remove the info about midwinter referring to the entire Christmas season in Old English? That was a good addition from one of the sources you introduced (Parker 2022, p. 70), and establishes a relevant distinction between midwinter in general and "midwinter's mass-day". Ffranc (talk) 13:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

This is my wording:

Although the winter solstice falls on 21 December, in Anglo-Saxon England the winter solstice was generally deemed to be 25 December. In Old English, midwinter could thus mean both the winter solstice and Christmas, which was also called middes wintres mæssedæg.

You say that I "very much make it sound like midwinter was a name for the winter solstice in Old English, which it was not, neither the astronomical nor the liturgical".

But here's what the sources say:

• "Although the winter solstice officially fell on 21 rather than 25 December ... the unofficial date, together with the also unofficial dates of the summer solstice (24 June) and the autumnal equinox (24 September), persisted in Anglo-Saxon England. ... Thus the unofficial dates, while sometimes coexisting with the official ones, are often adopted in Anglo-Saxon calendars". (Karasawa, p.36)
• "The tradition seems to have been especially strong as regards the solstices, since Christmas and the Nativity of St John the Baptist continued to be called, until the end of the Anglo-Saxon period, middes wintres mæssedæg or midwinter, and middes sumeres mæssedæg or middesumores mæsse, respectively, while at the same time, midwinter and midsumor mean the winter and the summer solstices". (Karasawa, p. 37)
• "Many Anglo-Saxon writers still seem to think in terms of a two-season year, with the solstices, often called 'Midwinter' and 'Midsummer', falling halfway through each season". (Parker, p.16)
• Bede: "the Lord was conceived and suffered on 25 March at the vernal equinox, and was born on 25 December at the winter solstice".

So the wording accurately reflects the sources.

I ask again, do you know about any Old English text that actually refers to the winter solstice as such as midwinter?

Reliable sources say that midwinter was an Old English name for both the winter solstice and Christmas, which the Anglo-Saxons regarded as falling on the same day. That's enough for Wikipedia. We don't need to go hunting for quotes in medieval manuscripts to prove it. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 13:37, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't mind the current version of the article. The problem was when it looked as if midwinter was a celebration of the winter solstice in the Anglo-Saxon period, when it obviously was a celebration of the birthday of Jesus, as established at the First Council of Nicaea. Karasawa goes through this on page 36. This is what makes it "liturgical", which is the word the sources use when they distinguish 25 December from the astronomical/natural solstice. It's an easy way to avoid the misconception that the Anglo-Saxon midwinter was a celebration of the winter solstice, when it was a Christian celebration and part of a liturgical calendar. Ffranc (talk) 13:36, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Solstice and infobox

Trackratte: Among other aspects and histories, the article covers how the equation between midwinter and the winter solstice originated with a modern misunderstanding. It's neither the original meaning nor the main one today. It is a late, alternative addition to a longer and more complex history. The article body describes this, backed by good sources, and the lead section should be a summary of the body. That you can find examples of people using the word in the Enlightenment-inspired way - where astronomy is shoehorned in as a rational explanation behind living, contradictory culture - is not a reason to portray it as the original, main or only meaning of the word.

Infoboxes are often a bad idea in articles that aren't about technical subjects. Since the term midwinter has several meanings and a complex history, it's misleading to pick one meaning and create an infobox around it. Prose is more capable of providing the necessary nuances and distinctions. If we create an infobox stripped of everything that will mislead readers, we will be left with pretty much nothing, which means an infobox in this article, at best, would be a useless compulsion. Ffranc (talk) 13:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Then engage in a discussion on the actual content, or on the sources. Wholesale reverts of entire swathes of text, an entire infobox, and citations are inappropriate conduct. Your argument against something as basic as an infobox appear to be WP:POV as the framework for Midwinter is exactly the same as Midsummer which clearly has an infobox without trouble or dispute. Additionally, the lede you continue to wholesale revert reads extremely similar to the Midsummer article, as again, the framework, history, and logic are essentially the same. Further, given you have the most edits on this particular article, what I am seeing seems to be much more simply WP:OWN than editorial debate. Again, wholesale reverts of cited information and infobox templates that do have long-standing consensus at Midsummer where the exact same logic and framework applies to this article is counter to productive norms. trackratte (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

The framework for midwinter is the info we can find about it in reliable sources. The equation with the winter solstice is one such thing, and it is covered in the article, along with various other things. I have not removed this info, only reverted your attempts to attribute a primacy to it that lacks support in the sources. Midsummer and midwinter are different topics with their own distinct histories and practices. They are not some kind of perfect twin subjects, where the words "summer" and "winter" are the only differences between them. For example, midsummer has long been celebrated by Christians as the birthday of John the Baptist, whereas the associations between midwinter and celebrations are more vague, specifically medieval, or non-existing. Even when there are analogies, you can't just assume that one article does it the right way and the other the wrong way. If there is a good argument for not having an infobox, pointing to another infobox that may have the same problems is not a good counter-argument. Ffranc (talk) 14:59, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Your argument for not having an infobox is not wanting an infobox. Something lacking sources is only true in so far as you've removed five of them. trackratte (talk) 15:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

My argument against the infobox in general is that it always will misrepresent the topic, because it cannot provide the necessary nuance and variation. My argument against the version you posted in particular is that it is based on a misconception and goes against what the article body and sources say. I have written this above and you have not provided any counter-argument to it. Please do not revert any more, like you did now, and use the talk page if you have something to add. Ffranc (talk) 12:07, 3 April 2024 (UTC)