Talk:Midwest University

Christian institution

Everything I can find about this school online, including its own website, claims this is a Christian University:

“Midwest University exists to provide men and women with a biblically-based higher education designed to prepare them for success in their careers in ministry and secular service by enhancing their spiritual, social, and intellectual gifts and abilities.”

It is also only be accredited by Christian accrediting agencies. An employee of the school has apparently been directed[1][2] to remove this information and make other changes on this page, presumably for marketing purposes. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I added a statement quoting the "biblically-based higher education" text above. I'm not sure I care whether "Christian" appears in the article, but I am happy to include "biblically-based" since it's straight from their mission statement. (I've been trying to find secondary sources and I'm coming up short.)  Eyer ^contact  21:55, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

That seems fine to me. I was advocating for "Evangelical Christian" because until this morning their own description was "Evangelical Christian." Their website suddenly changed after I pointed it out to User:Tbum777, although a google search still returns the original wording. This all seems very strange to me the way they're insisting to change information on Wikipedia before updating their own website. Grey Wanderer (talk) 22:42, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I find all of the back and forth a bit confusing. If anything, this discussion has raised my awareness of the university. I have this article on my watchlist, though... I am happy to support additional edits to the article.  Eyer ^contact  22:47, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'll hold off on anymore reverts, besides my last. I'd also like to find a source supporting that the student body is nearly entirely South Korean immigrants, that is interesting and unusual. You're right that third-party sources seem almost entirely lacking. Grey Wanderer (talk) 22:52, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Edits and reversions

I've reached out to both of the (other) editors active in editing this page recently, but I've only been able to engage with Grey Wanderer.

@Tbum777:: As I mentioned on your talk page, I am happy to facilitate edits to Midwest University in light of your conflict of interest (see 1 and 2). I'm interested in improving this article, and I believe I've done so by adding more relevant information and more citations (including permanent citations through archive.org). You have removed my (and Grey Wanderer's) edits on multiple occasions without giving any reason other than that you are correcting information.

What information needs correcting? What are the sources that support the correction (or removal) of information? You say that you are employed by the university and are being directed by its president to make these changes. Are you complying with Wikipedia policy when doing so? Can I (as an independent editor) help you comply?

Please let's discuss this here or on either of our talk pages. Thank you.  Eyer ^contact  04:06, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Edits and reversions (discussion from User talk:Tbum777)

Moved conversation about this page from User talk:Tbum777. Please follow the conversation here. (If I moved too much, feel free to revert and re-move.)  Eyer ^contact  17:37, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Why are you continuing to edit Midwest’s a university page? Who are you? This site is obviously worthless if people like you keeps adding content that is incorrect or out of date or completely irrelevant. Stop spamming the page with your edits. I am not being directed by anyone to change the information. If I feel that someone is adding or removing information that is either out of date or irrelevant than I feel I can change it.

Hi. I'm Eyer. I edit articles on current events, Florida, government and government officials, and schools. I am happy to help edit Midwest University, given your conflict of interest. What changes do you propose?  Eyer ^contact  04:59, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Your assumption that you made earlier” I'd also like to find a source supporting that the student body is nearly entirely South Korean immigrants” is incorrect. Also, adding more information is not always a positive thing. There is not a conflict of interest as I am not getting paid to make any edits and I have no gain whatsoever by correcting the information.

Hey that was me that made that assumption. I could be wrong, but looking at the website pictures and the fact that there’s even a version of the website in Korean, it really looked like it. Forgive me for assuming that’s the case. You keep saying there is incorrect information, but you won’t say what when we ask you. Can you please answer directly if Midwest is a Christian institution? Wikipedia is not here to be a positive thing for your school. It’s here to be an encyclopedia and tell the truth. You yourself claimed you work for Midwest and were instructed by the President to make changes, I assume as an employee you get paid? Grey Wanderer (talk) 05:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I never made any statements about the student body being made up of immigrants. You might have me confused with someone else. You stated that you were being directed to make edits by the university president and that you are an employee of the university. From my reading of Wikipedia's policy on conflicts of interest, it applies here. Again, I am happy to help edit Midwest University. Is there specific contact you'd like added or removed? What changes do you propose?  Eyer ^contact  05:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Too many users make edits with assumptions which makes this site not the truth. Please be careful who you call immigrants.

Again, I am happy to help edit Midwest University. Is there specific contact you'd like added or removed? What changes do you propose?  Eyer ^contact  05:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

“Your changes have been undone multiple times by several different editors. We don’t generally don’t use honorifics like “Dr.” on Wikipedia (see WP:Credentials; If that offends James Song, may I suggest his vanity should be brought more in line with Christian morals” Hey Grey- keep your assumptions and suggestions to yourself. You’ve proven yourself to be offensive and I do not wish to communicate with you any further.

I'd like for this to be a positive and productive discussion, so I'll say again: I am happy to help edit Midwest University. Is there specific content you'd like added or removed? What changes do you propose? If there isn't anything, then I'll assume that the page is more-or-less okay as-is.  Eyer ^contact  05:46, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I’ll admit being offensive for the sake of humor is certainly a guilty pleasure of mine. Most Koreans I know in Missouri are either first or second generation immigrants, it’s not a pejorative after all? What’s untrue? Can you be more specific? Grey Wanderer (talk) 05:48, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I’m glad you’re having a good time being offensive for the sake of humor. Koreans you know in Missouri? Please stop.

The correct webpage for the Midwest’s University overview (reference 1 & 7)is http://www.midwest.edu/eng/01about/01overview.asp

Thank you. That's the webpage I have for those references, except that I used the incorrect format for www.archive.org when I was preemptively archiving the URLs. I fixed the one to be as it should. I'll come back to correct the others later today.  Eyer ^contact  11:57, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I fixed them all, after all. What other changes do you propose?  Eyer ^contact  12:19, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Appreciate it. Why did you put “Midwest University and Theological Seminary”? How is this information relevant? This can be found by looking at the website.

I think a different editor added that information (I just moved it around bit). I don't see a compelling reason to remove it, as it seems that it's important to the history of the university. I looked at a couple of other universities that have changed their name (University of Central Florida and Florida State University) and I see that both of hem have their former names listed. UCF's is in the lede, right before the mission... just about how it's currently arranged in this article. Do you have a reason to remove this text that I'm missing? (If it's just that it's too prominent for your taste, then maybe that can be fixed by adding more detail to the rest of the article. I'd love to see a history section, an academics section, a notable people section, etc...).  Eyer ^contact  14:30, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

It doesn’t necessarily need to be removed- don’t see a need for it to be bold font. I don’t see other universities stating their old name. Midwest University is not a theological school and that should be removed from the first line.

I am told that Wikipedia's manual of style indicates that the former name should be boldface, but I'm not the editor that bolded it and I can't quickly find it in the style guide now. Midwest University is a theological school, at least according to the Missouri Department of Higher Education. Do you have a different source that says it isn't?  Eyer ^contact  14:51, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The academic section information is incorrect. There are 10 graduate degrees and within those degrees are concentrations. There are only 4 undergraduate programs. Traditional and adult completions are the same degree.

It was correct as twenty programs of study. (A concentration is a program of study within a degree program.) I have changed the text to emphasize the degree programs, rather than the programs of study, at your request. As an aside, please remember to sign your comments on talk pages.  Eyer ^contact  16:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes I am familiar with what a concentration is. The accreditors do not consider concentrations as separate degree programs therefore should not be listed as such.--09:12, 16 July 2019‎ Tbum777

Two personal notes: (1) I appreciate the collaboration. If there are any other corrections you'd like considered, please let me know. (2) I have to spend some time today writing a paper for my university, so if you have anything for quick for me, I'll tackle it now. Otherwise, it'll be a bit before I get back to this page. Again, remember to sign your posts. (It's also a good practice to use colons to indent your replies.)  Eyer ^contact  16:16, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Tbum777: @Eyer: Could I ask you both to please move the portions of this discussion related to the content to Talk:Midwest University? It makes more sense for a content discussion to reside with the article instead of on a user talk page. Also it makes it easier for other editors to contribute. If you prefer, I can do it for you. Thanks. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 17:26, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Tbum777 is currently blocked. Can s/he edit at Talk:Midwest University? I agree that this conversation should happen there (please move it for me---I don't want to mess anything up in the move), but I don't want to exclude Tbum777's participation while s/he is blocked. What are your thoughts?  Eyer ^contact  17:29, 16 July 2019 (UTCY

Thanks Eyer- appreciate the help. Sorry I am not able to do anything on the other talk page mentioned.--10:52, 16 July 2019‎ Tbum777‎

I'll hold off until the block expires, then I'll move the content to the article talk page. In the meantime, you can continue the discussion here. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 20:25, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Although courses are offered in Korean, as the website states, courses are available in English. You typed in that all classes are instructed in Korean, which is incorrect. This is misleading or not mention it at all as it is irrelevant. There are American students and they take their courses in English. And to be more clear, all courses are “offered” in Korean but does not mean limited to; many courses are taught in English and other languages. This needs to be corrected.

Tbum777: put two colons in front of "Although courses" above to indent. Also, put four tildes (~) after the word "correct" to get your signature in the right spot.  Eyer ^contact  20:46, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Tbum, do you have a recommendation on how to include the Korean flavor of the school? Should it be described as a Korean Christian private University, Primarily Korean, Korean-American, some combination of these, or discussed separately? Your input would be appreciated as there is precious little written about the school by third-parties. Eyer is not responsible for adding that bit earlier, you can check the history page to see who made what changes. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:10, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Midwest University is an American School, founded and operating in the United stares. There are students from all over the world, and not limited to Korean or American students. Just because an institution offers courses in Korean and have Korean students does not make it a “Korean” school. And as stated before, courses are not limited to the English and Korean language. Also, ATS uses the language “not an accredited member” not unaccredited———

I just need a source about the languages courses in which courses are offered.  Eyer ^contact  22:16, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

there is not a source. Courses can be made available in multiple languages. Why does it need to be mentioned at all?——

I was not the editor who added that statement, so I won't remove it by myself. I think we can discuss it further and come to a consensus. From my personal perspective: It seems like you want to minimize mentions of Korea on the page. I am genuinely curious why. I would think that having a significant enough Korean student population that you offer all classes in the Korean language would be a point of pride: one the set Midwest apart in a positive way. (One of the reasons I chose my current university is the number of graduate students from Africa and East Asia. Learning with a diverse community is a good thing. Let's put something about Midwest's distinctiveness there in that first paragraph.)

(By the way — it's one colon per "indent level" and its four tildes [~], not dashes.)  Eyer ^contact  22:23, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Not trying to minimize mention of Korea at all. Just don’t see why it’s a focus of of editorsTbum777 (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

All right, I'll bite. To be totally frank with you Tbum, Midwest appears to be one step away from a diploma mill, in fact here is a Korean source that describes it so. Institutions such as yours present themselves to Koreans overseas as American Universities (perhaps that's why it's called Midwest?) and make a quick buck while rewarding the victims with nearly worthless degrees. I find this practice abhorrent morally, particularly when it comes dressed up with a religious front (that's why I was so sassy about James Song from the get go). I don't generally add this kind of criticism to articles, preferring to give them the benefit of the doubt, unless I catch the schools actively trying to misrepresent themselves on Wikipedia. I felt that you did this when you kept adding ATS associate membership then a blurb about them being a nationally recognized accrediting agency, despite being unaccredited by them! I also feel that you want to minimize the Korean student body, because you wish to represent the school as a mainstream American University to potential students overseas. If any of this is way off base, and you are a legitimate institution I apologize, but given my experience that seems unlikely. I am willing to be persuaded if you find reliable third-party sources that demonstrate otherwise. I will likely add the Korea joongAng daily article to the page unless you persuade me otherwise. Grey Wanderer (talk) 22:58, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Here is a proper citation for the source you found: [removed so it no longer appears at the bottom of the talk page]  Eyer ^contact  23:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

First of all, you are wrong to say that Midwest University is a degree mill. It was named Midwest because it was founded in the United States in the Midwest! The institution is accredited by a nationally recognized organization and in the process of gaining reaffirmation from ABHE. There are multiple steps to gaining accreditation with ATS. I never added that the institution was accredited by ATS. They are a member school with associate status which is clearly on the website. I added that ATS and ABHE are recognized by CHEA and the USDE which is trueTbum777 (talk) 23:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I didn't say it the national newspaper of Korea did. I think that by emphasizing ATS as an accrediting agency on the Midwest page you wished to carefully mislead folks into thinking they accredited Midwest. ABHE is known to accredit many schools people would call diploma mills as it has almost no standard for who it accredits. This is true of many national accrediting agencies (as opposed to regional which are much more rigorous), but unfortunately the for-profit education industry in America has stifled any reform of the accrediting process thus far. ABHE is one of the worst of the worst in my opinion so I always look carefully when dealing with institutions only accredited by them. Grey Wanderer (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

MDHE was contacted as Midwest University is still listed as a Theological School under their institution list. I have been contacted that the school search has been updated as a independent 4 year school and the other listing page will be updated within the next couple of days. Here is the link to the school search. https://web.dhe.mo.gov/dhe/collegedegreesearch/collegesearch.faces Tbum777 (talk) 23:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Nowhere in the article is Midwest described as a theological institution. It is however described as Christian. Here is a quote from your website:

As a distinctly Christian institution of higher education, Midwest University strongly adheres to the principles of... ...promotion of a true Christian lifestyle

no one is emphasizing ATS to mislead anyone. The school is required to add the exact wording we ATS regulations. “Midwest University is an Associate Member of The Association of Theological Schools in the United States and Canada (ATS), but not an Accredited Member nor a Candidate for Accreditation with the ATS Commission on Accrediting”. It seems that your opinions are not only narrow minded, but very close to be racial issueTbum777 (talk) 23:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

That's not the wording you added to Wikipedia when regulations didn't apply, you left the important part out. You are still claiming you don't have a conflict of interest, despite admitting being an employee of the school and directed by James Song to make these changes. I don't know what on Earth makes you think it's a racial issue, except that you've run our of logical arguments so all that's left is to cry racism. Since I feel the need to defend myself here is a article I created months ago about a South Korean Immigrant to America, who is not seeking to defraud his home country. Grey Wanderer (talk) 23:55, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The part about accreditation was already on the page. It is required in that language on the website and catalog be as I stated above. This site is hardly worthy so I doubt it matters if the EXACT wording was used. The website was reference which shows exactly how it’s suppose to be so not sure what your issue is. I added the information about CHEA as I stated multiple times. Your accusations and defamation needs to stop. I do not know what your issue is but it’s clear this is not the first page you’ve caused issues with because you think you know more than you do. Your assumptions and suggestions have been offensive and need to be taken elsewhere. You’ve already admitted you enjoy to be offensive, whatever you want to call the childish game so I do not see your edits or comments as being productive or worthwhile. Tbum777 (talk) 00:20, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Hey if you can't take the heat get out of the oven. You have to admit the article is much more informative now, in both positive and negative ways for Midwest. From this to this, thanks to all three of our efforts. That's the genius of Wikipedia; conflict creating a better encyclopedia! Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:46, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

You have posted a unverified newspaper article from 2007 in attempts to slander the university. There aren’t any resources sited or proof that the school they are talking about is the same university. I’m sure as you know from reading the website, Midwest University gained accreditation in 2000. Withdrawal from the previous accreditation is not related whatsoever to the newspaper article you are referencing as you are trying to make it seemTbum777 (talk) 00:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The newspaper article appears to be a reliable source. I searched (I really did)!, but didn't find a retraction from the newspaper. Not trying to slander anyone or anything here... It simply is what it is. There is no guarantee that any given Wikipedia will be perceived as positive by its subject—that's why the conflict of interest policy is in place. Instead, Wikipedia focuses on making sure the information is verifiable.  Eyer ^contact  00:44, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

adding information that is misleading, false and not verifiable does not make this site better. It’s evident by the talk pages that you are maliciously trying to add negative information without verifying that the article is the same university. You say you will hate to be wrong which implies you aren’t even for sure about what you’re editing. It’s obvious you’re trying to slander the university by correlating it with being a degree mill. Can’t take the heat get out of the oven? I had no idea this site was like this. You should be reportedTbum777 (talk) 01:14, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

It should be mentioned that Midwest University gained accreditation with TRACS in 2000 if you’re going to mention the withdrawal unless you’ve still correlated the the degree mill article· which again is incorrect. Midwest University has not been cited, charged, accused of being a degree mill. Now that this article has gone to my attention, I will be contacting the newspaper to get evidence and resources used to print the article. This is not the same universityTbum777 (talk) 01:30, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

By placing your comment under mine, you appear to be stating that I am trying to slander the university. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I'd like to remind you to assume good faith in your dealings with all editors. We are all here to build an encyclopedia using independent, reliable sources like newspaper reporting. Having a Wikipedia article about an organization you're passionate about means that content that you perceive as negative might be published. From Wikipedia's law of unintended consequences: "If there is anything publicly available on a topic that you would not want to have included in an article, it will probably find its way there eventually."

Please continue to discuss edits to Midwest University on its talk page (or here, until your ban is lifted). Please be sure that you properly disclose your conflict of interest and propose changes on talk pages, rather than editing articles directly.

Have a great night.  Eyer ^contact  01:35, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I believe it is slander to comment about the university in the talk pages and it’s evident that conversations among editors have led to tag team editing to negatively impact the university without facts. I was threatened by an editor that it would be posted if I did not change his mind or give him reason to do otherwise. This type of bullying over editing needs to stop. Midwest University is a non-profit 501c3 institution. Does not fit in with any degree mill characteristics yet due to racial views of editors labeling the institution Korean, it has become evident that it is the goal of the editor to slander the university. Furthermore, suggesting Midwest University is the same university as the one mentioned in the non resourced article being used as a reference. It is one thing if the negative was verifiably found to be true. It’s another when unverified information is used to suggest negativity due to bias opinions and not factsTbum777 (talk) 01:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The following information that was added is incorrect. “Founded in 1986 by James Song as the Midwest University and Theological Seminary“. It was founded as “Midwest College and Theological Seminary”. The following information was added by editors “In August 2007, Korea JoongAng Daily described Midwest University as a "diploma mill" and questioned the value of a Midwest degree, stating that it had issued 39 "fake degrees" since January 2003”. In 2003, Midwest University has not yet changed their name and was known Midwest College and Theological SeminaryTbum777 (talk) 02:23, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I corrected “Midwest College and Theological Seminary”. The name change happened in 2004, before the 2007 newspaper article was published.  Eyer ^contact  02:28, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

you would think a “reliable” source would state the old name which the degrees would have been given in 2003 for the awareness of readers when it was published.Tbum777 (talk) 02:46, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

the link to the St. Louis post dispatch opens a different page? That article is from 2000- seems like it would be outdated information considering it’s almost 20 years old. You removed other information claiming it was outdated (20 years old) year yet add the old article? In 2000 the school had not changed heir name so it was a seminary. It is not anymore. Tbum777 (talk) 14:32, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Just curious why you added “According to the school, its undergraduate degree programs were accredited by TRACS during this time. Beginning in 2004, its graduate programs were also accredited by TRACS.” after the degree mill article. Isn’t that self explanatory when you’ve already listed the years Midwest was accredited with TRACS? Unless you are again suggesting the two are related. Are the links to the 20 year old newspaper articles going to be fixed so they show up or do readers have to have a special account to access it? I understand you’re trying to add history or the “Korean” flavor. That’s fine but could you please use up to date resources. As most schools do, Midwest University has changed, progressed and improved over 20 years.

It’s obvious what you and the other editors are trying to do considering I haven’t edited since I’ve been blocked. The information I tried to change (which has all been reverted) were all minor changes, also had references to what was added and were the true statementsTbum777 (talk) 15:34, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

The article about the diploma mill defines diploma mills as being unaccredited. Midwest states that it ‘’was’’ accredited during that time, so it’s relevant to the discussion. (Further. You state the school wasn’t a diploma mill, so that’s a way of adding some kind of rebuttal to the claim even though there are really no sources to use. I’d love to use up-to-date resources, but there simply aren’t any. If you really do work for the school, maybe put out a press release or two to get picked up by the local paper. Once it’s in the paper, it’s considered a reliable source and could be put in the article

As far as the university changing over the years, that’s great. I feel that this article shows that growth... From a college and seminary with a Korean focus to a multidisciplinary university that offers face-to-face classes with an expanded local presence. Even though you can’t edit the article directly, find me more sources that paint the university’s picture and I’ll be happy to add more information in the future.  Eyer ^contact  15:46, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

misleading to say that the school was unaccredited from 2010-2015 as the accreditation process is not instantaneous. On February 12, 2013, Midwest University was approved for Candidate status by ABHE. The accrediting agency ABHE is recognized for their preaccreditation categories. https://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg8.htmlTbum777 (talk) 17:17, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

misleading to say that the school was unaccredited from 2010-2015 as the accreditation process is not instantaneous. On February 12, 2013, Midwest University was approved for Candidate status by ABHE. The accrediting agency ABHE is recognized for their preaccreditation categories. https://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg8.html

Unfair to pick and choose references that don’t back up your claims. I have provided you with a reference as your statement is not entirely correct. Preaccredited status is recognized and statement should be revised to reflectTbum777 (talk) 19:30, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I didn't add that statement, but the source that was added in conjunction with the statement mentions the "preaccreditation" status. I've updated the article to reflect this, though other editors may change or revert this information further. Remember, no one here is trying to be "unfair"; we are here to build an encyclopedia. Once again, I encourage you to assume good faith, rather than otherwise guess at the intent of the editors here.  Eyer ^contact  19:50, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

My apologies. Perhaps the word unfair was not the right word to use. Does not appear editors have an impartial tone in my opinion. No one is guessing the intent as it’s been obvious seeing conversations between editorsTbum777 (talk) 21:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Hey I want to say that my rudeness was uncalled for earlier this week . Please understand that I deal with many higher education institutions (and their PR departments) and sometimes I’m impatient with their lack of understanding that Wikipedia is not another venue to promote their institutions. I don’t believe that Midwest necessarily has bad intentions, but I am skeptical of any institution that is accredited nationally, and will fight vehemently to be sure credentials are backed up by fact. You’ve refused to answer so many direct questions that it’s surely understandable that I’m skeptical of your intentions. That said I’m not at all opposed to including true and verifiable information in the article. Only one of us has any skin in the game, so far you’ve called me racist, unfair, worthless, impartial, a bully, a slanderer, and biased. So, rhetorically I ask you what motivation I have to be any of these. I’m not employed by Midwest or any of it’s competitors. I am interested in what is verifiably true and creating a better, more informative encyclopedia. As secretary to the President of Midwest, don’t you think you might not be seeing as clearly as somebody unaffiliated with the school? Grey Wanderer (talk) 04:29, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for acknowledging. I understand your dealings but do not agree that you should be impatience with everyone. I am new to this site and was not aware the conflict of interest. It was my lack of understanding of how this site works so I apologize. It was not intentionally trying to cause any issues. I do not understand why the page states “This article may rely excessively on sources too closely associated with the subject, potentially preventing the article from being verifiable and neutral” As you know, I’ve been blocked for days and have not made any edits, and any edits I made prior were all reverted. I will no longer make edits to this page as I do not want to create any further issues. The way an article is edited can be perceived as bias. I’ve stated how I feel about the edits made thus far based upon reading talk pages between you and other editors and so you must understand my conclusion on the intentions. You say that you “will fight vehemently to be sure credentials are backed up by fact” I have provided you with references and edits were made by others to reflect however you’ve changed it based upon how you feel evident in the comment you made that “although preaccredited states is still unaccredited in my book”. The USDE recognizes preaccreditation, so in my opinion it doesn’t matter what is it in “your book” https://www2.ed.gov/admins/finaid/accred/accreditation_pg8.html I cannot tell you exactly what your motivation is but I am guessing that you have generalized some types of schools and already have a preconception on how you think they all are. Again, despite the references I’ve provided they are not being used by choice of editors.https://dhe.mo.gov/public-and-independent-colleges.php Not sure how to respond to “Only one of us has any skin in the game” as I do not consider this a game. I am only interested in ensuring that accurate edits are made with a neutral point of view following regulationsTbum777 (talk) 23:25, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

It’s a figure of speech, don’t take it so literally. My point being it’s difficult if not impossible for you to fairly evaluate your own school, that’s your career, and I’m guessing [Midwest is] made up of many friends too. I certainly don’t have a particularly high quality opinion of minimally accredited evangelical bible schools, that I hope I’ve made clear. I agree that my opinion doesn’t matter however, when a well respected newspaper publishes a negative opinion that really does. Had you not attempted to edit the article, and in my opinion misrepresent the school, that information would likely have never come to light on Wikipedia. Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:04, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

You’ve been acting like this is a game so hard not to take it literally. You hold all the cards, right? the edits that I made did not misrepresent the school as it was factual information backed up with references. Let’s make it clear you threatened to post the article if I “could not prove you otherwise” Pretty sure you had your mind set to post anyway. And in my opinion, and article that does not state any references is not a reliable source. Perhaps if you claim that you don’t have a “particularly high quality opinion of minimally accredited evangelical bible schools” then you shouldn’t be editing schools of this nature as it’s biased. You clearly let your feelings influence the way you edit.Tbum777 (talk) 01:17, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Turning to productive conversation... is there any unsourced content currently on the page?  Eyer ^contact  01:28, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

It’s important critical editors examine every article on Wikipedia; politicians, businesses, and schools all deserve skeptical editors to make sure they’re representing themselves honestly. Why did you remove any reference to Christianity so many times? Your website is full of religion, and even describes you as an Evangelical School, as do independent sources. What’s the use of trying to hide it? Unless it’s to misrepresent, that seems logical to me. I asked you to explain many times before accusing you of misrepresenting, but my question was always ignored. You said James Song directed you to make those changes. Did he explain why? I was under no obligation to check with you about the diploma mill article, it’s an extraordinarily reliable source, much more so than Midwest own website. I really didn’t mean to make a threat, but to give you the opportunity to prove me wrong (which would have surprised me, but I was absolutely open to it). Why couldn’t you be open and honest about the Korean nature of the school? Why did you ignore dozens of attempts to engage you? I don’t think I hold all the cards at all, editors (even new ones!) are all equal here; although I know the Wiki bureaucracy can be esoteric and hard to navigate even for experienced editors. My feelings certainly affect how I edit, although do try to be open and honest about my biases, that why I admitted I didn’t have the highest opinion of bible colleges. I don’t think I’ve been unfair to you in any way, though I have been curt at times, and a little rude. I’ve tried to read what you’ve written carefully and respond to each point you’ve raised. I’m asking you do the same and answer some of the five questions I just asked.

Eyer, I appreciate the work you’ve done on the article and your willingness to continue to engage tbumm about content, but considering the multiple serious breaches of policy, (including COI, edit warring, and personal attacks) I think it’s appropriate to have this hard discussion about behavior before tbum is unblocked or else it seems likely another block will follow. I don’t mean that as a threat tbum, just as an experienced and pragmatic assessment of where we’re at in this content dispute. Grey Wanderer (talk) 04:13, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

I don’t recall saying the President asked me to remove the word Christianity. I removed it to add that it’s an independent, four year university. I provided you with a reference from MDHE that indicates that.Tbum777 (talk) 14:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

“Why were my changes undone? I have been instructed my the President of the institution to correct the information” You said this after making this change multiple times. When your edits received pushback you became deceptive and backpedaled ([3], [4], [5], [6], [7]). “ I am not being directed by anyone to change the information.” When you saw that a conflict of interest might be problem you were willing to lie. This is why I’m so suspicious that you wish to honestly represent the institution. When your actions are combined with a WP:Reliable source that questioned the integrity of the school, and the given institutions three-year unaccredited period I think I’m right to be suspect. I’m sure you are an independent four-year school...and also Korean Evangelical Christian. The third-party notice is on the page because Midwest’s own webpage is unfortunately the most common source of the article. At this point I’m going to disengage–I have other work to do. If you think there are improvements to be made continue to engage other editors, and use Talk:Midwest University, but remember you don’t own the article and Wikipedia is under no obligation to present the school as it wishes to be. Grey Wanderer (talk) 17:20, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

again more accusations from you. Should be clear, not all changes were directed by the President. Adding current up to date information with references is not misrepresenting the school. If stating that “ABHE and ATS are accrediting bodies recognized by the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA; www.chea.org) and the U.S. Department of Education” is misleading, I apologize but it is a true fact, is it not? Not even sure why it matters anyway as I stated any changes I made have been deleted or changed. As far as I’m concerned; it doesn’t matter what information is true or not because you are determined to edit the page the way YOU want it read. Since you are familiar with editing higher education institutions I would think you would be aware that time matters and appropriate information should be used to reflect the present. Not the past which you and the other editors are clearly doing. An article from year 2000 was used as a reference which In my opinion is just desperate. There are a couple articles used as references yet can only be seen by ProQuest users as well. The administrator review edits on this page as WP rules are not being followed. YOU should stop acting as if you own this page. Please do not contact me further. I do not have time to waste responding to all of your questions, accusations and assumptions. It’s obvious you’re going to edit the way you want. And in my opinion, since you have clearly admitted to being bias, you should be blocked from editing as well.

Korean

@User:Eyer One of the defining features of this school is it's Korean student body. This deserves top-billing in the article and should not be relegated to the academic section. Korean seems to be the main language of instruction according to the information sheet. Grey Wanderer (talk) 20:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I can move it back. How do we reconcile that classes aren't only offered in Korean, though. Is the current wording okay or do you suggest something with the word "primarily" or the like?  Eyer ^contact  20:49, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't care so much about the language issue directly as much as making sure the Korean flavor of the school is included, it's conspicuously absent at the moment and should be mentioned in the first sentence. Given Tbums information and knowing the small size of the graduate program (most recent statistics I could find listed a few dozen students at the most, instruction does seems overwhelmingly in Korean, as does enrollment). I would just use their own wording that all classes are offered in Korean, the source doesn't make clear if any classes are offered in English, but suggest that some might be, I assume depending on semester and demand. As an aside, I am doing my best to assume good faith, but Tbums willingness to dodge direct questions and misrepresent herself (still claiming no COI on her User page) has made me doubly wary of her intentions, and I'm already normally pretty wary when it comes to nationally accredited schools as I have fought misinformation often introduced by their marketing departments for many years on wiki. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:01, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I found this in the source I just added: "In 2013, international students comprised 15% of the total undergraduate students enrolled in Midwest University, and 36% of graduate students. Students from South Korea make up 17% of the undergraduate international student population and 11% of the graduate international student population." 17% of 15% is only 2.5%... I think something about the Korean history and language should be in there, but I'm not sure if we should overstate it given the enrollment figures there...  Eyer ^contact  21:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh good find. While that source is measuring nationality, the ethnic Korean population aka Korean-Americans or Asian-Americans seems to be much higher just by perusing their website. If I had to guess I'd say 90%+, but alas I can find no source. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:16, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh man on a closer reading of that source it is not a WP:Reliable source. For instance "Midwest University is one of the largest U.S. public research-oriented universities" it has serious problems and I wouldn't believe it about anything. I'm not sure it's even talking about the same school. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I removed the source and the assertion that come from it. Midwest isn't listed in US News & World Report; it's not listed in the Carnegie classifications... I'm sure it's a real university, but it's like it doesn't exist.  Eyer ^contact  21:28, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Maybe they're talking about Midwestern University? To be frank Midwest is not listed in those standard reference works because it's not really considered a serious academic institution, but a religious one, hence it's theological classification in Missouri and Virginia. Grey Wanderer (talk) 21:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps. Another issue is that a lot of research reports on pseudonymous universities in the Midwest as "Midwest University".  Eyer ^contact  21:37, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

You're right, I'm sure.  Eyer ^contact  21:43, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Going back to the Korean issue, I think Korean-American University is the most appropriate description here. I encourage anyone who thinks otherwise to browse their website, many parts of which are exclusive in Korean. The list of faculty is particularly demonstrative. I even found a Wentzville City Council meeting where they were referred to as a Korean University, but I think they meant ethnically, as obviously it was founded and most of its activities are in the United States. Balancing these concerns Korean-American seems most appropriate. In my opinion it’s the most notable aspect of the school, and an unusual and interesting trait for a school in the Midwest Grey Wanderer (talk) 03:54, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I’m thinking it’s best to stay out of describing the university in those terms unless there is a reliable source that does so clearly. Of course, there are hardly any secondary sources about the school at all, so ...  Eyer ^contact  04:02, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I think their website as a whole is plenty sufficient, although as far as I can find it never says Korean-American, that’s quite clearly the case. I think this is a case where the preponderance of evidence is so overwhelming that, although a quotable reliable source is preferred, we can very safely make that claim using the whole website as a source. Grey Wanderer (talk) 04:09, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Found something useful. In 2006, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch described the school as "Midwest University, which is a Korean seminary" and as a "Korean seminary and university". (I forgot to sign this...)  Eyer ^contact  04:??, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Okay. Found two good articles in the local paper describing the school as being a Korean seminary, changing its name, building a dormitory, and looking to expand its local presence. I've incorporated both sources into the article to tell more of a story about the university. Feel free to edit or revert. If you don't have access to ProQuest and have questions about any of the information, I am happy to discuss it in more detail.  Eyer ^contact  04:55, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Ah finally, that’s the kinda source I was wanting. It appears “Midwest Theological Seminary” was the name the school was founded under and kept for about two decades, according to U.S. Department of education records and the wayback machine’s archives of their website. Grey Wanderer (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Diploma mill

here is an article by Korean newspaper Korea JoongAng Daily that calls Midwest University a "diploma mill." It is the only English language source that I can find, but it suggest there are more in Korean. Institutions such as this present themselves to Koreans overseas as American Universities (perhaps that's why it's called Midwest?) and make a quick buck while rewarding the victims with nearly worthless degrees. I find this practice abhorrent morally, particularly when it comes dressed up with a religious front. I don't generally add this kind of criticism to articles, preferring to give them the benefit of the doubt, unless I catch the schools actively trying to misrepresent themselves on Wikipedia. I felt that they did this when James Song directed User:Tbum777 to add ATS associate membership then a blurb about them being a nationally recognized accrediting agency, despite being unaccredited by them! I also feel that they want to minimize the significance of the Korean student body, because they wish to represent the school as a mainstream American University to potential students overseas. If any of this is way off base, and they are a legitimate institution I apologize, but given my experience that seems unlikely. Grey Wanderer (talk) 23:17, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I like your edit. I added some dates and the TRACS withdrawal event for more context. I also moved all the accreditation to the "Academics and accreditation" section. Feel free to edit further or revert at will.  Eyer ^contact  00:06, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, looks good to me. If I manage to find another "diploma mill" source I may add something to the lead, but until then I think this is the right balance as I would hate be wrong about such a claim, and would really prefer more than the one source, even if it is super reliable. Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:11, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree. This is purposely written to give the benefit of doubt and time, whether the newspaper's claim is true or not. Regardless, all statements made are verifiable as-is. The more I work with this article, the more curious I am about the organization. Next time I am in DC, I might look them up. :). Thanks for you partnership on this (and in advance through the next several days of discussion on the matter.)  Eyer ^contact  00:14, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! Your level-headed and benefit-of-the-doubt approach rightly stayed my hand for a few days. The article is better for all the work you've done. Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I returned the U.S. Department of Education info on the unaccredited years, but used the strictest definition of unaccredited. I think it's important to note. Grey Wanderer (talk) 22:26, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Colleges of Education, Music, Business

If the article is going to emphasize these as academic subdivisions I think it also needs to note that they are unaccredited by the usual agencies that accredit such colleges such as the National Association of Schools of Music and the International Assembly for Collegiate Business Education. Grey Wanderer (talk) 16:57, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

You know more about this topic than I do. (I’m working on a master’s in education, but higher ed isn’t my focus.) My thought was to have a subsection for each college, listing the programs offered by each one (and eventually more info, like the program history, the construction of the music building and the like). Perhaps there could be statements about individual program accreditations in these subsections?  Eyer ^contact  17:08, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Grey Wanderer: Be careful of wandering into WP:OR territory. ElKevbo (talk) 17:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Eyer: It may be helpful to review our advice on college and university articles as well as our policy about "due weight." Articles should ideally be written primarily with independent sources and I'm skeptical that an institution of this size and narrow focus has been the subject of many independent sources so it's very unlikely that it would be appropriate to delve into a lot of detail about its colleges. ElKevbo (talk) 17:59, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Good points, both of you. Unless I can find anything, I won’t bother. (And I fear that I’ve already hit my limit of finding independent sources when I searched ProQuest and only found two articles.)  Eyer ^contact  18:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, ElKevbo, I know I've been flirting with that and probably did cross the line, at least here on the talk page. Do you think any of the content currently in the article is borderline WP:OR? If so I'll remove it. Grey Wanderer (talk) 22:28, 18 July 2019 (UTC)