Jump to content

Talk:Midnight Sun Mosque/GA1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: AleatoryPonderings (talk · contribs) 22:59, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's not the mosque's home page ... it doesn't seem to have one, or I would definitely have made a lot of use of it. It's the town's page for the mosque, since it's sort of a tourist attraction (I mean, why else would I have been walking around town around 12 a.m. (as you can see, you really can't say "in the middle of the night" although in every other way it might as well be; it's sort of like everyone's doing a grand version of day for night) looking for it on the "night" before we left?).

Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. If there's a Muslim term equivalent to "non-denominational", I'd love to use it. Daniel Case (talk) 07:31, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't feel there's anything wrong with non-denominational. Link to Non-denominational Muslim if you'd like – Reidgreg (talk) 01:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm generally against using italics for words transliterated from other languages (eg musallah, biryani (which IMO is just the English word for the dish at this point) since it seems to distance them from the reader unnecessarily, but idk if MOS says anything for or against this so it won't be a factor in my analysis.
Actually, it does say exactly to do that at MOS:FOREIGNITALIC if the word isn't in common use in English (so I'll deitalicize "biryani" and "imam" on those grounds). Daniel Case (talk) 07:22, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The long sentence in the lede beginning "When Ramadan, with its daily fasts …" may be a run-on and is definitely a bit confusing. I'm wary of changing the meaning so didn't want to edit myself—could you parcel it off into smaller sentences?
 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 07:26, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a large Indian Muslim community in Inuvik? Mentioning biryani in the lede implies that that's effectively the default iftar meal, which might require some sourcing in the body if that's the desired implication. Fwiw iftar does not mention biryani.
I'm guessing from the way it's discussed that it's a rather common iftar meal. I could rephrase it slightly. Daniel Case (talk) 07:26, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's the fault of our article, unfortunately. The Britannica defines a bay thusly:

any division of a building between vertical lines or planes, especially the entire space included between two adjacent supports

Since windows and doors have to fit in between supports (probably studs in this building's case), it's often assumed that the space taken by one window or a single door counts as a bay whether it's actually used for fenestration or not. That's how I get the three-by-four count.
I removed the reference to bays bc I didn't see how it aided understanding (especially since Bay (architecture) is pretty confusing) but I'm not overly concerned about it either way. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 18:53, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@AleatoryPonderings: Actually, since as was pointed out at WT:DYK, the architecture of this building is not really what makes it notable, I think we can let this go. Daniel Case (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a fragment beginning with "casement windows" in the fourth paragraph under #Building and location.
 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 07:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Fenestration links to a DAB page. You probably want Fenestration (architecture). – Reidgreg (talk) 01:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can you double check this edit? I wasn't sure if "wide dark flat" referred to the windows or their surroundings. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:03, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, I realized less is more. Daniel Case (talk) 05:13, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • [1] doesn't appear to discuss the building's architecture in text. In the fourth paragraph of #Building and location, are you referring to the photo included in that article?
Yes. Perhaps we should add note of that to the footnote? Daniel Case (talk) 07:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:03, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • [2] doesn't support the claim that the minaret is "Turkish style".
I have added a source for that specifically and changed it to "Ottoman style". Daniel Case (talk) 00:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe I'm looking at the wrong page, but I don't see "The Islamic presence in the Inuvik area began with …" in Praying to the West at 279; it just says Baker was the first Muslim elected in Canada.
That was from the other source that we deleted because it was a blog. I'll take it out, or see if I can find a separate one for that. Daniel Case (talk) 07:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Daniel Case (talk) 07:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In those early days ..." Do you mean before 2000?
Yes. Reworded. Daniel Case (talk) 07:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Many of the families who worshipped there had to send their children elsewhere in Canada to be educated in their faith." Confused here - the preceding paragraph says the families were already in southern Canada, where I'd expect more places to practise and learn about Islam than the Arctic circle. Where is "elsewhere"?
South of 60, so reworded. Daniel Case (talk) 07:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • " ... after quotes for construction costs reached" - looks like a missing clause after "reached".
 Fixed Yeah, that was from the original sourcing, from which I had gotten the impression that they really did want to build it on site there, but only after they costed it out did they realize the prefab idea was better (and without prefab buildings Inuvik would be a lot smaller). Mouallem is clearer on prefab being the original plan. Daniel Case (talk) 07:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the ZTF decided it would be cheaper to have the mosque prefabricated …" Was ZTF doing this because it had worked well for Guisti in Thompson MB? Are ZTF and Guisti essentially one and the same? Reads a little odd since you describe the same thing happening for the Thompson mosque in the previous paragraph but refer to it as a new idea here.
See above. Daniel Case (talk) 07:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Still somewhat concerned about this source. Is this a WP:ABOUTSELF-type situation, since it's a firsthand account from Guisti?
I'm trying to use it only when he fills in more details of the story Mouallem already tells. Daniel Case (talk) 07:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Only case where I'm actually concerned about it as a source is to ref "there were still five Muslim families in town in 1995". Since the article said he hadn't heard of Inuvik before 2010, I doubt Muslim population in Inuvik circa 1995 would be something within his personal knowledge. All the other bits look fine since they're details of the story that he would be personally familiar with. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:13, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I made it less specific. Daniel Case (talk) 05:55, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I removed that piece. I didn't think it was essential for the meaning anyway, especially since we have more recent statistics and the mosque wasn't built till much later. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 14:25, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The food bank was the first real one to be established in Inuvik, according to the mosque leadership." What would a fake food bank be?
The mosque leadership told Mouallem that there had previously been one woman who accumulated canned food which she made available for mere $10 contributions in return for whatever reasonable amount you wanted. They didn't consider that a true food bank. I will edit to be clearer. Daniel Case (talk) 06:57, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... the MWC ships at least $35,000 worth of donated halal food, available to all residents for free once every two weeks if they have registered." They bring in 35k of donated food every two weeks? I'm not familiar with budgeting an entire town's food supply but that seems like an awful lot.
OK, I should have been clearer. It does not seem to me from the source that that much food is shipped up to Inuvik that frequently. Mouallem doesn't give a time period, but a year sounds more reasonable. The "two weeks" is how often registered households can get food. Daniel Case (talk) 06:57, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Inuvik grocery bills for two weeks can be about $350 per person [3], so that's enough to feed 100 people, or supplement food costs for 1,000. The latter figure is about one-third of the population, which seems to fit the figures in the article. Oh, when I say 'supplement', from what I know of food banks, it's like they let you pick up food once every couple weeks, and you get enough food for a couple days or, more likely, non-spoilable foods you can't get locally that you can spread out for a couple weeks. As noted, reindeer and fish are plentiful, so it's probably other foods to supplement that, when a lot of families are going to have one person doing subsistence hunting/fishing. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Midnight Sun Mosque's worshippers decided to use the times of sunrise and sunset at Mecca, but on Edmonton time, which like Inuvik is in the North American Mountain Time Zone ..." Why is Edmonton relevant if it's in the same time zone as Inuvik? Also [4] doesn't mention Edmonton or Mountain Time.
    I agree, the flow is thrown off by the mention of Edmonton. Suggest: The Midnight Sun Mosque's worshippers decided to use the times of sunrise and sunset at Mecca, shifted nine hours to the North American Mountain Time Zone. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Probably just fine. I think the Guardian's correspondent decided to use Edmonton because they a) knew readers would know where that city was and b) either didn't understand that it's in the same time zone or c) didn't care.

I mean, it's easy to assume that Inuvik is on Pacific Time ... it's sort of due north of BC, and if you've flown to Inuvik from Vancouver during midnight sun nothing up there would do much to correct that impression (The weird part ... all of Yukon is on Pacific time, so the whole time we were in Ivvavik we were yet another hour back, but of course the sun was out all 24 hours, and we were in the wilderness, so for once nobody really knew what time it was, in the sense that we didn't really need to and so we didn't really care). Daniel Case (talk) 06:55, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Amier Suliman remarked ..." Who is Amier Suliman?
One of the other people in the mosque. Will clarify. Daniel Case (talk) 07:33, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 07:58, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • AFAICS Mouallem does not use the word "musallah", preferring "Islamic centre"—where does the idea that the trailer is a musallah come from?
It seems this was a word used in the sections of Islam in the Arctic that were copied here. You are correct ... I cannot find the source Ponderosapine used; it's not over there. So I will be changing it. Daniel Case (talk) 07:58, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where exactly does the November 10 opening date come from?
 Fixed Well, it wasn't in the sources I had inherited. I found it in Canadian North's in-flight magazine, actually. Daniel Case (talk) 06:25, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The internet is a strange and wonderful place ... AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:19, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This piece, although published in WaPo is tagged as an opinion piece—what makes it reliable? I'm not sure why it's tagged as opinion TBH because it looks more like reporting, but for some reason that's how they chose to present it.
You got me on that one ... I wonder if maybe they originally published it on Sunday, in that big "opinion" section where sometimes what they put in includes more feature-y pieces like this one. I think we can assume anyone checking it can see the difference. Daniel Case (talk) 06:31, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with this, especially since you cite it for: (1) stuff about time zones which is not exactly controversial info; and (2) direct quotes. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:19, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be ready to pass this once the above are resolved. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 00:10, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel Case, just two outstanding issues from my perspective, both small—could you check the items that are not struck out above? Reidgreg, especially since you said your comments are friendly advice and are not meant to hold up the GA review, I will treat them as such and plan to pass this once DC has responded to my two remaining comments. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 19:22, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objections. The lead length is part of MOS:LEAD which is under GA criteria 1b, but I've seen GANs pass with such minor deviations. Most of the rest is a judgement call whether the prose is understandable (GA) or of professional quality (FA). – Reidgreg (talk) 00:26, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've passed it; didn't think it worth holding up GA status any further. I addressed the one remaining content concern to my satisfaction—especially since DC has now added some authoritative and interesting statistics, I didn't think specificity re Muslim population in 1995 was helpful if it wasn't authoritatively sourced. We can, of course, continue discussing any GAN-related issues on this page as needed, but I think the article meets the criteria now and have passed it for that reason. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 14:34, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Reidgreg

[edit]

Great article. I thought I'd butt in with a few comments (some above). These are intended as friendly advice and are not meant to hold up the GA review. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Prose:

  • It is the northernmost mosque in the Western Hemisphere[3]—and, of the few mosques above the Arctic Circle, the only one in North America.[1][4]. The structure of this sentence is a bit complex for the lead paragraph, which should be easily readable at a glance. (Generally, we should try to avoid dashes in the lead.) Suggest: It is the northernmost mosque in the Western Hemisphere[3] and in North America, and one of the few mosques above the Arctic Circle.[1][4]
The point is that it's the only mosque above the Arctic Circle that's in North American. See what you think about my effort to reword. Daniel Case (talk) 06:11, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, though the part after the semicolon is lacking a verb. I would change the semicolon to 'and'. – Reidgreg (talk) 23:55, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Religious observances at the mosque, done per Sunni tradition Could you use a different word than done? Suggest: performed, conducted by, held by
 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:11, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had some more suggestions for the lead but there may be a bigger issue. MOS:LEADLENGTH recommends a lead of one or two paragraphs given the article's size. I'd probably be okay with three paragraphs but four seems a bit too long to me. So a rewrite might be in order. I could take a crack at it if you'd like.
I was writing the lead to summarize the article within no more than four grafs. I was also writing with DYK in mind, where a lot of reviewers prefer that you put all the hook facts in the intro. I had four separate hooks proposed, and if I'm going to do that I take enough pride in my written work that I am going to make sure those facts have context, dammit, and aren't just thrown in there randomly to satisfy a reviewer.

Since I'm planning to renominate after this is promoted, I want to be able to use the same four hooks. After it gets to the Main Page, I suppose we could trim the intro down to three grafs, or even two. There's some fat in the intro in absolute terms, I agree, by design per above. But I am wary of committing to the recommendations at LEADLENGTH because things like that can too easily become a Procrustean bed. Daniel Case (talk) 06:11, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's a new one to me. DYK rules D1 and H5 state that the hook fact must be in the article (with citation), but do not mention the lead. WP:DYK1P, which transcludes most if not all DYK infopages, does not mention "lead" or "lede" at all. The MOS:LEADLENGTH guideline, which is an extension of basic summary style, has been around for more than ten years, so I would think it should supersede a DYK reviewer's preference. – Reidgreg (talk) 23:55, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Reidgreg:I have been thinking of researching and writing an article on rulemaking by assumption because we have so much of it here.

You are right that the DYK rules don't specify this, but neither do they explicitly say this isn't necessary. I have probably done around a thousand reviews, and I don't care, but I've had enough reviewers say, basically, if it's important enough to be the hook fact, well then it's important enough to be in the intro. And in that situation ... well, you can either argue "you don't have to", or you can accede. No prizes for guessing which one's the path of least resistance.

Until it's been reviewed and the reviewer doesn't care, I will prepare for the possibility that they do. Daniel Case (talk) 03:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • from its junctions with Navy and Adams roads Should roads be capitalized? Also, could from be replaced with east/west of, if that is known?
I cut my copyediting and writing teeth back in the 1990s, when AP and Chicago both commanded that, in the plural, capitalized elements of placenames (usually streets or governmental/administrative subdivisions) be loewrcased. So I still do it that way.

On the other hand, I am aware that style manuals, such as those two, have largely changed that position 180º in the past 10-15 years, now calling for them to capitalized.

Here at Wikipedia, MOS:CAPS is silent on this at present. So I guess it's editor preference as long as we are consistent throughout the article. Daniel Case (talk) 06:35, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As for replacing "from",  Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:38, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • a gently pitched front gabled roof Could you hyphenate "front-gabled"? I think that'd make it easier to read the string of compound modifiers.
 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The north (front, facing toward Mecca over the North Pole,[9]) is topped by a Remove the comma after Pole. Also, there seems to be a word missing there. Maybe "The north face/side/facade"?
 Done Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • white octagonal tower. with a looping pattern. The period after tower should be a comma.
 Done 06:54, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Fenestration is casement windows with wide flat plain flat dark blue surrounds. I think there's an extra flat in there, and dark-blue could be hyphenated.
 Fixed per above. In my experience "dark blue" usually isn't hyphenated. But is this more common in Canadian usage? Daniel Case (talk) 06:54, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On its own, I would never hyphenate it. But when used in a string of modifiers, hyphenation can help it read a little easier. I believe British English is more likely to hyphenate than American English, with Canadian English somewhere inbetween. – Reidgreg (talk) 23:55, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second and third are more widely spaced than the first two. This is a little confusing... usually "the first two" includes "the second".
 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 09:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The east profile is identical to the west one, except without the wheelchair ramp. "except without" seems a bit awkward to me (it almost looks like a double negative). Maybe: The east profile mirrors the west, absent the wheelchair ramp.
 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 09:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • and is lined with ornate red carpet donated by a man from Dubai. Is the unnamed man from Dubai important enough to mention? Perhaps instead mention it is an imported carpet, if that is sourced.
That was from the original author ... now that the article has been expanded this probably goes in the section on the opening, because the guy flew all the way from Dubai to make the donation. Daniel Case (talk) 09:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Muslims in Inuvik Does this section header make sense under History (of the building)? Perhaps it should simply be "Background"?
Well, the existence of a Muslim community in a remote town in the Canadian Arctic is not exactly intuitive. In order to have a mosque, you've got to have Muslims. So I thought there ought to be more specificity. Daniel Case (talk) 09:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done per MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES (This is a bit confusing inasmuch as article titles for dual-national ethnic groups do not seem to be hyphenated, and there seems to be a growing move toward not hyphenating the noun, with some movement for the adjective form as well). Daniel Case (talk) 09:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per above, we took that part out because we were not sure the source knew what he was talking about. Daniel Case (talk) 09:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inside prayer rows were marked on the carpet with tape; on Fridays men took turns leading the services and giving the jumah sermon to a packed house.[9] I think a comma after Inside and I would tend to make a sentence break at the semicolon.
 Done Daniel Case (talk) 09:40, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The modest structure they had in mind would be half a million Canadian dollars. be → cost
 Done Daniel Case (talk) 03:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel like the third and fourth paragraphs of section Transport and construction of mosque should swap positions.
 Done Daniel Case (talk) 03:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Was the entire mosque carried on one truck, or were prefabricated sections spread amongst several trucks?
It seems from the sources (particularly the description of the bridge near-disaster) that it was on one truck. IME prefab buildings of that size are usually transported on single oversize trucks.
Followup:  Fixed Per this source it was trucked in two sections. Daniel Case (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • the mosque finally reached its destination in late September. Finally is one of those words we generally try to avoid using. It editorializes, suggesting that the writer felt something took longer than it should have. In this case, it should be factually evident to the reader that the transport took longer than expected, so it really isn't needed.
 Done Also it's sort of redundant here. Daniel Case (talk) 03:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the mosque's completion, the Muslim Welfare Centre in Toronto provided the funds to purchase an adjacent property to set up the "Arctic Food Bank". It distributes groceries to the town's population Suggest moving these sentences down to the Food bank section, with the phrasing: A property adjacent to the completed mosque was purchased for a food bank, funded by Toronto's Muslim Welfare Centre. Called the Arctic Food Bank, it distributes groceries to the town's population
Already  Done. It made sense to have one graf before the article was expanded, but when I realized we had two other grafs, I moved it to that subsection where it now made a lot more sense. Daniel Case (talk) 03:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • the food bank is generously supplied I feel generously could be stricken.
 Fixed Reworded
  • so the mosque gets little of this meat. gets → accepts or receives
 Done Daniel Case (talk) 04:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • the month of the Islamic calendar when God revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad I feel it may be problematic to state this as fact. Rather than a possibly controversial rephrase, perhaps it could be removed as unnecessary to the article?
 Fixed Daniel Case (talk) 04:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I hope this isn't too much of a laundry list. I didn't want to make even small changes to the article while you're doing fixes for the GAN. Thanks Daniel Case for your work on this article and to AleatoryPonderings for your thorough review. – Reidgreg (talk) 01:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Midnight_Sun_Mosque/GA1&oldid=1065964788"