Talk:Middle school/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Middle school. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Pedagogy - a N American view?

I'm interested to read the pedagogy section that has been added - and generally agree with its principles. However, I'm not convinced that it's in the right place. I suspect that the pedagogy might refer to the principles of the movement in North America, or perhaps Australia. It certainly doesn't align with those of Middle Schools in England. For a start, ours cover quite a different age range (limited to being ages 8-13, rather than 10-15); likewise, other features of that section like the mention of "authentic assessment" are very US-centric. Never heard of it in the UK. (But then, I think our assessment was always more authentic than the US anyway) Tafkam 10:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The thinking behind this is that the article might be structured in two parts: the first as an explanation of the theory of middle schooling, and secondly, how middle schools are done around the world.

The first part would be split between the two pedagogies: a mere 'business as usual' 'bricks and mortar' version, and the 'Middle School as a pedagogy'. This latter pedagogy can't be North American if it also appears in Australia.

The second part would be divided into continents, or simply alphabetically. This would give how the different pedagogies play out in different countries I guess we are are part of a longer project, that will need contributions from different countries (eg Europe is just former Yugoslavia and Britain, so far!)

I've got some what contributors might consider offering material which I'll be offering in about a week, but today was to make a start.Adrian Glamorgan 11:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see your thinking, but might this article not become a little unwieldy? Perhaps what is needed is a more general overview, including the sort of addition you've made, and the for the relevant national sections to be incorporated into the Education by country articles? Tafkam 17:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Pedagogy - a N American view?

I'm interested to read the pedagogy section that has been added - and generally agree with its principles. However, I'm not convinced that it's in the right place. I suspect that the pedagogy might refer to the principles of the movement in North America, or perhaps Australia. It certainly doesn't align with those of Middle Schools in England. For a start, ours cover quite a different age range (limited to being ages 8-13, rather than 10-15); likewise, other features of that section like the mention of "authentic assessment" are very US-centric. Never heard of it in the UK. (But then, I think our assessment was always more authentic than the US anyway) Tafkam 10:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The thinking behind this is that the article might be structured in two parts: the first as an explanation of the theory of middle schooling, and secondly, how middle schools are done around the world.

The first part would be split between the two pedagogies: a mere 'business as usual' 'bricks and mortar' version, and the 'Middle School as a pedagogy'. This latter pedagogy can't be North American if it also appears in Australia.

The second part would be divided into continents, or simply alphabetically. This would give how the different pedagogies play out in different countries I guess we are are part of a longer project, that will need contributions from different countries (eg Europe is just former Yugoslavia and Britain, so far!)

I've got some what contributors might consider offering material which I'll be offering in about a week, but today was to make a start.Adrian Glamorgan 11:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see your thinking, but might this article not become a little unwieldy? Perhaps what is needed is a more general overview, including the sort of addition you've made, and the for the relevant national sections to be incorporated into the Education by country articles? Tafkam 17:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Article should be split.

CowboyJMB: I believe that this article should be split in two, as the Junior High School and Middle schools are clearly different systems. (comment by 69.242.11.15, 2 September, 2005)

It appears from the article that, it a lot of the world, they're essentially interchangable. I think it makes the most sense to have Junior high school redirect here, unless someone has some arguments for separating them. -GTBacchus 02:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Polish Gimazjum (Gymnasium) is a type of middle school. exe 09:24, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

The 'United States' section makes my head hurt when I try to read it. {unsignedIP|70.68.181.169|00:03, 10 March 2006 }}

I agree that it should be split. When can we do it? (MrsMacMan 14:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

MrsMacMan--you're replying to comments from 2005. Perhaps you should focus on replying to comments from this year. And as I stated on my talk page, when can't happen until there's consensus for it. And a way forward. There's been no explanation so far of how the systems are different, and there's no differentiation within the article, so a split is not only not obvious, but I would have no clue of how it could be done without further information. Perhaps you could add a new section to the talk page of why you think two articles are needed? Give us some of the facts, some of the content that would be needed to do it? Miss Mondegreen talk 15:06, June 13 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page from Middle school to Junior high school, per the discussion below. The country I'm in only uses the term "junior high school", so there's no bias here. It seems important, though, to respect WP:ENGVAR. Dekimasu よ! 00:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Strong oppose. Junior high school is a less contemporary term. Georgia guy 16:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Strong oppose. Middle school has a specific meaning for UK schools. The term junior high school is not used in the UK and there is no history of the term ever being used in the UK. As far as I am aware junior high schools only exist in the USA and perhaps in a few other countries which copy the American education system. Middle school is a much more inclusive term. If the term middle school is not used in the US then the solution would be to create a separate page for Junior High School to cover the American meaning of the word. Dahliarose 16:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Strong oppose I have only heard "junior high" as a regionalism, even in the U.S.. Reginmund 17:51, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Strong oppose.I have made my feelings clear, but I really do feel that the term 'middle school' can be seen as inclusive of junior high, junior secondary, intermediate and middle-years schools; the reverse is not true in any case. Tafkam 21:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Support - as nominator. In the UK and some other countries, they call it a middle school. But in other countries, they use junior high schools. Why should this article be called middle school when other countries use junior high school? This article should reflect all countries, not certain countries. I have listed this page on Wikipedia:Requested moves. -- (MrsMacMan 22:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC))
Oppose It's not just a UK. I live in the US (western New York State to be specific) and have never seen a "junior high school", only "middle schools". Junior High School appears to be a old term that is being made less and less common as time goes by. TJ Spyke 23:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Strong Oppose, due to faulty logic of nomination. Why should the article be changed to "junior high school" when other countries use "middle school"? It would be nice if the article title could reflect all countries, but if it's a case of one or the other then we should stick with what we've got. PC78 23:15, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Middle school vs. Junior high school

Is the term junior high school still common as it was 10 years ago?? Georgia guy 21:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

As the article states, the terms have become less synonymous over time, but that isn't because one has necessarily supplanted the other. Both terms seem to be in common use, it's just that they increasingly mean something different and specific. Whether there are more middle schools and less junior high schools than there were ten years ago -- which would affect how common the terms were used, I suppose -- may be countable, but there are too many factors to consider here. Some schools have gone from a Junior High School model to a Middle School model; some have gone the other way; changes in population and other factors continue to cause restructuring in many districts. Jfarber 18:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

And of course, all of that is from an entirely US-centric model - we never had the 'Junior High' label here in the UK Tafkam 20:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

True dat. But given the americanism "guy" in the username, it seemed safe to assume he's not askin' from Georgia, the village in Cornwall. Jfarber 21:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Middle school and junior high school is the same thing. A senior high school is a school attended after junior high school. I think it would be confusing saying middle school. Junior high and senior high are almost the same thing. They both offer electives unlike an elementary school. Junior and senior high schools are similar. It is just showing the differences between elementary school and junior or senior high school. (209.177.21.6 - talk)

I go to a 7-12th grade high school, and I'm confused by these terms. Is a school that goes from 7-12th not a high school? Or is it just not a Senior high school? The schools aren't divided. ɱўɭĩє ^{What did I do}_wrong 17:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

A high school is a school attended after elementary school, usually comprising grades nine through twelve. If the 7-12 school is attended after elementary school, then it is considered a high school. If your school system doesn't have a junior high school, then it's not a senior high school. Hope that clears it up. (MrsMacMan 18:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Except of course, they're clearly not! For a start, middle schools exist in the UK, and junior high schools don't. Don't forget this is supposed to be an international encyclopedia! Tafkam 21:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

i personally hate schools and the way they teach their kids the schools ways and beliefs like the big bang. my dad raised me as a christian and i wont take it. says john alba from titusville Fl.

I've only just stumbled across this page after discovering that middle school bizarrely redirects to a page called Junior High School. Surely this page should be retitled Middle School or split into two separate articles. Middle school has a specific meaning in the UK and it makes no sense to get diverted to a page talking about American junior high schools. Dahliarose 12:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

To further complicate things for those aspiring an international article, the literal translation of the Dutch name for secondary education (12-18) is "Middle school". --User:Krator (t c) 15:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Well my old school was renamed ___ Junior School from Town Middle. [Posted by User:OsirisV ]

That's not unusual - lots of middle schools in England have closed or been converted into Junior schools in recent years, but they are very different from the US Junior High type school. Tafkam 17:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Question: What if a town has both a middle school and a junior high school? Clearly they can be different. While Concordia Middle School grades 5-6 and Concordia Junior-Senior High School grades 7-8, 9-12 may be exceptions, it is worth consideration.--Paul McDonald 20:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Dubious citation

A citation under #Canade and United States seems somewhat spurious to me as it is part of a site whose declared aim is "Mission: These are the meshugas of the Stammtisch Beau Fleuve. Our mission: to explore strange news items, to seek out intelligent life within this civilization (preferably within hailing distance of the lunch table), to examine boldly the handbasket the universe is going to hell in." [1]. It seems to be a personal site and therefore of no value for citing. If I have missed something and this is in fact a valuable source site please correct me but if I hear nothing constructive in a day or so I will remove the citation. Abtract (talk) 14:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it should be removed as a home page. I don't see where it is to do it, though. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. Abtract (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather than just delete the whole reference, and then remove this article from the MS disambiguation page, you could have done a quick google for a new reference, which I have done. I have also reverted your deletion of this article from MS (disambiguation). This is a common abbreviation, many middle schools abbreviate their name this way, and there are numerous online resources specifically defining this abbreviation. Dethme0w (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Mmmmm. I sense a certain element of disapproval in your tone. I removed the mention and the citation because the latter was clearly spurious. If you wish to go for another citation please do so but the one you just tried did not work; I will give you time to correct it before I remove that one too. Please bear in mind that using MS as part of the abbreviation for their name - Blahblah Middle School = BMS - is not the same as defining MS as a common abbreviation for middle school per se ... but you know that I am sure. :) Abtract (talk) 19:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK now you have fixed the link I see where you are going. Though it is hardly an academic or hugely reputable citation I won't fight you on it. I still have the feeling that ms is used only as a suffix in abbreviations for the names of schools (as I said above "Blahblah Middle School = BMS") rather than as a standalone usage, such as "I sent my son to the local MS". But, hey, life's too short to worry. Abtract (talk) 20:02, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I see your point about MS being a sub-abbreviation (i.e. the total acronymization of the school's name) but while googling for the ref I also saw lots of schools that, when abbreviating, kept the school's basic name intact and then followed with MS (e.g. "Gordon Bennett MS"), and that is where I see MS as a valid acronym. Dethme0w (talk) 20:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

We can draw a parallel to HS - the acronym for High school is there and apparently unchallenged. And we both know that that abbreviation is also mainly used in the names of high schools. If we dropped MS as an abbreviation for middle school, we'd have to do the same to HS for the same reason. As you've probably noticed, I have inclusionist leanings and would rather leave both alone. Dethme0w (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK good point, I am for including rather than excluding but sometimes when I get a bee on my bonnet ... Abtract (talk) 20:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

References & Citations

Further to the ranking of this article, I have added references for the UK section. Hopefully this might inspire others to do likewise for their own nations Tafkam (talk) 19:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Middle vs Junior High debate

A drive-by user said in Talk:Middle school that he thought that this article should be split off, but, having read the Middle school article, I disagree. I don't see a lot of difference between Junior high and Middle school, except that they call it one thing in some places, and something else in others. Unless or until someone comes up with a good reason to split, I'm reinstating the redirect. A better strategy right now might be to expand the Middle school article, maybe elaborate on the differences, and thus simultaneously build a case for splitting, and create material for the putative new article, so it can be less stubby when and if it's written. Until then... -GTBacchus 03:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Junior high school should have it's own article. Middle school shouldn't have their own article. After all the term junior high school did came first. So why should middle school take over? That doesn't make sense. School districts often replace junior high schools with middle schools when demographic factors increase the number of younger students. That's the only reason why middle schools existed. I am changing the middle school article to junior high school. It makes much more sense this way. (MrsMacMan 16:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

I have brought the article back to Middle school -Junior High is a term used almost exclusively in North America, but this is a global encyclopedia; this is a much more inclusive term. If Junior High is so important then perhaps it needs its own entry. However, you'll notice that there is not a "National Junior High Schools Association" or anything similar listed. Tafkam 19:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

So...there is not a "National Middle Schools Association" either. What's your point? Middle school is often used instead of junior high school when demographic factors increase the number of younger students. Just because middle school is often used instead of junior high school doesn't make it not a junior high school. It is still called a junior high school. The only difference is that it has younger students. And also middle school doesn't include older students. Junior high school includes younger and older students. Middle school is a special name for schools that have younger students. Junior high school is more inclusive b/c it includes everything. (MrsMacMan 19:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Actually, there is a "National Middle Schools Association" in the US, and the "National Middle Schools' Forum" in the UK - both are linked to from the article itself. Again, I would argue that the term 'middle school' refers to all types of school offering education to the middle years, including junior high schools, intermediate schools, etc. "Junior High" cannot be an inclusive label since they do not exist outside the US. I will not re-revert at this stage, but will seek further advise. I really don't think this is an appropriate move. Tafkam 19:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

But..Middle school is often used instead of junior high school when demographic factors increase the number of younger students. I provided a reference for this. You work in a middle school so you should know more than I do. Isn't there more younger students at a middle school? That's because schools in the UK is called middle schools because they have younger students there. It's still called a junior high school too. Does UK have younger students in the middle schools? I don't go there but I guess they do since it's called a middle school. How is it US-centric? It is true that middle schools are for younger students. right? (MrsMacMan 19:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

I work in a UK middle school. Ours are called middle schools whatever age range they cover. However, as I say from an international viewpoint there are several organisations which cover all 'middle years' age ranges, but use the term 'middle' rather than 'junior high', for example:

National Middle Schools Association in US [2]
Middle Schools' Forum in UK [3]
European League for Middle Level Education [4]

On this premise, it seems to me that internationally 'middle' is the more appropriate term. Tafkam 20:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that in the UK, they call it a middle school for specific reasons. You just assume that UK calls it all middle schools. Is there a reference or a source to this claim saying that it is only called middle schools? Well in the United States, middle schools is only referred when there are younger students. Most high schools are called senior high schools but it's not always used. Does that mean it's not a senior high school? Of course not. It is still called a senior high school. It's just not used as much. (MrsMacMan 20:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

I live in the UK; I research three-tier education, I teach in a UK Middle School. There are only 3 legal definitions of school's in the UK: Primary (which includes schools for pupils up to age 11), Secondary (for pupils aged 12+) and Middle, which covers any groups in the centre of that range. You'll notice if you search the UK government education establishment database that currently only one open school in the UK calls itself a 'Junior High' school, but that it too is classified by the government as a middle school [5]

Notwithstanding that, my argument is not that the article should reflect UK views, but rather that it should represent the most common international term. Even a simple Google search reveals 29 million hits for "Middle School" compared to just over 1 million for "Junior High school", despite the US-centric nature of the web. I really cannot see a single argument for placing the page at 'Junior High' in preference to 'Middle'

Perhaps the opinion of a third editor should be sought? Tafkam 20:15, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

In other countries, they call it a junior high school..it just takes a matter of time for other countries to catch up. Maybe it's just the UK that calls it a middle school. Maybe they will change it soon. (MrsMacMan 20:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Firstly, junior high is an older name than middle school (as stated in the article, the first middle school WAS a junior high. Middle Schools are relatively new in Australia - they call them middle schools, not junior high. Regardless, my argument is NOT to claim that middle schools and junior high schools are the same thing, but rather that the general term 'middle school' can be seen to include junior high schools, while the reverse is not true. Tafkam 20:50, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

See..you even admit that the first middle school was a junior high school. Middle schools originally came from junior high school. So why can't the article be called junior high school? Why do you still disagree? (MrsMacMan 02:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

Because the article should reflect mainly current usage. The first schools were originally church schools - that doesn't mean we redirect all schooling articles to the Church of England article! The point I have continually made, and which you have continually ignored, is the fact that 'middle schools' is a much more widely-recognised term internationally; and this is an international encyclopedia. Surely 29million vs 1million Google entries is enough to tell you that? Tafkam 06:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I have sought a third opinion (WP:3O) Tafkam 06:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion - The debate has two clear aspects I'd like to address:

A Junior High School is a subset middle schools, but the opposite does not apply. Given a choice between the two, Middle School would appear to be a more useful term because it could cover schools that are the second of a three-tier system but are not necessarily high schools, whereas Junior High School would not.
While I agree that Middle School is more widely used from an international perpective, there is still a valid argument that the term is UK- and euro-centric similarly to how one could argue that Junior High School is US-centric. For instance, I attended both a junior and senior secondary high school here in Australia, but I've never heard of anyone calling the junior secondary school Middle School.

Of the two titles, I think Middle School is more appropriate. However given the level and nature of sensitivities involved in this debate (Brits don't want to use a Yank term for their schools, and vice versa), perhaps use of an impartial term such as Intermediate School is warranted in this case? ^{SkyIsFalling 10:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)}

How is middle school more appropriate than junior high school and intermediate school? You said after "given the level and nature of sensitivities involved in this debate". So middle school is inappropriate then. You made a mistake. (MrsMacMan 15:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

I think that UK needs to compromise with the rest of the world. The rest of the world agrees with junior high school but no....they are against the US on the idea of calling a junior high school. Can't we all be friends and just stick with one term? It gets so confusing to the reader. (MrsMacMan 15:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

I am pleased to see the change. For the record, I have nothing against the use of the term 'Junior High'. Indeed, I'd be happier to see the two articles separated - but evidence has suggested that folk in the states (pretty much the only place where both names are used) do not believe that there is sufficient difference between the two. Consequently, it seems sensible to me to use the more common international term as an umbrella term. I agree that it is confusing having two terms for such similar institutes (indeed 3 if one includes intermediate), but prefer to use the widest definition to encompass the others. Thank you for the comments of third parties. Tafkam 17:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought that the difference between Jr. High and Middle School was the curriculum, because I am a student who originally attended a Middle School, and was eventually supposed to move on to a "High School" but instead my mother lived closer to a Jr. High, and therefore I went there and it seems I am relearning every class except Orchestra and Math. Another thing is, my counselor stated that Jr. High Schools are set from 7-9 so 9th graders don't have to worry about kids who shave and drive cars already. This (as of now due to gas prices) isn't a really great idea for the time-being. However, my counselor also stated that tests made it "easier" for the Jr. High kids, did they set the curriculum to meet state/national standards but put them back behind Middle/High Schols? Thecutnut (talk) 09:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Page Numbers...?

There were a series of unsightly page numbers listed alongside quotes in the middle of the article; I can't find out where those quotes are from though, and if by chance anyone recognizes those quotes up there, hopefully they can tell me where to start. Meanwhile, I've put all the page numbers in hidden quotes to keep them out of sight temporarily. I don't know if its for the best, but I'm doing it.

--Starstriker7(^{Say hi}_{or see my works}) 20:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Re=assess

Upgraded to top importance for the schools project. This is one of the key articles for the project with a high hit rate. 11:51, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The term junior high dates back to 1394[dubious – discuss][chronology source needed] with the founding of Indianola Junior High School in Columbus, Ohio.[

1394 oh really? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.216.168.250 (talk) 06:57, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

The sentence: (Elementary is usually k-6 or k-5 middle school is normally 7-8 or 6-8 it depends on the district high school is 9-10) is not well written. Could someone clean this up, or perhaps remove it completelely? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.107.128 (talk) 22:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Age ranges

I'm not from the US or North America, and after reading this article, I have no idea what age ranges middle school may involve (besides the extreme limits of “not older than high school” and “not younger than grade school.”) This article needs that information. 89.62.97.47 15:11, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not at all sure why this is needed. IMO, it would be better to include a start date for first grade, admittedly not part of the article, for all schools everywhere. Six, say. Let people figure it out. If it is different from six, then state that in the country article. But ages are just a guess on editors parts. Guesses shouldn't be part of an encyclopedia. There is mostly no requirement that a child in sixth grade be any age. So why insert it? Student7 (talk) 15:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Definition

I disagree strongly that "middle school" and "junior high" are interchangeable. A middle school is run with a certain philosophy in mind; one with smaller communities of students, vs. a junior high, in which students attend classes throughout the building as they would in high school. For example, I teach in a middle school that has about 260 6th grade students divided into three houses. The students in my house fit into three homerooms and attend core classes together. They mix with the other two houses during elective classes and at lunch. Students in a junior high would attend classes with students from the entire grade. I believe the philosophy guiding the middle school is that students learn better in communities, though I'm not aware of the research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.25.251.82 (talk) 03:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

As pointed out by "In Asian culture, especially China, Taiwan and Hong Kong ("中学")[citation needed], plus Vietnam ("Trung học"), middle school is a synonym for secondary school.", the terms have no single internationally accepted definition. I think the whole part on interchangeability between the two terms should just be omitted as it's pointed out in more detail just below by the part that I quoted. —Drift91 (newbie) (talk) 08:46, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I think this is supposed to be a general article on schooling between elementary (up to 5th grade or 6th) and 9th grade. The subsection can explain that a different name is used and what it is and the name "middle school" means something else entirely. In other words, replace concept with mere nomenclature. Student7 (talk) 14:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Middle Schools in Ontario?

Subsection 5.1.2.2 "Ontario and Atlantic Canada" clearly states that middle schools are common in Ontario. I've lived in Ontario for about ten years and have never seen or heard about a single middle school in any city or town. I've seen secondary schools that have grades 7 and 8 because the primary school didn't have enough room to accommodate them, but this is in no way related to a middle school.

I'd like to split the Ontario and Atlantic Canada sections apart (unless Atlantic Canada is the same) and completely redo the Ontario part to say that there are no middle schools. But I don't know for a fact that there are absolutely no middle schools. I know they're not common like the article suggests, otherwise I would have heard about them. But maybe Ottawa, Toronto and/or Thunder Bay have them.

Also I just noticed that the citation is dead. The URL is registered in DNS, but the machine at that IP refuses to respond. Maybe it's just down temporarily? —Drift91 (newbie) (talk) 09:43, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm in the UK so couldn't comment on the detail, but Category:Middle_schools_in_Ontario would certainly seem to demonstrate that there is a reasonable number of middle schools - of course, I don't know how that compares to the total number of schools. Tafkam (talk) 12:06, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Category:Middle schools in Ontario. Some are really mislabeled elementary schools, but some are, apparently, real middle schools. Most schools under high school do not have articles in Wikipedia, for lack of notability. Student7 (talk) 14:29, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Origin of the term "middle school"

The article asserts "The term middle school dates to 1950 in Bay City, Michigan.[1]" with the reference being a dead link. OTOH, it didn't take me long to find an English journal from 1843 using the term [6]. I'm deleting the, now unsourced, claims. Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 17:54, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

And the claims of Indianola Junior High School are not supported by this [7] Kenilworth Terrace (talk) 18:04, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Defining the article

This article defines what is a "middle school" in English. We are not concerned that Trashtincan has a term literally translated as "middle school" that is between college and doctoral studies. This is for the school, if there is one, between elementary lower grades and what English defines as "high school" or European equivalent. The Trashtincan definition will have to go somewhere else, probably under "Education in Trashtincan." Student7 (talk) 16:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Description of entire school system

Somehow, descriptions of the entire school system got placed here from various countries. They do not belong here, but in some higher level article. Please place middle school or its equivalent, material here only. Thanks. Student7 (talk) 21:46, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

 Does anybody know how many periods there are in The United States of America?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.232.25.240 (talk) 21:57, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Chinese for High School = Middle School...?

<<Some middle schools have both stages while some have either of them. In English, a number of schools with senior stage education are translated as "High School"; but in Chinese they are all named as "Middle School".[3]>>

This claim is made repeatedly in this article, with the Chinese characters the only proof provided. The fact that 中 literally means middle has nothing to do with whether the term 中學 means middle school or high school - if it correlates to what we would consider high schools in English, then we should call them high schools. No one claims that 紅茶 is more properly called "red tea" when within the borders of Chinese speaking countries - it's the same thing as what all native English speakers call black tea, and thus we should call it black tea. Pay attention to concepts, not character-for-character translations. Next someone will be saying that university in China is actually "big school"......220.132.237.238 (talk) 05:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

I see your point. I did try to rm some of it, but using the term "senior middle school" for high school kind of threw me. I think you have the right idea. Try editing it yourself! Thanks. Student7 (talk) 23:41, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Germany

As the lead says, this is to describe "middle school" as it is used in the English speaking world. But for Germany, we have "While a school may literally be called "middle school" (Mittelschule), it is not a Middle School in the sense of this article but simply a secondary school of a certain type. Depending on Bundesland, Middle School may be comparable to either a Realschule or a Hauptschule or a combination of both."

We really are not even beginning to try to want to learn what another (non-English) country uses the literal words "middle school" for. I think we've had the same problem with Asian countries. The solution was easier because the languages are quite different. It doesn't go into this article unless it represents a school between elementary and gymnasium/high school. If it isn't a "middle school in the sense of this article" it shouldn't be in this article. Just having to explain to a reader why s/he is reading misinformation (or the material shouldn't be here) should be a clue that the material is non WP:TOPIC.

And how or why, should I rely on "Bundesland?" Am I supposed to recognize that because English is supposedly a dialect of German? :) Student7 (talk) 16:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Bullying

I was neither emotionally nor physically bullied in middle school in the 1940s. Perhaps some were. Therefore, somewhere, there should be a section on when this started and sociologists reasons as to why!

I remember seeing a mentally handicapped child who was "integrated" but merely socially promoted because he was unable to do the work, but could remain quiet during the class. Someone tried to pick on him once. Nearly everyone within hearing distance jumped down the potential bully's throat! That ended that. Middle school. Teachers had nothing to do with it, though the urban myth held that a teacher had "caused" his handicap by "throwing a book at him!" (Unlikely). Student7 (talk) 18:19, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Middle school concept

The article states "The middle school concept often involves a group of two to eight teachers, depending on the school, from different disciplines working as a team with the same group of students of the same grade level, with each teacher teaching a different subject." with no reference. In some areas in the U.S., middle schools use the same structure as junior high schools and high schools with the only difference that they comprise grades 6-8 rather than grades 7-9 or 9/10-12. Lacking a citation that says that this is predominant middle school model in the U.S., this paragraph should be deleted. Given such a citation, the paragraph should be clarified to make it clear how common this model is but that it's not the only model. --- Vroo (talk) 05:39, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I tried tweaking this a little. Mainly rm number of teachers which had nothing to do with the overall concept. This didn't really answer your criticism, so I left the tag. Student7 (talk) 18:21, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Lede not global

The lede for this article is being turned into a North-American-only view of the topic. Can American (and Canadian?) writers remember that other parts of the world have Middle Schools? The main article has regional sections for their own details. The lede should be a general description of the article without any regional specialities. Bazza (talk) 17:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

North American Entry - Lacks Details/Objectivity

JTF comments: The North America section appears to have several differences when compared to the other sections:

First, it offers no distinction of terms regarding age and grade levels, as the other sections to. Indeed, I came here because I was unsure myself which grades define "middle school" in North America (in my Philadelphia parochial school, we only termed grades K-8 as "grade school." Not sure why, but that the term isn't universal also seems worth a mention.)

Second, it raises a discussion of the term "junior high" before it brings up the term being addressed in all the other entries and on this Wiki page, "middle school."

Third, it discusses the geographically specific theories/controversies related to the way "middle school" is administered in a way that's not done in the other entries, which seems unusual.

Fourth, it discusses the topic of bullying in what seems both an unusual place to do so and which seems to imply that it's specifically a North American issue, which is most likely a flawed assumption, and finally...

Fifth, it makes no mention of Canada. Surely the North American section should be divided into a discussion of "Canada"... "United States"... and "Mexico." Jackster12 (talk) 07:53, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Good points.

The article is about "Middle school." Efforts to restrict it to that one WP:TOPIC have been problematic. Editors try to insert all sorts of non-topic material.

I kind of like "grade school" to define K-8. "Elementary school" seems to imply a middle school later. Notice that this is the sort of question we should be discussing on a project page, which tend to be dormant.

Most of us editors are one-nation editors (or maybe several nations). We don't have a worldwide prospective and were hesitant about projecting material prior to the country breakdown that would apply equally to all countries. If you have a worldwide prospective that we lack, please feel free to change the article. I don't know how far "bullying" goes as a worldwide statement, for example. Worse, the references ("studies") rarely extend very far into other countries. Hard to get really good "facts" when it comes to the third world. There's what the government claims and then there is reality. Which to believe? :)

The "junior high" business has been a problem. There are almost none left in the United States. There are schools with "Smithville Junior High" carved in cement over the doorway and still using that name, but really only containing grades 6-8, no 9th grade high school. For this reason, this gets challenged every few months by somebody.

You have appeared to change some of the material listed above. Student7 (talk) 17:36, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Middle school vs. Junior high school

Is the term junior high school still common as it was 10 years ago?? Georgia guy 21:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

As the article states, the terms have become less synonymous over time, but that isn't because one has necessarily supplanted the other. Both terms seem to be in common use, it's just that they increasingly mean something different and specific. Whether there are more middle schools and less junior high schools than there were ten years ago -- which would affect how common the terms were used, I suppose -- may be countable, but there are too many factors to consider here. Some schools have gone from a Junior High School model to a Middle School model; some have gone the other way; changes in population and other factors continue to cause restructuring in many districts. Jfarber 18:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

And of course, all of that is from an entirely US-centric model - we never had the 'Junior High' label here in the UK Tafkam 20:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

True dat. But given the americanism "guy" in the username, it seemed safe to assume he's not askin' from Georgia, the village in Cornwall. Jfarber 21:51, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Middle school and junior high school is the same thing. A senior high school is a school attended after junior high school. I think it would be confusing saying middle school. Junior high and senior high are almost the same thing. They both offer electives unlike an elementary school. Junior and senior high schools are similar. It is just showing the differences between elementary school and junior or senior high school. (209.177.21.6 - talk)

I go to a 7-12th grade high school, and I'm confused by these terms. Is a school that goes from 7-12th not a high school? Or is it just not a Senior high school? The schools aren't divided. ɱўɭĩє ^{What did I do}_wrong 17:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

A high school is a school attended after elementary school, usually comprising grades nine through twelve. If the 7-12 school is attended after elementary school, then it is considered a high school. If your school system doesn't have a junior high school, then it's not a senior high school. Hope that clears it up. (MrsMacMan 18:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Except of course, they're clearly not! For a start, middle schools exist in the UK, and junior high schools don't. Don't forget this is supposed to be an international encyclopedia! Tafkam 21:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

One way to handle this would be to rework the U.S. part of the article to include a history of the junior-high school concept, followed by the shift to the middle-school concept. (This also could be spun off into an article on the U.S. system for this age group.) While the educational community recognizes that they are separate philosophies each with its own history, it's quite true that to the layperson, it appears to be a mere name change. I'll try to work up something and put it in... I have an article in front of me from the Dallas Morning News in 1929 discussing the newest trend, the junior high school, and a speaker from the state university who addressed why Dallas should join in the movement.Lawikitejana (talk) 22:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I had trouble finding a jr. high definition that included only elementary grades in junion HIGH school. That was the origin of the name - that it overlapped traditional high school. Middle school never does, but includes sixth grade, which junior high NEVER does. Very distinct differences. Student7 (talk) 19:03, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

What, NEVER? I went to junior high school in two towns; in one of them it was grades 6-8, in the other it was grades 7-8. (I've never seen a junior high that includes 9th grade, as is mentioned in the article.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.4.237 (talk) 04:44, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

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Information on Spain is outdated

Hello,

Just wanted to say that the information on the Spanish educational system is outdated... way, way outdated! EGB and BUP disappeared around twenty years ago. Since 1997, We've been using a different system: Educación Primaria (Primary Education), first to sixth grade, up to 12 years of age; and ESO or Educación Secundaria Obligatoria (Obligatory Secondary Education), 12 to 16. Right now, what we call instituto (high school) comprises ESO + bachillerato, which is not compulsory and lasts two more years, up until you reach 18 years of age. 90.163.33.57 (talk) 12:30, 15 January 2018 (UTC)