Talk:Meyer Lansky/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Meyer Lansky. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Inconsistency

The statement "Around this period, Lansky ordered the execution of his longtime associate Siegel for stealing from the syndicate." is inconsistant with the paragraph:

"Siegel's projects in Las Vegas were failing miserably and all mafia bosses, Lansky included, were summoned to a secret meeting in Havana. While everyone else wanted Siegel killed, Lansky begged for a second chance for his friend. He was able to persuade the bosses to give Siegel a second chance, but Siegel's casino kept on losing money and a second meeting was called. This time the casino was able to turn in a small profit during the month of their second meeting, and that, together with Lansky's pleading and Luciano's hopes their old friend could still do good in Vegas, convinced them to give Siegel a third chance. That small profit turned out to be only a small hurrah, and, leading to a third meeting in Cuba. Despite Lansky's insistence they give Siegel another chance, he was killed in 1947."

24.254.232.33 04:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, there is something wrong here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.127.128.2 (talk • contribs)

Criticism

Dear Sir or Madam: If you would please refrain form the profanity and just simply state, with some sort of proof, what you are saying, someone may be willing to speak with you. Please clearly and rationally expand on your issue with the article. Thanks. L.A.F.

Ahhh the eternal persecution complex of Jews today. Lansky was a vey rich gangster, I think he and Gambino were the only 2 American gangsters to die of old age. Get over it - he was JEWISH and he was a BAD GUY. They are not mutually exclusive occurances. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.34.24 (talk • contribs)

I think he and Gambino were the only 2 American gangsters to die of old age.-- This statement here has got to be a joke. Hundreds, if not thousands, of gangsters have died of old age. Some may have died of old age in prison, but it no way conceivable were Lansky and Carlo Gambino the only gangsters to ever die of old age. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.182.147.30 (talk • contribs)

Where's your proof that it's more than a coincidence and that being Jewish and a Bad Guy is linked? Every ethnicity has their heroes and criminals idiot.--Exander 07:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Lansky didn't die of old age; he was a smoker who died of lung cancer. Nietzsche 2 (talk) 19:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Question

I'm not very well educated on this issue, but I have noticed an inconsistancy between what's on this page and what's on the Lucky Luciano page. Here it mentions that Meyer only met "Bugsie" in 1920 and on Lucky's page it says something about the Five Points Gang being formed before 1916. My only knowledge on the subjects comes from a movie I saw, Mobsters, in which Meyer and Bugsie were best friends by 1917 (the year in which the first scene in the movie is set), and met Lucky and Frank Costello that same year. I just thought I'd bring this to everyone's attention so somebody Who's well informed on the issue could fix it up. :) -Lara

Like most so-called "true crime" movies, the 1991 movie Mobsters was more fiction than fact, and actually not a very well made movie anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.182.147.30 (talk • contribs)

Actually, regarding the mob history and not specificly the events that take place in the movie, its fairly historicly accurate. Bugsie, Luciano, and Lansky were working together in the bootlegging industry in 1920. The exact date they met isn't very clear to me but this page: http://www.crimelibrary.com/gangsters_outlaws/mob_bosses/lansky/mob_3.html says its between 1914 and 1920 Jesta510 19:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The 5 Points gang was an italian gang in the late 1890's and early 1900's. I doubt Luciano was ever a member. Frank Costello lived in East Harlem, a long way from 5 points/Little Italy, and Bugsy and Meyer were jewish and they ran the Bug and Meyer Mob. These guys were never in the same gang. They were partners in many rackets but Luciano and Costello were with the Mafia. They never belonged to the 5 points gang

Meyer Lansky - truly crucial to the Italian-American mafia

Meyer Lansky and Charles Luciano are the founders of the La Cosa Nostra. Luciano was the brawn and Lansky was the brain. If it were not for Lansky, The Italian - American mafia as we knew it would not have become what it was, without his crucial and definitely structuring influence. This man is not given the full credit he deserves. Without Lansky, Luciano would have definitely not risen to the heigth where he was, and would have definitely not amassed the fortune he had, before going to prison and after being deported to Italy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.186.214 (talk • contribs)

No i'm calling BS on you here my friend. La Cosa Nostra is a Sicilian organisation, not a Jewish one. It originated around Palermo in the 19th century, check the Mafia article out to learn more. The Sicilian Mafia is infinitely more powerful, and wealthier than its American offshoot organisation, which today is a shadow of its former self. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.34.24 (talk • contribs)

REFERRING TO THE FIRST PARAGRAPH ABOVE: Who the hell writes this shit - fourteen year old boys? I'm glad it gets filtered out through moderation before it actually gets published! The spelling mistakes are atrocious. I mean, open a fuckin' dictionary before you put your little booger picking fingers to the keys. The word is spelled HEIGHT AND PRONOUNCED "HITE", NOT HEIGTH AND NOT PRONOUNCED "HEITH", as many ignoramuses are fond of proliferating these illiterate days.

In closing, PLEASE, HAVE SOME INTEGRITY HERE BOYS AND GIRLS: POLICE YOURSELVES, READ A FUCKIN' BOOK OR TWO (THE ENGLISH DICTIONARY WOULD HELP, WHILE WRITING AND USING ENGLISH!) AND PLEASE, OH PLEASE DON'T RUIN THIS GREAT SITE BY DISSEMINATING/PERPETUATING IGNORANCE!

Nobody can take your comments seriously when they are written in a SHOUTING style, and peppered with expletives which only convey seeming immaturity and anger to the reader. Perhaps you will become a serious and thoughtful Wikipedian. Then, your ideas will merit consideration. It's up to you. T.E. Goodwin 05:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.206.242.200 (talk • contribs)

Yeah La Cosa Nostra definitly wasn't founded by Lansky. I think your thinking of the Five Families and The Commission.

Lansky was Polish

Meyer Lansky was born in Grodno, Poland which back then was considered a part of Russia. This is the only reason he is referred to as a Russian Jew. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.186.214 (talk • contribs)

Yes, Lansky was Polish, but I think it's slightly more confusing than this. He was originally of Russian nationality since he was born within the Russian empire - he was born in Grodno, now in Belarus - so it would not be unfair to call him originally a Russian of Polish Jewish extraction. But all that tied him to Russia was nationality, and once that was lost, there is no real association. Grodno had in the past belonged to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but it lay in the Lithuanian, not Polish, part. However, his parents were ethnically/culturally Polish, so even after emigration it makes sense to call him Polish as well as Jewish. Since he was not born in Poland, nor in a location which historically belonged to Poland, nor did an independent Poland exist until after he had emigrated anyway, I linked to Polish Jews rather than to Poland. VivaEmilyDavies 17:36, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Arms to Israel

Did he smuggle weapons for the Haganah in 1948? -- Error 02:00, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I believe so - will research this & incorporate into the article as necessary Lewvalton 14:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Being Polish myself I can tell you that no Pole in his right mind would ever call himself Russian during the Partition of Poland. When the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth collapsed in 1796 the Poles fell under Prussian, Austrian, and Russian occupation. During that time period Poles developed a fierce sense of nationalism. There is no way that a Pole or a Polish Jew would ever call himself Russian. Matter of fact doing so was considered treasonous. "Russian on paper, Pole by blood". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.25.68 (talk) 02:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Not Polish or Russian

Lansky was Jewish by ethnicity because his native language was Yiddish, not Russian or Polish, which were both foreign languages for Jews in the Russian empire. Jews were considered an ethnic/national designation not just a religious one in the Russian empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.179.30 (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

"was a gangster born in Grodno, then part of Belarus occupied by the Russian Empire but now in Belarus". This is really funny, what Belarus? There was no Belarus untill present times, there was only an occupation of Poland/PLC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.68.232.103 (talk • contribs)

Exactly, Belarus is a nation created by the Soviets. It is entirely made up of lands that were stolen from Poland and Lithuania. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.126.146 (talk) 05:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

His birth name

I have heard his birth name was Maier Suchowljansky. Searching on Google by Maier Suchowljansky, I get 711 hits - Which name should be correct? --1523 01:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, whomever cited his birth name as such in the article was wrong, and may have actually be spelling it phonetically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.182.147.30 (talk • contribs)

Inconsistency 2

Meyer Lanksy didn't order the hit on Bugsy. He got him a second and third chance and after the casino made a profit Bugsy's girlfriend Virginia Hill stole the money Bugsy owed the mobsters and fled to Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.224.192.143 (talk • contribs)

It sounds like someone is takin the movie Bugsy way too literally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.182.147.30 (talk • contribs)

Agreed, read some history man. And Lansky didn't get him a third chance. He tried, but bugsy died. Jesta510 19:59, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

There is another theory in Gus Russo's recent book "supermob"(about Sidney Korshak)in which he claims that Moe Dalitz had a part in ordering the hit on Siegel. The Reason was that he was outraged by Siegel's battering of Virgina Hill.(page 201) Btw very interesting data on Lansky in Russo's book -from: ReaderP (Dutch) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaderP (talk • contribs) 21:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

For all those who look for facts in movies, these are dramatized facts !!!! not real facts, classic example.. Godfather, character hyman Roth stands for Lansky AND Rothstein, read the pile of books on the ´L´ subject and browse through the index, then contribute on wiki

Straitened vs. strained

I don't feel strongly enough on the subject to dispute it, but I think "straitened" is correct, and maybe a little more precise.--Mantanmoreland 15:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert on Myer Lansky, but the tone, presentation, and lack of referenes makes this article one of the poorest presentations I've come across. Handicapper 20:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I met a man named Harry Teifer, aka, "Harry the Hat" who claimed, credibly, to have been a protege of Meyer Lansky and, among other services, chauffeured a "business" guest to me with Lansky and "Mom Novak" in Miami every month for several years. The business guest, Harry told me, was Walt Disney and that Lansky in underwriting development of Disneyland wanted it designed to cultivate a casino mentality in American young people. It seems to me that Americans now live in a virtual reality and this suggestion of maniacal intent in Disney enterprises is congruent with that perception . Can anyone confirm, support or deny the allegation that Lansky was financial backer of Disneyland and interested in use it to pollute the American culture and mind?- Larry Ward Editor@CreativeSedition.com

Lacey biography/300 million?

There has been a tremendous amount written about Lansky but as far as I know, only one writer actually interviewed people who knew Lansky first hand so extensively. In particular, Lacey interviewed all three of his children (or at least, both of his sons) and Buddy, the oldest and who had some form of cerebral palsy, seems to have provided a large amount of information.

I think Lacey did not set out to write any sort of sensationalist book. It seems to me that he manages to dispel the one big rumor, the 300 million dollar hidden fortune. It would not only have been hard to accumulate that sort of money doing what he did, but his son Buddy died in a charity care facility -- hard to accept that anyone with great wealth would allow this to happen. I think Lansky owned casinos, cheated on his taxes fairly significantly, and lost a lot when Castro nationalized the Cuban casinos. Maybe at one point Lansky was worth in the low tens of millions and perhaps had he managed to hold on to his Vegas ownership of various places, he could have done really well. But even then, 300 mill is hard to swallow and one wonders if anyone who was not Lansky could have come up with an accurate figure.

300 million does not sound like so much nowadays with all the internet billionaires, but in the 1960s when he would have probably been at his peak, there were few in the world with that kind of money.--Jrm2007 (talk) 09:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Many years ago (late '60s or early '70s?) Meyer Lansky was listed in the annual Forbes publication of the 400 wealthiest people in America. Perhaps his inclusion was based on the hidden fortune rumor. Even so, this factoid might make an interesting addition to the article under, say, a trivia heading if someone were inclined to search out the original source. As I recall, the Forbes bio listed his occupation as gangster or something similar and his residence as a yacht more that 3 miles off the Florida coast. --Merligrin (talk) 17:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, it was actually the very first edition of the Forbes 400, published in September of 1982, in which Meyer Lansky was listed as one of the wealthiest people in America. His net worth was estimated at $100 million. Forbes claims that net worth amounts in their annual list are backed by accurate research lending credence to the assertion that Mr. Lansky was indeed quite wealthy in his heyday. Merligrin (talk) 18:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

300 million was and is fiction, culprit: Hank Messick who introduced this fairy tale. Lansky didn't own Vegas casino's he owned "points" and earned finders fees.(Russo-Supermob) Indeed he lost a lot of money in Havana, and eventually lost a lot of other casino's on the mainland after he was investigated by authorities. In Vegas he was just a powerful name, a shareholder and in general a very good accountant with powerful mob connections. The definitive biography still must be written on his specific power and wealth. Lacey did a good job but couldn't answer all the things. Read also the link in this page "meyer lansky memorial museum" I had contact with Lansky´s granddaughter Cynthia Duncan who created the museum website and she told me about the false rumours of the 300 mill which lead to a lot of troubles for the family for years. In his will and testament Lansky officially left 57.000 dollars and his widow Teddy received another 125.000 from Vincent Alo a few months later. (read Cohen article inside the museum website!!!) ReaderP, dutchwiki —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaderP (talk • contribs) 22:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

"Nothing for nothing" quote ?

Was Lansky the one who made that quote, "Nothing for nothing" when asked a favor by somebody outside his circle? A sort of indication he was willing to do business, but not as a favor - giving nothing gets you nothing? Thanx to anyone w/ info on this...Engr105th (talk) 01:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Parents' language

What evidence is there that Meyer Lansky's parents were Polish speaking Jews? The vast majority of Jews from Grodno (Hrodna) Belarus were Yiddish speakers. Much of the confusion about Lansky's nationality seems to originate from the fact that Jews of the Russian Empire and Eastern Europe were considered a nationality or ethnicity in their own right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.1.207.30 (talk) 20:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

No source to year or place of emigration

In 1911 the family emigrated to the United States and settled on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, New York.

It didn't say where he had emigrated to nor what year it was in any of the sources. I'm not denying it might be true. But without source, it's as good as making something up. TomNyj0127 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC).

As it stands now (9/11/09) the "Immigration and childhood" section of the article does not say anything about when Lansky immigrated. I understand why the factiod was pulled w/o citation, but either the info needs to go in or the section label needs to be changed. -- Hexagonal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.188.193 (talk) 11:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Ship manifest records show that he arrived in New York City on April 4, 1911 aboard the S.S. Kursk in the company of his mother and younger brother. They were coming to join his father, who had already entered the country, at 3-5 Lewis St in New York City's Lower East Side. I edit Wikipedia rarely, and even more rarely to add information, so I may not be completely up on guidelines for sourcing, but would I be correct in assuming that this would count as original research (regardless of how simple it was to find) regardless of the accuracy of the information? If anyone would like to use this as a source, I can provide the citation information. AndyMcKay (talk) 14:37, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Edit

This line:

Meyer Lansky is also mentioned in Raekwon's "Glaciers of Ice" from the album "Only Built 4 Cuban Linx".

Means nothing to the article. I am deleting it. If someone can re insert it with some sort of reason or meaning for being mentioned, put it back in. I also put headers on this page to clear the separate topics.

L.A.F.

Ethnicity?

Guys.... It says that lansky was a russian jew but I've read in crime books that his parents were polish... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.26.24.218 (talk • contribs)

During the time Lansky's family would have been there Poland was occupied by Russia, ethnically they were Polish, but legally they would be Russian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.197 (talk • contribs)

Cuban casinos

In the article it says that Meyer joined Lucky in cuba and that Luciano founded cuba before lansky. It also says that by 1936 he had gambling operations in Miami, New Orleans, and Cuba. Luciano was in jail in 1936. Luciano didn't go or have any buisness in cuba for years after 1936. And Lansky definitely discovered cuba and luciano had nothing to do with it some one needs to research this and change this error in the article

Untitled

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.189.139 (talk • contribs) 23:14, 3 September 2011

He was born in Grodno (a Polish city) in 1902 and lived there until 1911, when it was part of the Russian Empire. His passport and nationality would therefore have been Russian. He was either "Russian-born" or "Polish-born", depending on your views on these things. Do you have any reliable sources for any of your claims? Jayjg ^(talk) 20:57, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Dear Jayjig,

Two points. 1) Meyer Lansky was not an ethnic Pole. Your attempts to portray him as such are dishonest and go against the spirit of Wikipedia. If he was an ethnic Pole, spoke Polish as his native language, or was a member of the Polish mafia I would have no problem with your posts. The problem is that he was an ethnic Ashkenazi Jew who spoke Yiddish, was part of the Jewish mafia and an associate of the Italian mafia. Please stop trying to render his name as Majer Suchowlinski unless you have a valid source that gives his name as such. I have found multiple sources (sourced in the article) that say that his name was Meyer Suchowljansky. 2) He was not a "Polish born" mobster. He was born in the Russian Empire and emigrated to the United States before the founding of the inter-war Polish republic. Later Grodno passed to Poland, and then the Soviet Union, and then Belarus.

I do not mean to start an editing war with you, but he was an ethnic Jew. The Poles and Jews of Grodno (in case your didn't know) did not get along very well. In fact, they despised one another. The Jews of Grodno tended to speak Yiddish and perhaps Russian or Polish as a second language. I know because my family are Jews from the same region. I find your attempts to portray Meyer Lansky as Polish as insulting. If you find a single scholarly source that says that Meyer Lansky was an ethnic Pole or had any attachment to Poland, I'll cede the point to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.189.139 (talk) 05:39, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I haven't "attempted to portray him as an ethnic Pole", and the article never indicated any such thing. On the contrary, it's always been clear that Lansky was Jewish. Regarding the rest, if you want to insert something, you need to find a reliable source, and cite it properly. A citation simply consisting of the name of a book is not appropriate - Wikipedia needs at a minimum the name of the author, the year of publication, and the page number. Regarding your insistence that the first sentence refer to him as "Jewish", despite the fact that the article elsewhere makes it abundantly clear that he's Jewish, you also need to review WP:OPENPARA, item 3.2. Edits that don't conform to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines will not remain in the article. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:15, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Found this debate by an accident and I think I might throw in something. "Suchowljansky" is a cyrylic transcription of "Suchowliński" since Polish names under Russian Empire rule were transcribed from latin alphabet to cyrylic. Names ending with "-sky" are common between Jews and they are effect of part of Poland (and it's large Jewisn population) being under Russian rule for some time. They are basically ethnic Polish names transcribed to cyrilic alphabet and then transcribed back from cyrylic to latin alphabet when their holders moved away from countries that use cyrylic which results in some losses of "original" lettering, most notable replacing "ski" with "sky". Meyer Lansky probably should be described as Polish-born Jew.

Relationship with Howard Hughes, Louis Lesser, and Teamsters attorney in Las Vegas hotel and casino development

Does anyone have secondary sources on Mr. Lansky's relationship with Howard Hughes, Louis Lesser, Kirk Kerkorian, and Jimmy Hoffa's Teamster attorney, Morris Shenker, "the money mover", in late 60's and early 70's Las Vegas hotel and casino development and ownership, and re development and ownership of Santa Anita racetrack near LA? Primary sources clearly show the relationship, and inferences supporting what is in the primary sources can be made from secondary news sources, but the primary sources cannot be used as references at Wikipedia, and using secondary sources to make inferences would violate WP:OR, so without secondary sources, none of this can go into the article. 64.134.225.127 (talk) 13:12, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Why is there no table of contents for this talk page?

Why is there no table of contents for this talk page? 64.134.225.127 (talk) 13:18, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

(two years later) There seems to be one now. --do ncr am 01:36, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

"I Pity the Poor Immigrant" item "in literature" removed

An incomplete 2014 item was added to the "In Literature" section in this 2014 edit, which was the sole edit of a new Wikipedian. The item did not explain Lansky's role. I remove it to here:

* In the 2014 historical novel, "I Pity the Poor Immigrant," by Zachary Lazar, Published by Little, Brown and Company.

Hopefully it could be restored with more info. --do ncr am 01:36, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

"Havana Nocturne: How the Mob Owned Cuba" item

I also removed the unexplained

In the book, "Havana Nocturne: How the Mob Owned Cuba and Then Lost It to the Revolution," by T. J. English, Published by William Morrow, 2007.

Hopefully someone with access to the book could provide a more complete characterization. --do ncr am 01:50, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

"Havana Nocturne" definitely should not have been under the "literature" heading in the first place, as it's non-fiction. Thanks for cleaning it up. —Crimsonrain158 (talk) 17:18, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Bought a Swiss Bank?

This is not mentioned in Lacey's book and it seems unlikely that a foreign national could do this.--Jrm2007 (talk) 19:56, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

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Post-Revolution, "Miami Cubans", Bay of Pigs, JFK section

This section neeeds a real serious edit because it reads like it was written by a JFK assassination conspiracy nut. There's no citations and the biggest tell is that it lists Clay Shaw as the only person "convicted" by Jim Garrison in the JFK assassination. This of course is false because Claw Shaw was the only person prosecuted NOT convicted. In fact, he was acquitted. Other little trivia like how many people believe there was a conspiracy are unsourced as well as irrelevant to an article on Myer Lansky. Whoever wrote this has an obvious agenda.John Simpson54 (talk) 14:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC)