Talk:Metropolitan Throne of Malankara See

Claims without corroboration

Though it is true that such a chair exists, the claims that the primates of Malankara starting from Marthoma I were enthroned using this particular chair are uncorroborated. There is no evidence that this chair is the one used in 1653 AD or in the consecrations of subsequent primates of Malankara. In spite of the article being up over a decade, the author(s) have failed to provide even a single reference of contemporary records that verify their claims. As such, they remain claims, not historical facts. I will edit the article to mention that these are only claims without any historical evidence. Unless valid references are added in the near future, I suggest that this article be marked for deletion. --Swordofcherubim (talk) 05:46, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Hearsay, not facts

This article contains only alleged beliefs and hearsay without any contemporary records to back them up. While the events of episcopal consecration are undisputed, the claims that a specific chair was used without even a single reliable source or contemporary document to back up the claim simply falls short of an article worthy of taking up space in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.139.74 (talk) 20:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Untitled

St. Thomas did not annoint any bishops during his stay in India, hence the whole concept of the holy apostolic throne of St. Thomas is false.

Two points:

(1) It is almost impossible to prove a negative, like "he did not anoint any bishops." A more accurate statement would be "he did not anoint any bishops that we have evidence about

(2) The name does not necessarily refer to his line of apostolic descent, but could simply be an honorary one, as Thomas probably was one of, if not the, first bishop in that part of India. John Carter 17:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

There are no proffs existing for an Apostolic Throne of St Thomas in Kerala.

Points:

[1] No evidences, not even in traditions or any of the early century writings.

[2] St Thomas Christians always recived Bishops from Eastern Syria including few nestorians.

[3] This article has no relevance and it should be removed as its just part of the local politics of the n number of factions of St Thomas Christians.

Kevin 17:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Throne and Churches

Does All these church leaders Claim to be on the Throne of St. Thomas? 05:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Your view is wrong

Indian Church cannot claim this throne with out the Catholicate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.11.46.234 (talk) 09:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is not correct

You have not read about the history of Catholicos of East. And, it is a fact that Apostle Thomas didnot ordain a bishop in India. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kulangattil (talk • contribs) 02:27, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

POV

There are no reference on this article.A number of church names has been used in this article, which they dont claim Pamparam (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Articles on Common History

There are Six articles which claim common history of Saint Thomas Christians out of this 4 have almost similar contents about the same period. To avoid repetitive articles and to improve the quality of the article, share about WP:RELY sources and re organization of these articles.

The title should be changed

The correct word should be "Holy See of St.Thomas" which is the word used in the case of other Apostles. Only the church which is headed by a Patriarch/Catholicos of the lineage of St.Thomas can claim this. As being very evident, Indian Orthodox Church can do it because it has the succession of the Catholicii of the See founded by St.Thomas in Persia. Like other Holy Sees around the world, this also was shifted to various cities in centuries due to political reasons and is finally established in India from 1912. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abrahamoommenk (talk • contribs) 10:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indian Christianity#About the articles on Saint Thomas Christians common history Pamparam (talk) 02:46, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Oommen, There seems to be some confusion with the word “The Throne of Saint Thomas”. I doubt whether Holy See and Throne are the same.

None of the disciples of Jesus including Thomas, established a throne. The throne of Saint Thomas is the throne on which the Metropolitans of Saint Thomas Christians, from Marthoma I (1653) to Marthoma XXI (2007) were seated at the time of their enthronement. This throne is at present with the Mar Thoma Church.

I have no idea who created the "Holy See of St.Thomas" and Catholicii of the See founded by St.Thomas in Persia. I can’t trace this in any records of St. Thomas Christian tradition in Kerala before 1912. If you know of any such books or document, kindly give the title, year of publication (first edition) so that others also can verify it.

Mar Thoma Church does not belong to any See. If you want to put other Churches under "Holy See of St.Thomas", You may do so. For courtesy sake, please refer the churches concerned, before going round giving a See or a Throne to those churches. Definitely Mar Thoma Church does not belong to any Catholicii or to any Patriarch or to any Holy See.

So it is requested to leave Mar Thoma Church, under the Throne of Saint Thomas.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 17:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Just like marthoma Church no church except Malankara Orthodox Church claims the see of St. Thomas(They did not do that till later days). So why are those churches added here. -ܠܝܓܘ Liju ലിജു לג"ו (talk) 11:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

From June 30, 1876 till July 1, 1909 Malankara Orthodox Church was under the Patriarch of Antioch who was neither an Indian and nor a Saint Thomas Christian. It was the Patriarch who consecrated and appointed the six bishops to that church, without even consulting the bishop Pulikottil Mar Dionaysius who took the leadership in inviting the Patriarch to the land of Saint Thomas Christians meeting all his expenses. That is why the sentence: “During the course of time some of them joined the Patrarch of Antioch (1876)” was added there. I don’t think you want to hide this historical fact. Also try to find why the church was again divided into two, on September 12 (?), 1912 and began to use “Orthodox” with the name of these churches. For more details please refer Malankara Orthodox Church history books or to their Church authorities.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 18:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Resolving the dispute

Members of Churches whose prelates were not enthroned on the Throne of St. Thomas have entered the names of their Churches also in this article. Thus a dispute is created So please remove them to resolve this unnecessary dispute.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Content changes

This article is about the Throne of St. Thomas. It is believed that St. Thomas established the Church in India and so the throne is in India. The right to use this throne is for Malankara St. Thomas Christians. Necessary changes to this article have been made and hope this will resolve the dispute. I have no idea of any other Church founded by St. Thomas that still exists and so have a Throne of St. Thomas. Members of other Churches whose prelates are not enthroned on the Throne of St. Thomas, please do not include your stories into this article and create unnecessary dispute.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:42, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Can someone who knows what a throne is make the edits.... SOme people believe that throne is some man made chair .... 59.164.231.149 (talk) 14:10, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

The "Throne of Saint Thomas" denotes the Apostolic See of the Apostle Thomas, disciple of Christ and his successors. It is used interchangeably with "See of Thomas". The person who created this article seems to be under the impression that the "Throne of St. Thomas" is a wooden chair...hehe... Actually its a honorary position and not an object.

The prelates of the two Oriental Orthodox Churches in India (Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and the Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church), the two eastern catholic rites in kerala(Syro-Malabar Catholic Church, Syro-Malankara Catholic Church) also claim to be successors of St. Thomas.

This particular article seems to be created with the sole intention of portraying the prelate of Protestant Marthoma Syrian Church, which was formed in 1887 as the sole successor of St. Thomas in India. The bishops in the chart starting from Mar Thoma XV are Protestants and belonging to the Marthoma Anglican Church. While the ones in the chart preceding him are all Oriental Orthodox. Is there any authentic references provided to justify the order of bishops in that chart? (apart from protestant websites)

TK2011 (talk) 17:26, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Edits by 59.164.231.149

Reverted the edits by 59.164.231.149 The tone does not seem to be suitable for a Wikipedia article. The definition given does not agree with what is given in the dictionary, wikipedia articles and the Bible. So before making anymore changes please read:

• Definition given in the Free online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopdia - A Throne - A chair occupied by an exalted personage, such as a sovereign or bishop, on state or ceremonial occasions, often situated on a dais and sometimes having a canopy and ornate decoration
• Read the Wikipedia article, Throne - sections Ecclesiastical thrones and List of names thrones.
• In the New Internatioanl Version of the Bible the word throne is used 175 times.
• Please note that none of the Malankara Churches are Protestant Churches. For more information, please read historical documents like, Missionary Registers (in English) from 1816, Niranam Granthavari (Record of History written during 1770-1830 in Malayalam).

So all corrections and deletions by 59.164.231.149 has been reverted. Please use talk page before editing.Neduvelilmathew (talk) 16:02, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Mathew, "Throne" in Christianity is the Ecclesiastical Throne denoting a particular authority and not a piece of furniture, as you've made it seem in this article. See the wiki article on Ecclesiastical Thrones, quoting: From ancient times, bishops of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and other churches where episcopal offices exist, have been formally seated on a throne, called a cathedra (Greek: κάθεδρα, seat). Traditionally located in the sanctuary, the cathedra symbolizes the bishop's authority to teach the faith (hence the expression "ex cathedra") and to govern his flock. "Ex cathedra" refers to the explicative authority, notably the extremely rarely used procedure required for a papal declaration to be 'infallible' under Roman Catholic Canon law.

Actually the Marthoma Syrian Church is a Protestant Church. It was formed in 1887 of converts from the Oriental Orthodox Church in India, due to the infiltration of British(Anglican) missionaries into their Seminary in the Colonial age. It teaches praying to saints, praying for the departed, veneration of icons, etc are wrong, and subscribes to Sola Scripture, rejecting Christian Tradition. You have replaced the Oriental Orthodox bishops after Mar Thoma XIII and replaced them with Anglican bishops of the Marthoma Church.Wikipedia is not the place for this.

TK2011 (talk) 17:42, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Reverted article to version before long sermon put into lead

I came across this article and saw a jaw-dropping sermon inserted into the lead, which I have removed by restoring the article to its state before it was put in.Smeat75 (talk) 19:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Copyright violations removed

Much of the text that was recently added came from this diocesan website. That which was not, violated Wikipedia's policy on neutrality. This article was pretty ugly even without those edits, and I have found it necessary to cut down a few of the more egregious neutrality problems. Please work on this article with a view to Wikipedia policies and not advancing one particular cause. Elizium23 (talk) 20:17, 23 February 2016 (UTC)