Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 3

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amazed

wow, i'm amazed at the carelessness with which this article was written! to say there are no legitimate jewish groups that consdier messianic judaism to be a legitimate expressionof judaism is careless and irresponsible. there have been several books written by the most respected reform scholars that legitimize messianic judaism. also, the article admits the messianic jews don't consider themselves to be anything other than jewish - yet asserts they are christians. the article does this very flippantly without explaining WHY they're christians. as others have pointed out in this discussion, orthodox jewish groups like chabad and bressler khassidim claim messiah has already come and even atribute divine identities to their messianic leaders. do we ignore the fact that they consider themselves orthodox and start flippantly calling them christians? of all the articles i've seen on this (usually very helpful) web site - it one is by far the poorest.

Can you name the "several books written by the most respected reform scholars that legitimize messianic judaism"? Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to look up who you are, anonymous. There are a total of two authors, with one book each on the subject, both of whom conclude that MJ can be considered both Christian and Jewish. These are mentioned in the article. If you try to edit the article to say otherwise, you can look forward to quite a race to revert the edit. NathanZook 02:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

sorry for the delay in responding. i am "annonymous" only because i don't yet know how to identify myself on this site.

1. to answer the question concerning books written by highly respected reform scholars: we could start with harris-shapiro's "messianic judaism: and cohn-sherbok's book by the same name. both highly-respected scholars conclude messianic judaism is the seventh branch of judaism. if you really did unbiased research as they did, you would reach VERY different conclusions. i won't even delve into the growing number of conservative rabbis who legitimize messianic judaism.

2. your claim that the founders of the umjc are baptists, much less southern baptists, is outragous! i know these guys personally and very well. while two mid-level leaders were part of the general baptist conference 30 years ago, the umjc denomination has absolutely no history stemming from anything baptist. if i were to apply your logic universally and fairly to all jewish groups, then the orthodox come from the baptists. i personally know repsected orthodox leaders who were originally baptist pastors that converted. i have attended an orthodox shul that meets in a baptist church. let's be just a little repsonsible about our claims around here.

3. let's define what it means to be "jewish" and what it means to be "christian". if the distinction is believing messiah has come and is divine, then we must conclude chabad is a christian missionary group and the unitarian church is modern orthodox jewish. we can't be so simplistic with complex issues. concluding messianic jews are baptist christian missionaries because of one tenant in their faith ignores everything else that makes them is unique group. it is unfair to apply this overly-simplistic standard to messianics without applying it universally. what is chabad jewish and why is the unitarian church christian? the standard you use to answer that question needs to be the same standard in defining messianic judaism. please, i exhort you - be scientific, thorough and unbiased in your research. end of anonymous contributions

Silly arguments. A Christian organization created with the sole intention of converting Jews to believe in Jesus, will always be a Christian organization. This will be true no matter how much they try to pretend to be Jewish, and call themselves "rabbi". A priest is a priest. If they want to convert to Judaism, they would need to have full Jewish beliefs. The same is true for someone born Jewish. If you want to pray to Jesus, then by definition, you are following Christianity (After all, Jesus' last name is Christ).

now my comments get deleted - why?

Between 1% and 25% of members are Jewish

From my own firsthand experience, most member of these groups are not Jewish at all. They may have had a Jewish great-grandfather or grandfather, but are no more Jewish than the Pope.

This is especially true of people involved in leadership. A good background check will reveal that they are not Jewish at all, based on matrilineal descent. OpenInfo 21:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

This is even more true of second generation Messianics, or ones who have come from the church and claim to have "Jewish roots". Usually, they are born of a non-Jewish mother. OpenInfo 21:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

So your edits are based upon original research? Should I ask for arbitration & revert your edits based upon this statement? In any event, I don't know about the MJAA, but the UMJC numbers are WAY higher than that. NathanZook 02:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure? There are many people who claim to be Jewish, but as my quick check on any names mentioned on the UMJC website reveal, the alleged "rabbis" were actually ordained Priest or Ministers. Can you explain that about the UMJC?

Can you also explain, when you are touting the differences between these various organizations, that they were all started by the same group of people, and are primarily funded by Christian groups?

As far as I can see, when one group gets exposed, a new group jumps up, with basically the same leadership as the old group. OpenInfo 04:06, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Main article bias

i wish to reiterate this article is highly opinionated, subjective and inaccurate. i exhort you to do a thorough, scientific and unbiased article on messianic judaism. my comments keep getting buried at the bottom of the discussion. this web site has to maintain a high standard of accuracy and neutrality. this article either needs to be rewritten from scratch without any anti-messianic bias. perhaps reassigning the article to a truly neutral third party would result in an accurate and unbiased article. (see see my other comments buried at the bottom of the discussion for more detailed explanation.) if we apply this author's logic fairly to all religious groups, we would be forced to conclude that chabad and bresslever chassidim are christian missionaries and the unitarian church is actually modern orthodox jewish. such conclusions are patently absurd - as are the inaccurate and specious arguments in this article. (again, see my other comments buried at the bottom of the discussion) . Unsigned comments!!

removed the above unsigned comments -which by the way I largely agree with from the main article to the discussion page as normal. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)} 13:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Statements by anonymous ARE absurd. However, I stand by my previous statements that the UJMC was created by Christian and Baptist organizations. Those people are not even Jewish.

I was involved with Messianic Judaism for a number of years and my mother was Jewish...my father was not, but as I understand it, by Jewish law I am fully Jewish. I agree that there are a large number of Christians involved in Messianic congregations, but by Jewish law, are they not considered as Jewish as the next Jew if they convert? Please note, I am no longer involved with the Messianic movement, as their bias towards homosexuality drummed me out. JonMoore 20:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

That is a very good question. Yes, if someone is Christian, and they convert to Judaism, then they would be Jewish. However, in order to be considered a true convert, they would have to practice Orthodox Judaism. OpenInfo 22:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a very upsetting comment made by OpenInfo. As a committed member of the Conservative Movement, I will object by saying that Conservative Conversions carried out in compliance with Jewish Law are just as valid as those carried out by the Orthodox establishment itself or its members. That being stated, I feel that this article gives an unprecidented amount of legitimacy to a flavour of cults. yonkeltron 01:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

- I find it totally amazing that you can in the same paragraph complain that messianic judaism is being given too much legitamcy and call them cults but be outraged that the conversions of your cult that the conversions of your cult are not being recognized.

- Up till now I've been silent about my own vewpoints but this hypocracy I cannot endure. Judaism is not a plurality of any viewpoint about that Rejects Jesus, Judaism is the following of Halacha. Yes you are a jew because halacha says you are a jew but that doesn't make your conservative "judaism" legitamite according to Halacha. That being said you are fully entitiled to your beliefs, as are the messianic jews, and i will strive to see that your opinion is represented accuratly, as i have strived to see that the messianic opinion is represented accuratly. but i will not be told, I have to accept that the goyinm you "convert" are jews. 85.65.219.226 05:41, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

It is improper to assert that Conservative conversions are not-kosher in an open forum such as Wikipedia. Furthermore, it is improper even to suggest that the Conservative Movement is a cult. While it is niether my place nor my priviledge to refute your mean-spirited and hurtful comments, I will kindly ask that you refrain from making any more of them. The task at hand is the content of the article. Thank you for helping to make sure that while the opinions of everyone are preserved, it is made clear that any form of Hebrew Christianity is not a part of Judaism because it does not, as you have been so correct to point out, follow Halakha. "Disagreements in courts of law constitute the desolation of the world." -Derekh Eretz Zuta, 9. yonkeltron 07:27, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

PROOF OF NON-JEWISH ROOTS in various Messianic organizations

This was put into the discussion page on January 20. Someone deleted it, however. Just because there is evidence you don't like, please don't delete it. Thank you.

This proves that UMJC was founded by non-Jews

I took a quick look at the UMJC website. There I found a video, introducting UMJC, and what it was all about. Well, they were claiming a history involving Jews deciding to become "Messianic". They showed a couple of people talking, most of whom looked completely unJewish. I picked one person, at random, because I could clearly see that he had no connection to Judaism whatsoever, yet he was calling himself a "rabbi". His face, his words, his mannerisms, and many other cues led me to think he was some kind of Christian Evangelist. Yet, here he was, saying he was Jewish.

That person's name was Richard Nichol. A quick check found that, in fact, I was 100% right. This man was an ordained Christian Minister, complete with degree.

reference [1]

"Richard C. Nichol, M.A., M.Div., D.Min., Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary, serves as the Messianic Rabbi of Congregation Ruach Israel in Needham MA., and is past President of the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations and Vice President of the International Messianic Jewish Alliance (IMJA).

Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary is an educational institution serving the Lord and His Church. Its mission is to prepare men and women for ministry at home and abroad. The Seminary undertakes this task as a training partner with the Church so that what is learned on campus may be complemented by the spiritual nurture and the exercise of ministry available through the Church." 207.112.93.72 03:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Then, I decided to check out the next President of the UMJC, Dan Juster. He had a beard, but didn't look Jewish at all. Surprise! Guess what I found?

reference [2]

Dan Juster is the Executive Director of Tikkun Ministries. Unfortunately, few people realize that Dan Juster was an ordained Presbyterian minister! He has been active in various Christian churches and colleges since he was an adolescent, and was later ordained by the Presbyterian denomination of Christianity.

OpenInfo 03:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

A couple of problems with all this. First the people you are checking on may have been Jewish by race rather than Jewish by religion. Secondly have you checked that these people were not Jewish before the became Christian minister. They might (for example) have been practicing Jews. Then at some point decided that Jesus actually was the promised Messiah, and that becoming a Christian would be the best expression of that belief, and become a church leader. Then they may have found that regular Christianity denied too much of their Jewish heritage and started a Messianic Jewish oganisation. Of course I only speculate.

Incidentally, basing you jedgements on 'he didn't look Jewish' is really not going to win you any friends. DJ Clayworth 17:38, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I didn't base my judgement on "he didn't look Jewish". I merely checked out his background based on a hunch, which turned out to be 100% correct.

I highly doubt the people I have listed were born Jewish. If you check the reference links that I have provided, you will clearly see that these people have links to Christianity for generations, one of them even has a Minister for a father.

The links I gave also clearly show that Christian ministries have special schools where they teach Ministers how to convert Jews, using methods that include pretending to be Jewish.

Sorry if you don't like this evidence, but that is the truth, and it needs to be told. That is why REAL Jews are upset about this movement. OpenInfo 17:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

It also doesn't help that both the references you cite are in fact attack sites, devoted to discrediting the organisations you are talking about. They are also falling into the No true Scotsman fallacy; i.e. "this person claims he is a Jew, but he went to such-and-such college and no true Jew would go to that college, so he can't be a Jew". DJ Clayworth 17:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

That is the silliest argument I have ever heard. If someone is born to a long line of Christians, then they are not Jewish. That's like calling a banana a fork. No matter how hard you try, and how many books you write, a banana will never turn into a fork. Even if you send it to college.

We are talking here about the founders of the modern movement, and the evidence is quite clear that this was not founded by Jews. Nobody is arguing that some unfortunate Jews were tricked into joining.

They are not attack sites, but rather evidence sites. Read the following paragraph, which quotes a Presbyterian publication, regarding the founding of the Messian Jewish movement in the 1970's

:But we read more about Daniel Juster's education and his evangelization of the Jews in Theology Matters, a Presbyterian publication. In an article on the Presbyterian attempts to convert Jews and the founding of Presbyterian "Messianic" congregations, the author, Jonathan Kaplan, writes:

"Interestingly, two of these Presbyterian congregations served as incubators for the development of Messianic Judaism in the early 1970s. Dr. Daniel Juster, a graduate of McCormick Theological Seminary and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, served as pastor of First Hebrew Christian Church of Chicago in the early 1970s."

Explanation of Alert Tag

It has come to my attention that this article is:

1. Seriously biased toward views espoused by Outreach Judaism (a self-defined anti-Messianic group).

2. Dominated and controlled by and Orthodox Jew who often promotes an anti-Messianic agenda.

3. Highly inaccurate.

4. Often contradicts itself as it presents misinformation.

As a public relations worker for the Israeli knesset, I can assure you that "mainstream" Judaism in Israel is mostly secular and humanist. This Orthodox administrator pretends he represents "mainstream" Judaism when he is, in fact, part of a 20% minority. True mainstream Judaism is pluralistic and and, according to the Dahaf Report, 78% of Israelis view Messianic Judaism as a legitimate expression of Judaism.

Among Orthodox Jews, I can assure you that most here in Jerusalem do not share this administrator's anti-Messianic zealousness. Furthermore, over 90% of Knesset members have no objection whatsoever to Messianic Jews - including the Datim (Religious). We Israelis - especially in the Knesset - are growing impatient with a very small percentage of datim who marginalize Messianic Jews and arrogantly claim all the rest of us support their views and behavior. Let it be known, the radical views expressed and dominated in this article do NOT represent the views of most Jews, Israelis and certainly most in the Knesset.KnessetP.R.Guy 17:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

We are not talking about Israel here at all. Yes, it is true that many Israelis consider themselves Humanists, and do not follow the Jewish RELIGION at all. We are not talking about the Jewish ethnicity here. We are talking about RELIGION.

You claim to work for the Knesset, however don't provide any evidence of that.

All I can say, is that you seem to be highly against Judaism in general. Outreach Judaism cannot quite be defined as anti-Messianic, they are simply "PRO-JUDAISM" as far as I can tell. Many Jews are vulnerable to missionaries so long as they don't have a good understanding of what it means to be Jewish. OJ is just one of many groups that works to prevent people from being victimized and from getting deceived. OpenInfo 18:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The Dahaf report does not claim that 78% of Jews view Messianicism as a legitimate form of Judaism. What it does report, however, it that 78% of those surveyed would agree to allow a person born to a Jewish mother ENTRY into Israel, despite the fact that the person has been BAPTIZED and believes in JESUS CHRIST.

It definitely does not legitimize a religion that requires BAPTISM as a form of Jewish worship. OpenInfo 18:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Israeli is not synonymous with Judaism. Humanism, as well, is not quite a recognized branch of Judaism itself, but rather sits on the margins.OpenInfo 19:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

This page is really interesting!!! I had never heard of any of this... Are all these movements based in the US?? This is why Americans use the phrase, "judeo-christian civilisation" so much...--Burgas00 19:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe Judeo-Christian values simply refer to the fact that both religions follow the same general moral principles, as well as believe in the divinity of the Torah (five books of Moses). I don't think the term has any relation to Messianicism. OpenInfo 19:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Openinfo, please listen to my explanation that differs from your assumptions. 1. If you research my IP address, you will trace it to the ISP server commonly used by Knesset members and workers. 2. Israel is the one and only JEWISH state in the world. As you pointed out, the Dahaf Report deals with entry - ALIYAH ENTRY. As you should know, this entry privilage is only for Jews and their families. 3. If Israelis were willing to allow BAPTIZED Jews (a Christians term), wouldn't we be all the more willing to accept any Jew who went through a MIKVEH (term used by Messianics)? 4. If you had any education about the Israeli government, you would know I could not function in any capacity with the Knesset if I were against any form of Judaism as you speciously claim. You simply have trouble accept mainstream Judaism's pluralistic views. KnessetP.R.Guy 19:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no trouble accepting that someone who is born a Jew will always remain a Jew (except in certain extreme cases). However, "mainstream", and "pluralism" aside, I think there should be a clear line here. Judaism, as I see it, is a religion, whose rules, by definition, are decided by the religion itself.

Ethnic Judaism is something entirely different, and that is what you are referring to. I have witnessed Messianicism firsthand, and it is nothing more than a thinly (and sometimes thickly) veiled disguise to deliver Christianity to Jews.

There is entirely no difference between a BAPTIZED JEW and a MESSIANIC JEW. It is exactly the same thing, and should be treated equally. Ethnically they ARE Jewish, however do not follow the Jewish RELIGION. That is all.

And if you are from the Knesset, then do this during working hours from your work computer. It is almost midnight in Israel. OpenInfo 20:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

What are you disputing here?? The article says that Mesianic Jews are not practicing the Jewish Religion, according to Mainstream Jewish Denominations. That is all. I don't think you have shown that fact to be in dispute. Any other objections to the article itself???

3RR violations in this article and talk page

There has been numerous 3rr violations in the editing of this talk page and this article, any edits in the future that continue this edit war will lead to blocking under the 3rr rule. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 20:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of Alert Tag Part 2

I attempted to finish my comments PinchasC unfairly blocked me and prevented me from expressing a realistic view of the subject. He freely allows OpenInfo to vandalize my comments. Hopefully these two users will allow my 10 years research and expertise on Messianic Judaism a little space below.

1. Let's start with the opening paragraph. Denominations of any religion officially registered and recognized by the US and Israeli governments cannot be called "loosely connected". Wording such as "claiming connection with Judaism" is highly derrogitory. Such language only serves to make this article read like propoganda for Tovia Singer. This article spends no time interacting with "Defining Messianic Judaism" - the official publication of the UMJC. That is the final authority on how Messianic Jews define themselves and why. 2. Even the most basic understanding of and interaction with: a. the Apostles' Creed; b. Maimonides' 13 Principles of the Jewish Faith and; c. Mainstream Messianic Judaism, would reveal Messianic Judaism is most definately an expression of Judaism and certainly not an expression of Christianity. Not once does the article address this comparison yet uses inflammitory language to cast doubt upon the legitimacy of Messianic Judaism. The language of the article needs an overhaul to be neutral. 3. The article inaccurately claims the Messianic Jewish movement "began" in the 1800's. We know from every first century source the Messianic Jewish movement existed 2,000 years ago and predates Christianity by over 300 years. We see Messianic Judaism throughout the last 2,000 years. Sometimes and in some places they existed in smaller numbers and other times and places they existed in larger numbers. Connecting Messianic Judaism to the Chruch of England in the 1800's is not only factually incorrect, it is academically irresponsible. 4. Further down the article, the author spends a lot of energy asserting Messianic Jews are evangelical Christians in disguise with no facts to back up such claims. He uses more derrogitory language such as "the self-described Messianic Jewish movement." Again, he does not interact with "Defining Messianic Judaism" - the official "self-definition" of the Messianic Jews; nor is this publication anywhere in his bibliography. How could he pretend to know how and why Messianic Jews define themselves when he hasn't bothered to read their official position? 5. Later he makes a sweeping statement, "Messianic Judaism is not seen as a legitimate form of Judaism by any recognized Jewish organization or leaders whatsoever" then contradicts himself, "Some individuals, especially Humanist [and Reform] Jews hold that messianic Judaism should be considered a viable approach to Judaism." First he says absolutely no recognized Jewish organization recognizes Messianic Judaism, then admits organizations that happen to represent the majority of the Jewish community recognize Messianic Judaism. In fact, the Israeli government recognizes Messianic Judaism as legitimate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Israeli government a recognized Jewish organization consisting of recognized Jewish leaders? 6. He makes sweeping generalizations about "evangelism" and "evangelistic tools" without any facts to back up his statements. 7. He contradicts himself on who Messianic Jews "really are." In one place he wrongfully asserts they're from the Church of England, in another place he wrongfully claims they're Baptists then in another place he wrongfully claims they're Pentacoustal. He finally generalizes they're a Protestant evangelism tool. It is painfully obvious this writer has no idea who these Christian groups are in how they differ from each other. 8. He makes strange comparisions saying Messianic Jews don't use terms like "Reverend" or "Priest". Okay . . . neither do they use terms like "Comrade", "Cleric" or "Dali Lama". What could such ridiculous statements do other than to insult the integrity of Messianic Judaism. If this article is supposed to insult Messianic Jews, then it doesn't belong in an unbiased and neutral enclyopedia. 9. He wrongfully describes debates in Messianic Judaism concerning halacha for Gentiles. While Messianic Jews are working out some issues related to Gentiles, the examples the author gives are laughable. I've spent 10 years travelling around the world and interacting with the widest variety of Messianic Judaism. I know beyond any doubt this author has no idea what issues are really debated between Messianic Jews - especially concerning Gentiles. 10. Finally, I'd like to know why "See also" links include "Anti-Semitism" and the like. It seems to imply Messianic Judaism is an anti-semeitic group of Jews. Perhaps I am mistaken, but my misunderstanding here is legitimately based upon reading an entire article by somebody who obvioulsy wants to do everything possible to discredit Messianic Judaism and is capable of stooping so low as to equate them with anti-semitism and the like. KnessetP.R.Guy 19:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC) p.s. in anticipation of your friviouls attack against my integrity, OpenInfo; 1. I am writing this Motze Shabbat in Jerusalem and not during Shabbat (whether or not the time stamp shows something different); 2. Believe it or not, Israel is highly techologically advanced and most Knesset workers can and do have high speed connections in our homes. Radical though it may be for OpenInfo to accept, I probably have a much higher speed internet connection in my home than you have at your office; 3. Governing any country is NOT a 9-5 job (except maybe in Texas). The Knesset is open 24 hours a day for workers (though not the public). It is VERY common to be called to the office in the middle of the night, on Shabbat and Yamim Tovim. 5. I'll let you guess whether I'm writing from my home or office - my IP address is the same in both places.

END OF UNSIGNED COMMENTS

It's nice to see someone following the Wikipedia rules, i.e. adding comments at the bottom, not deleting other person's comments, etc.

It's great to see how technologically advanced you are, and I'm sure you have a high speed internet connection at home. Not that I see what that has to do with the subject matter. Typical for Canada, my home connection is 7 megabits, which is about the same as the high speed in Israel. Our office connection is many times faster than than.

Anyways, my final word on this subject, is that if you are quoting the UJMC as the "authority" on Messianicism, then you should read my postings regarding the founders of that group. UJMC was founded entirely by Christian movements, therefore there is no way that it can be construed as a Jewish group.

There is no doubt that Jews are coerced into joining the UJMC, thinking that it is a Jewish movement. However, the UJMC, is just another Christian organization masquerading as Jewish.

OpenInfo 23:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It's UMJC not UJMC KnessetP.R.Guy 06:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Israeli Government in bed with Evangelical Christianity

The Israeli Government's official position on Evangelical Christianity does not exactly allow it to have a neutral P.O.V. on this issue. As we all are too well aware, the Messianic movement is almost entirely funded by Evangelical groups.

As this article from Christianity Today will prove [3], Israel needs strong ties with powerful Christian organizations in order to influence American Foreign Policy, and get the big bucks in U.S. funding (as well as the tourism $$).

Therefore, it will bow down to pressures from Messianic groups, who have a very powerful lobby. OpenInfo 01:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

1. Sounds like you're describing Rabbi Yechil Eckstein's ORTHODOX ministry IFCJ. 2. Your anti-Israel biases are coming through such comments. KnessetP.R.Guy 06:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea who you're referring to, and have never heard of that person.

Also, I can't be anti-Israeli. My wife is Israeli. OpenInfo 19:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now I have done some research on Rabbi Eckstein, who has been very instrumental in forming bridges between Jews and Christian Evangelical groups. He makes it quite clear that the Jewish point of view does not support the funding of Messianic organizations who try to convert Jews using deceptive practices.

Rabbi Eckstein has also been an advisor to Ariel Sharon on these issues. Now that Ariel Sharon is incapacitated, I suppose the new leaders may be looking for other advisors.

But the Jewish point of view will not change. OpenInfo 19:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

With a comment like that, in conjunction with your earlier remark that your wife is Israeli, the question is begged..."Israeli Arab?"  :-p Tomer^talk 18:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Reversion

I've reverted a whole spate of edits. I have been approached by persons wanting me to take sides in this argument; I have decided not to. What I have decided is to "freeze" the article for a few days, hoping that a consensus version will emerge on the talk page. Apart from minor edits, I am likely to revert any changes, representing ANY point of view, to the article for he next week or so. As I said, I'm not going to take sides. I'll declare my interest: I'm an evangelical Christian who is sympathetic to Messianic Judaism. I'm telling you that so that you know where I stand. I will NOT allow that POV to pervade the article however: this is not a propaganda bulletin, fan club, or online tract resource. In keeping with Wikipedias rules, we need to QUOTE all points of view (with REFERENCES). Any controversial POVs that are not sourced will be deleted. Frankly, the theological question of whether MJ is an expression of Judaism, or of Christianity, or of something else altogether, is not for Wikipedia to settle. If you can link assertions for such viewpoints to reputable sources, fine. But as an encyclopedia, WE are not going to answer that question. Until a consensus emerges, I'm locking the article. David Cannon 12:46, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

If you're claiming to be fair, then you should also keep the alert tag that lets the reader know there's a controversy being sorted out here.KnessetP.R.Guy 12:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

There was a distinct failure on the part of KnessetP.R.Guy to adequately source any of the many changes he made. Please don't rewrite the whole article. Please don't add unsourced information. You may remove information that is not well sourced, but take the time to discuss each item on the talk page. My personal position. I met one Messianic Jew who seemed more or less sane, considered himself a Jew, but was not a proselytizer, indeed was innocent of Christian culture or tradition. I don't have a dog in the hunt, being neither Christian or Jew (although I would probably attend the local Episcopal Church if it were not for the dense pall of incense). Fred Bauder 18:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Move to change name of article

I would move that this be called Messianicism, and not have the word "Judaism" in its title.

This would remove the controversy, and eliminate the need for Jewish editors to review the article.

Otherwise, "self-definition", as KnessetP.R.Guy says should dominate the article, will always be disputed. The "definition" as quoted from UMJC leaders, was actually written by a non-Jewish (in fact Christian) Minister. However, it does not make mention of that fact, and instead claims to be a Jewish organization.

That is a false statement, and therefore if it is included in Wikipedia, it should be appropriately referenced.

OpenInfo 20:34, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I suppose Christianity would be one part of Messianicism and the Essenes and Messianic Jews another part. It's not a made up word, but is more commonly used in a political context as in "Slavonic messianicism". However Messianic Jews call themselves Messianic Jews. How they deal with Gentiles who chose to join their movement is their own business. What is the status of that "non-Jewish (in fact Christian) Minister"; is he considered a member of the movement? Is he considered a convert, or just as associate? Fred Bauder 21:12, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

That is a good question. The Christian Ministers who founded this movement, call themselves Jews, and in fact call themselves rabbis, however their only training was from Christian Bible Colleges, where they were ordained as Ministers.

It's not the case that Christians joined a "jewish" movement. In fact, it started as a purely Christian movement, designed to attract Jews to join. It is the Jews who need to convert in order to be considered full fledged members. The Christian founders were already baptized.

The very fact that one must be BAPTIZED to join, makes it Christian. OpenInfo 01:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

That is an interesting point. I wouldn't have guessed that they would have adopted baptism. But what do I know. I would think that the Christians would have to convert. confusing subject. I'd like to see some sources for all this, one way or anther. Fred Bauder 01:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

No one from a Christian Bible college is any kind of a Jew. Fred Bauder 01:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Finally, OpenInfo and I agree on something. I think it's best to change the title of this article Messianicism. Then you guys can butcher the topic til your heart's content without risking people who wish to do serious and honest research stumbling across outreach judaism's missionary propoganda. OpenInfo can freely make up facts as he goes along - like the "fact" that stuart dauermann is a gentile. of course, if gentiles cannot write jewish theology - then OpenInfo also has to reject key fathers like akiva and unkleos. after all, they were gentiles who made absolutely essential contributions to jewish theology as we know it. in his craze to discredit messianic judaism, OpenInfo has forgotten the fact that we left egypt a mixed multitude. fact - the first day of judaism included gentiles in key positions. fact - gentiles have been essential to judaism ever since. facts don't matter for missionaries like OpenInfo, however. nor do they matter for the pseudo-intellectuals around here who pretend to value form without even pretending to value substance. you guys go ahead and let OpenInfo make up facts as he goes along; but please, don't mislead innocent people into thinking you're a reliable source of information on messianic judaism. again, you have the two opposite voices AGREEING to change the name. we both agree it would save innocent people from being misled. signing off for the last time . . . KnessetP.R.Guy 18:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I am not a missionary, nor have I ever been. I am actually a software engineer. I don't make up facts. I simply present facts, providing proofs for each fact.

The person you mention, "stuart dauermann" is most likely Jewish. However, I have never made mention of him before. He is a person involved in Jews For Jesus, which everyone agrees is a Christian Organization. Stuart was not the founder of that group, it was founded by a Mr. Rosen, who is a Gentile, and ordained Baptist Minister. OpenInfo 19:25, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

KnessetP.R.Guy, at the risk of being accused of a personal attack, I must say that the Jewish education you claim seems to be lacking. Rebbe Akiva was definitely born Jewish, and was never a Gentile. He was a Ba'al Teshuva who only started to learn Torah at age 40. All of his contributions to Judaism were done as a respected Rabbi. OpenInfo 20:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

You are also misinformed about Onkeles. He converted to Judaism, and made his contributions as a Jewish Rabbi.

In conclusion, although you seem highly informed about Messianic propaganda, please don't make it seem that you're informed about Judaism. OpenInfo 20:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)