Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 13

This is an archive of past discussions about Messianic Judaism. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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"Messianic Judaism" Not a Jewish Movement, but a Christian One

In the interest of accuracy and intellectual honesty, the name of this page and project should be changed to a more accurate term than "Messianic Judaism". The current title gives readers the impression that this movement is a legitimate Jewish movement, which it is by no means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bennyp (talk • contribs) 15:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_jesus#Jewish_opposition —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bennyp (talk • contribs) 15:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

No, some people think they are legitimate, some don't. Some billions of Christians might be tempted to say Messianics are true Judaism since they accept Jesus, those millions of Jews who reject Jesus are atheists and fake Judaism. Wouldn't want that either. Have to keep it neutral. -Bikinibomb (talk) 16:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I might think that there should be a page on "Sweet Yellow Cucumbers", and I might find 100 people who all believe that bananas are in fact sweet yellow cucumbers. That doesn't mean there should be a whole project on wikipedia dedicated to propagating the idea that bananas are in fact sweet yellow cucumbers. It would be completely irrelevant and highly inappropriate for me to claim my bedroom as the 52nd state of the USA, even if my whole extended family backed me up on it.

We mustn't say that because "Some billions of Christians might be tempted to say Messianics are true Judaism since they accept Jesus, those millions of Jews who reject Jesus are atheists and fake Judaism." that it follows that we "Have to keep it neutral." That would be a poorly-formed "ad numerum" argument. Just because millions of people all arrived at the same incorrect conclusion,u doesn't mean that we should accept it.--Bennyp (talk) 07:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

You can use the Jewish objection section for sourced statements about that. I'm a Muslim but I can't change Judaism to Judaism the religion of Dajjal the antichrist or Christianity to Christianity the religion of pagans. This isn't platform for antimissionary work or an article for Jews for Judaism, it's about the religion of Messianic Judaism and what they say they are. Then as I said, there is an appropriate section for criticism. -Bikinibomb (talk) 07:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

That is a straw-man argument. I am not arguing that because certain groups feel that this religious group is incorrect, that we should change the name. I'm arguing that because the name IS incorrect, we should change it.

You have argued that we should not allow Muslims to change the name of Judaism to "Judaism the religion of Dajjal the antichrist" and the name of Christianity to "Christianity the religion of pagans". I agree completely with that reasoning, bikinibomb. In fact, it only highlights my point.. We should not allow this religious group to change the name of Judaism to Christianity. This religious group has decided decided for itself to change the name and definition of Judaism into a religion that accepts Jesus. I am not coming to change the established name of "Messianic Judaism". I am coming to correct the mistake of those who changed the established name of Judaism.--Bennyp (talk) 08:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, what do you want me to say? That's life I guess. People are accused of hijacking religions all the time, Christianity of Judaism, Islam of Christianity and Judaism. Maybe Judaism hijacked the sun disk idea from Akhenaten and turned it into Hashem. Who knows. They are what they are now, a notable group. This isn't the place to try to change their name, you have to do it somewhere else then come back here and say, "see, they changed their name" then we can report it that way. -Bikinibomb (talk) 09:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

These are slight different things. You can call a group what you like, but you are unable to force a group to refer to itself by another name. Pointless waste of energy! Any comprehensive scholarly study should give serious credence to the groups own definition (and name) then it's critics. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not a question of how the group refers to itself. This is a question of how the group is portrayed in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not geocities.--Bennyp (talk) 09:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Like I said not everyone agrees with you about that assessment. Some people think Messianic Judaism is the more valid form of Judaism, so this is the article to tell their side of it. Some don't, so there is a rebuttal section. Feel free to start another article about what you think it should be called instead. Or improve on Jews for Judaism or similar articles that get the word out that some think they are fake Jews. -Bikinibomb (talk) 09:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with the above. It is not the place of wikipedia to seek to impose outsider viewpoints over the name chosen by a group itself. "Messianic Judaism" is the most easily recognized and most frequently used name regarding this group, and that is sufficient cause to say that that term is the term that should be used. The content can go into whether there is agreement or disagreement regrding the applicability of the name, or whether some others view it as inappropriate, but that is another matter entirely. John Carter (talk) 14:40, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Repeating your incorrect logic won't help to improve the argument. Just because we could find someone to support this group's POV, doesn't make it a valid one.--Bennyp (talk) 21:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Please note the official policy of Wikipedia:Naming conventions, which explicitly states in the nutshell summary, and I quote, "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Your own argument for "intellectual honesty" is not in fact reflected in any policies of which I am aware, and very easily could be seen as being a violation of the official policy of WP:NPOV as well. It is incumbent upon you to demonstrate a very good reason why the change has to be made for both of these official policies to not be followed. John Carter (talk) 22:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

"That is a straw-man argument. I am not arguing that because certain groups feel that this religious group is incorrect, that we should change the name. I'm arguing that because the name IS incorrect, we should change it." - IS correct? That my friends, is not an NPOV statement. The definition of a religion is highly subjective to those both within and without it, and a neutral article such as "Messianic Judaism" acknowledges a popular name that is wrought with controversy. There is a rebuttal section, and the article is quite clear that the "majority" of Jewish sects do not acknowledge that "Messianic Judaism" is a form of Judaism. Such should be the presentation of a neutral article concerning the matter. What are you going to rename a group that denies they are Jews for Jesus, denies that the "Christian" label applies to them, and seriously believes they are following the truest form of biblical Judaism? Any other label than Messianic Judaism would be highly POV and unacceptable to both the traditionally Jewish, Messianic Jewish, and non-Jewish editing community contributors to this article. "Messianic Judaism" is a name that appears in more publicized sources than any other alternative, and according to Wikipedia standards, this is certainly one of many factors in favor of the name being kept. inigmatus (talk) 15:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Inigmatus. The term may present a POV that's distasteful to those affiliated with Judaism, but it is indisputably a real, notable organization that chooses that term to describe itself. To extend Bikinibomb's example, if a real, notable organization existed that called itself Christian Pagans, there would be no alternative but to use that name for the article devoted to that subject.

Further, I think it's safe to say that the Messianic Judaism article makes it abundantly clear from the outset that this movement is not recognized as part of Judaism by many or most outside authorities, including all of the Jewish movements. The only problem would be if a reader didn't get past the title of the article, which is doubtful. It's not grouped with Judaism in any other context that I've seen or that has been mentioned, so I don't see a problem. Daniel^C/_T+ 16:14, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue of the group's name is far more psychologically insidious than that. The very name of the group is bound to be repeated many times over the course of the article. Even the opponents are forced into uttering the name, thereby giving validity to it's use. Each time the name is repeated it is engrained in the reader's mind, and associations are formed, validating the comparisson of this religious group to Judaism. This is especially offensive to any neutral observer when we consider that Christianity has consistently persecuted and attempted to undermine Judaism for thousands of years. This group's incisive and effective choice of name cuts straight to the point, linking Jesus to legitimate Judaism.--Bennyp (talk) 21:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Eh. A really neutral observer says maybe Jesus is real Judaism, maybe not. Maybe Judaism is a valid religion, maybe not. Neither view is going to offend someone who is truly neutral. So in a neutral article, neither view is offensive either. They just are. No one is forcing anyone to read the article or utter anything. A lot of people don't want to call Bush the legitimate US President either. But that's how he's identified, so here we say that's what he is.

But to the point, no one is going to be renaming the article or their religion here, or if they try it will just be reverted, so this debate is pointless. Maybe you should create a webpage or work on a related article critical about it as I suggested. -Bikinibomb (talk) 22:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue of the group's name is far more psychologically insidious than that. Offense knows no neutrality. Bennyp, we can debate the merits of Messianic "Judaism" offsite if you will (feel free to email me inigmatus@gmail.com). Otherwise please understand that a crusade to change the article's name will only end in favor of the name being kept, and a waste of everyone's time. If anything, such an idea to change an established name is frivolous, just as it is to seek a change of the name of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to Church of Wannabe Christians. Peace dude. I know of a bunch of Judaism articles that need more attention than Messianic Judaism. If you want to know, check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism. inigmatus (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll just add I don't have much sympathy when Jews cry about Messianic Judaism when as a whole they haven't also booted Lubavitchers from the Judaism fold, since they similarly say God pitched a tent of flesh and lived in the Rebbe, and wait for his Second Coming as Messiah when he didn't finish the job either. Show some consistency and work to eradicate them from Judaism at the same time and you might have more support. When you just make it an I HATE JESUS campaign and not really based on any core values of Judaism, a lot of people, especially Muslims and Christians who do believe Jesus is Messiah, are just going to tell you to suck it up and deal. -Bikinibomb (talk) 22:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Just let him finish his rant. As much as it would be burning in one's heart to show the error of one's ways, let's try to keep a cool head and focus on the issues - and not frivolous ones. The MJ page hasn't had a fight in almost a year (yeah!) because those who work on the article don't cater to emotional arguments and POV pushing. Let's leave him alone and see if he has other and more fruitful ideas that actually are meritable in improving the article. inigmatus (talk) 04:06, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the discussion on this article needs a bit of perspective. To the non-Jews in this discussion, it needs to be understood that there are very strong feelings in the Jewish community about "Messianic Jews" and "Jews for Jesus." These groups specifically target Jews for their evangelical activities. Jews generally feel that evangelism, in any form, is abhorrent, so it follows that many Jews find groups that target Jews for evangelism particularly offensive. In America, we also have a real and common concern that the Christian majority will not understand the difference. Because of this, an explanation of Judaized Christianity is passed on as part of our Jewish education. Fellow Jews: understand that for people who do not share our bitter disgust for evangelism, our bile appears particularly surprising, and can be (wrongly) taken as anti-Christian sentiment. That being said, I think the idea of a name change has merit, but also that we need a lot more than "my rabbi said so" as cause for telling people that their religion's name is as much a misleading misnomer as "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." The origins and activities of this group need to be taken into account. I think the onus is on us to show that the Messianic Jewish movement began as a Christian movement with the intent of bringing Jews into the fold of Christianity, not a Jewish movement that reinterpreted its messianic principles independent of Christian doctrine. Misopogon (talk) 13:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I would remind everybody that Wikipedia is not censored so as to avoid giving offence, and if that were not the case then the images of Muhammed would have been removed long ago. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:00, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

MJAA and UMJC POV

I noticed someone went in and attempted to make MJAA and UMJC's positions on various Messianic issues as "mainstream." Although they are the more vocal Messianic organizations, they certainly do not represent the majority, nor can claim to be "mainstream" Messianic Judaism. At the very least, the claim to mainstream is in dispute, and as such it is highly recommended to remove such POV statements putting other theologies and groups on the outside, and MJAA and UMJC on the inside. This article should show a neutral presentation of Messianic beliefs, and not prop up one group or another as "mainstream." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Inigmatus (talk • contribs) 17:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

JC and MJRC are two totally separate entities. MJRC is exclusive to only MJAA. JC is inclusive of all other Messianic Judaism, but on their site ascribes to an orthodox Messianic view. The primary difference between the two sites appears to be their stance concerning Gentile believers. In short, JC seems to be developing halakhic standards for both Jew and Gentile messianics, whereas MJRC seems to be developing halakhic standards for just Jews who follow MJAA's denomination. Both sites are relevant to the article and for future investigation by readers. Please don't remove either. inigmatus (talk) 06:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Non-messianic Jews & non-Christian Jews statement

Last statement:

Some believe that non-messianic Jews can still find favor with God through the Torah without accepting Jesus, as did Moses, David, and the Prophets.

Before change:

Some believe that non-Christian Jews can still find favor with God through the Torah without accepting Jesus, as did Moses, David, and the Prophets.

I removed a statement for discussion. I wanted to point out that messianic can mean you believe in a messiah. Christians along with the modern messianic movement and conservative, orthodox, reforms Judaism, would all qualify as messianic would they not? I think in place of non-messianic Jews another statement should be made that is more accurate? I think the statement non-messianic Jews in the context of what was written meant ones that don't believe Yeshua/Jesus is messiah. I think in reality, the only real non-messianic Jews would be a rejector of any promised messiah? Knight1000 (talk) 14:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Traditional Jews who believe in a future messiah but not in Jesus are covered in Jewish Messianism. There is a template at the top of this article that links there.

I believe the statement you removed has merit and will not truly cause confusion in the context of this article, but if you can come up with another non-clumsy, NPOV phrasing for "Jews who believe in Jesus", then God bless you! Rpresser (talk) 14:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I should be coming up my phrasing, I understand your meaning, but the statement should be citable for verification. After all, information in the wiki is about verifiability, not truth-fullness. In fact, that whole area I pulled that from has a lack of citations. If someone wants to place it back, I'm fine with that but it should be with citable verification. The generic Some believe is moving close to weasel words. I'll look and see if I can find a good third party source for replacement. Knight1000 (talk) 15:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Just say "Some believe that Jews can still find favor with God through the Torah without accepting Jesus, as did Moses, David, and the Prophets." You don't need non-Christian or non-messianic since you are already saying without Jesus, it's redundant. -Bikinibomb (talk) 20:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I saw a possible edit war looming in the paragraphs below, so I backed away from editing for a bit. I think your wording makes it clearer. I think this issue is closed. Knight1000 (talk) 00:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I think there should still be a cite for it but since I know for a fact some Messianic Jews and Christians are more sympathetic to Jews who have honest concerns about Trinity being paganism and their resulting hesitance to embrace Jesus, it's not a burning issue for me. I'll look around for one though. -Bikinibomb (talk) 01:19, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

No cite? ouch, didn't catch that. I'll look too. I don't disagree with the statement as I've read/heard that too, but if you let some uncited statements in, then the preverbial door is opened for a lot of uncited statements; which is what this article now has. Knight1000 (talk) 02:12, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

True. Though this is just one of those articles that is going to be scrutinized to death due to its controversial nature, so I'm not real concerned about removing info when I know personally it is true, a citation can get there when it gets there. In comparison most of Judaism intro and much of the article is unsourced, but no one is gutting it or slapping source tags on it. So for here my attitude is like, whatever. It's just in development. -Bikinibomb (talk) 09:14, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

What happened?

Someone (who can be found in the history) removed tens and tens of citations from the lead of the article, effectively destroying the prime focus of the lead and removing the most widespread and commonly held points of view from the article. This is a gross violation of WP:NPOV. Please do not let it happen again. -- Avi (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

What happened is that duplicating info that Messianics are "fake Jews" in the intro, in Identity, and in Jewish objections, is POV-pushing and I'm moving it back down to Jewish objections where it belongs. What do you think would happen in the Judaism article if someone littered about that Christians think Jews are antichrists who don't believe in Jesus, or in the Christianity article that Jews think they are pagans all over the place? The prime focus of the lead is to explain what Messianic Judaism is, it's not a platform for antimissionary work. -Bikinibomb (talk) 19:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll leave a blurb about their claim to be authentically Jewish disputed in the intro with the bulk moved where it belongs in a criticism section, same with every other article, but editors can't be whispering "fake Jew" every time Messianics are mentioned, it's an out of control practice here on Wikipedia and needs to be leveled out by other editors who maybe aren't so personally tied with any of those religions. -Bikinibomb (talk) 19:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

To delete the information about both Jewish and Christian beliefs regarding Messianic Judaism from the lead is a gross POV violation. There were fewer sources originally, if I recall correctly, but complaints were made how that was not "mainstream". The current list of references (combined as best I could months ago into the fewest distinct groups) vitiates that claim. -- Avi (talk) 20:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Further, it isn't as much "Fake Jew" as it is a clarification that neither Jews nor Christians believe that Messianic Jews are a branch of Judaism. That information is key and core to the internal struggles that Messianic Jews themselves have (note the myriad differing levels of adherence or rejection of any portion of the Oral Law) and their relationship to BOTH Jews and Christians. To ignore this key, and most likely most critical element of their self-identification crises and issue from the lead is an injustice to them, as much as it is a POV denial of the Christian and Jewish views. -- Avi (talk) 20:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Look, first I didn't delete it, I moved it down. Second this isn't the "Views of Jews and Christians about Messianics" article it's the Messianic Jews article. Third not all Christians feel that way, neither do I as a Muslim, I know there are some fakes, and some who are real ethnic Jews who have no problem with identity. But that's all beside the point. Having 12 refs each leading to much information is only described as trying to sneak a criticism section into the intro. So either gut it and streamline it or we can go to my version. Or call in an admin to see what he/she thinks. -Bikinibomb (talk) 20:56, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I am doing what I can to minimize the number of ref notes in the top so that it does not look visually overwhelming, I agree with that. At this point, the individual numbers left are used multiple times. The actual text we are discussing is at most two sentences. -- Avi (talk) 20:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I myself can't see how the material that the MJ are "fake Jews" is really relevant to the lead at all. The article is about Messianic Judaism itself, not about how others, including Jews and Christians, perceive it. Personally, the existing last sentence of the lead is to my eyes enough, although I would definitely change "Jewish denominations" to something more specific, or remove those two words entirely, as it seems to imply all Jewish denominations hold that belief, and I'm not sure that's verifiable. Alternately, the last sentence could be replaced with something like "There is controversy about whether Messianic Judaism can be counted as being a legitimate form of Judaism" and move the details down lower. John Carter (talk) 21:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Give me another minute to combine the last ref, and I'll explain. -- Avi (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Cool that's a lot better, I'll leave it be. John pretty much all other Jews and Jewish denominations, and a lot of Christians, reject Messianics as authentic Judaism so it's a valid thing to say and needs to be there. My concern was that it was just getting too spammy about it, it's fine now. -Bikinibomb (talk) 21:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 21:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. I've done what I can to make the lead look less like a linkfest, and yet keep the information. The sentence now reads:

Messianic Jews practice their faith in a way they consider to be authentically Torah-observant and culturally Jewish. However, Jews,^[4] Jewish denominations,^[5] and many Christians^[6] do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism, but a form of Christianity.

John, there are three major denominations of Judaism (by tradition and population), and Recinstructionism is most likely the most major of the remaining, If all of them, and most Christians, are in agreement as to where Messianic Judaism fits in the religious spectrum, that is a major point which is leadworthy (last section of the lead), AND is most likely THE major issue that causes Messianism to be as fractured as it is. Look at the available literature. There are almost as many different "statements of belief" and explanations of how much, if any, of post-scriptural commentary is relevant as there are congregations and websites. -- Avi (talk) 21:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

No disagreement. However, we should not have this article depend on the content of another article, which the phrase "Jewish denominations" does. Either say the three major denominations, name them, or remove it would likely be the best options. John Carter (talk) 21:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It's actually all major. Now wikipedia is never to be used as a source, but according to the Jewish denominations article, it lists three major and three others; Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform as the big three, and Reconstructionist, Renewal, and Secular as the others. I have quotes from the first 5. As for secular, I found a quote on an e-mail (unacceptable as a source for wiki) which was rather telling:

I don't have much trouble with this issue. Of course, belief in Jesus as son of God is antithetical to traditional Judaism. But Humanistic Jews have an even stronger reason to reject Messianic beliefs; they involve the supernatural son of a supernatural father. Enough said?
— http://home.teleport.com/~hellman/archive/messianic.hj

So I think it is safe to say all Jewish denominations. Your (and anyone else's) thoughts? -- Avi (talk) 21:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, all other Jews I've ever heard of say the same, including secular/atheist Jews. Any others would have to be really really fringe, I think. -Bikinibomb (talk) 22:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Then the phrase "jewish denominations" could be removed entirely. I definitely think that what I think might be intended might be better phrased as "Despite the presence of the word "Judaism" in the name of the group, Messianic Judaism is not recognized as a part of Judaism by any of the other major groups or denominations which refer to themselves as Jews." John Carter (talk) 16:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe. Only intro problem now might be that if you just say "Jews" flatly (rather than "other Jews") then you might imply that none of the Messianics are halachly Jews even if once converted Orthodox or born to a Jewish mother -- though a lot of Messianic converts are undoubtedly Gentiles who aren't halachly Jewish, but not all of them. In all the criticism it needs to be clear that apostate Jews don't magically become Gentiles if they go Messianic, they are still Jews. -Bikinibomb (talk) 08:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps then altering the phrasing to say something like "Messianic Judaism as a group (institution, whatever), is not recognized as being "Jewish" by the larger Jewish community, or by the major recognized denominations of Judaism." As long as it was clear that what was being referred to is Messianic Judaism per se, and not any of it's members individually, I don't think that there would be much of a problem. John Carter (talk) 15:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. Another problem I see is statements like The state's position is backed by all streams of normative Judaism, none of which recognizes messianic Jews as Jews.” Compared to Similarly, non-adherence by a Jew to the Jewish principles of faith, or even formal conversion to another faith, does not make one lose one's Jewish status. in Who is a Jew?. All I've ever seen is that while apostate Jews may lose some privileges and favor in the Jewish community, they no more become Gentiles and non-Jewish due to their Messianic affiliations than a woman who has had sex can return to being a virgin: once a Jew always a Jew. It kind of bothers me that some editors here probably know all about this but haven't seen fit to include it for NPOV alongside implications that no Messianics are "real" Jews. So I think this needs to be better explained, along with the regular stuff that Gentile conversion to MJ isn't a valid conversion to Judaism, and those are the ones most viewed to be not really Jewish. In other words, in the Jewish view, there's a mix of real Jews who have been mislead, along with pretend Jews, to put it bluntly. As to how many of each there may be is anyone's guess, Jews for Judaism says Over the past 25 years, more than 275,000 Jews worldwide have been converted so according to them there have been at least that many "real" Jews who are MJ in that time period. Anyway I'll work on all this later. -Bikinibomb (talk) 09:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Also I guess I didn't really notice, there are still like 17 critical refs stuffed into the intro, even though there are only three links. That's off the hook, still basically a whole criticism section before you even get to much about MJ. I know it's nice to have your side presented first and all that but it's not appropriate or neutral, unless maybe you create an article just for MJ criticism. So yeah, the intro has still gotta actually go down to only a couple refs. Then knock yourself out in the Jewish objections section. I'll handle it later if no one else does, so don't be surprised when it happens. -Bikinibomb (talk) 09:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I moved 9 intro objection sources down to Jewish objections, there are still 8 objection sources left in intro, no meaning is lost. Still a lot, but better than 17. -Bikinibomb (talk) 19:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I updated sections and links I think were accidentally removed during the last POV revert. See my comment above on the MJAA POV pushing above. Someone certainly took the time to remove good portions of the article and I think a few reverts or two have left some carefully worded sections in disrepair. Good job on fixing the page so far. I'll do what I can to go through the article with a fine toothed comb. inigmatus (talk) 17:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Woopie! After a lull, I finally did some housecleaning today. As per usual, please forgive me if I stepped on any toes. I really want to see this article finish its long and hard journey to a fully sourced article so we can remove some of the banners. inigmatus (talk) 18:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

A-Class Article Congratulations

I just wanted to say thank you to all the editors and regular contributors of this article for a job in bringing this article to a well-deserved A-class article scale. There remains much to do to make the article a candidate for Featured Article status, but I believe with the consistent due process of discussion and editing and good faith that this article has enjoyed the past year, that it won't be long before a few dedicated editors can push this article to Featured Status. Thanks for all your hard work, tireless discussions, compromise, and diligence. This thanks especially goes out to the editors and admins from the Jewish, Christian, and other editing communities who have taken part in ensuring this article maintains a stable neutral point of view, though the road has been long, your patience in seeing the quality of this article rise above any points of view we may each individually hold, is sincerely appreciated - as I believe this article finally stands as a role model that other controversial articles on Wikipedia can look up to. Hopefully this sincere appreciation for this article's neutrality extends to the truly neutral readers who come across this article, and for them I hope these words of appreciation speak for them. Thank you, and I look forward to helping to maintain this article in the coming years with you all. Shalom. inigmatus (talk) 22:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Review

Right now, there are still a few things which are almost certain to keep the article from FA status. The article contains several single sentence paragraphs, which are definitely frowned upon. Also, the lead is a bit short, and certainly doesn't really conform to WP:LEAD. I would think that at least it might be possible to add the "Identity" section to the lead. I am nominating it for GA status in any event, to see if it falls short in any other areas.John Carter (talk) 15:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

We could certainly use the feedback. Thanks for nominating the article. inigmatus (talk) 16:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

I’m going to fail this article at this time for a couple of reasons:

There are a number of citation tags in the text; these must be corrected before this article could be considered for promotion.
Some of the prose is a little akward. For example, why is “scripture scholar” preferable to the more common “biblical scholar”? Is there some special Messianic designation that I am unaware of?
Parts of the article need expansion. Good examples of this would be the lead (three sentences for an article that is over 84K is not good; it should be more like three paragraphs). It seems to me, that if there can only be one or two sentences under a sub-heading, it should be expanded or perhaps it doesn’t need to be a sub-heading at all. Here are some suggestions:
- The editors might be able to improve the article by consolidating sections into one another; for example, the three sections on the scriptures (Canon, Torah, and Scriptural Commentary) could reduced to one sub-heading of scriptures.
- As it stands, there’s a good deal of repetition and this should be eliminated. For example, the article talks about Jewish rejection of Jesus as Messiah, and this information is subsequently repeated in the subheading on Jesus.
- As a liturgist and former Messianic Jew, I find it horrifying to say the least that not one word is breathed about the way MJs go about doing worship, other than six sentences on Messianic music, none of which mention how it might conceivably be used in a congregational setting.
This is just a suggestion, but are there any other photographs that could be added?
I would also skip on the Yiddish. It’s not prominent, but where it does exist, it could be confusing (I know what a Shul is, but not everyone else will).
Finally, and this is just a suggestion for aesthetic purposes, but the editors might want to consider linking to main articles in appropriate contexts. Again, as an example, liking to the Brother Daniel case in the section under law of return.

I think the article has a lot of potential, but that being said, I don’t think it’s ready for GA promotion at this time (I don’t think it’s really up to snuff to be an A class article, but that’s up to members of the project to decide, not me). I commend the suggestions above to your attention and invite the editors to renominate the article when these suggestions have been implemented or otherwise addressed. -- jackturner3 (talk) 21:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Coalition of Torah Observant Messianic Congregations

An editor recently changed the link for this group (in the Torah-focused section of external links); it seems that there are dueling websites run by dueling groups each laying claim to the organization. Not sure what the right thing to do is, but I reverted the change until some kind of discussion can be had. Tb (talk) 18:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

CTOMC split. One group in Canada now, the other in the US. Both are relevant. inigmatus (talk) 22:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

thx. Tb (talk) 22:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

To CWatchman:

If you would like to add your research concerning Semicha for the global messianic community to view and discuss, consider checking out jerusalemcouncil.org and other sites related to it. I am sure they would love to hear your input. inigmatus (talk) 05:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I will look into this.

CWatchman (talk) 12:55, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Self identity

I added some quotations to this sub-chapter from UMJC:

One of the famous Messianic organizations - the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC)- defines Messianic Judaism as "a movement of Jewish congregations and groups committed to Yeshua the Messiah that embrace the covenantal responsibility of Jewish life and identity rooted in Torah, expressed in tradition, and renewed and applied in the context of the New Covenant."

"Jewish life is life in a concrete, historical community. Thus, Messianic Jewish groups must be fully part of the Jewish people, sharing its history and its covenantal responsibility as a people chosen by God. At the same time, faith in Yeshua also has a crucial communal dimension. This faith unites the Messianic Jewish community and the Christian Church..."

[11]

Vladislav1968 (talk) 19:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)Vladislav1968

UMJC

Just a note, that the UMJC, though a large organization, does not represent the majority of Messianic Judaism, or those who claim to be Messianic Jews. To insert their viewpoints as "mainstream" distorts the reality of many disagreements other organizations have with them. inigmatus (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but this definition is ok for Messianic Judaism.Vladislav1968 (talk) 21:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)Vladislav1968

Scriptural commentary

Please add a link after these lines "Tim Hegg of TorahResource, who has written commentaries on Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and is presently examining Matthew" (Scriptural commentary) to sub-chupter One Law theology. People must know about this theology!

Dr Dan Juster wrote me by e-mail:

He fails to distinguish universal Torah from the Jewish responsibility part of Torah. So all have the same relationship to Torah responsibility. In the UMJC we call this view a One Law view and the movements they are a part of One Law Movements. One time in debate with Russ Resnick, he made the statement, that God does not care whether or not we are born Jew or Gentile, but the true Jews are those who are either born Jew or Gentile, believe in Yeshua and keep the Torah. This is a type of replacement theology. You can quote me. Dan J. Vladislav1968 (talk) 21:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)Vladislav1968

About Daniel Zion

Dearest friends!

I read an article but there is no info about Daniel Zion. Why?

Below is some qoutations about him:

"Rabbi Daniel's major contribution to the Messianic Judaism is his personal example. He lived 100 % Jewish lifestyle, and was 100 % follower of the Messiah Yeshua. He did not compromise faith for neither money from the Christian missions, nor did he succumb to the pressures of the chief rabbinate. Yeshua was his savior and friend and until the last days of his life Rabbi Daniel Zion lived up to the poem that he wrote with the acrostic of his name, Daniel Zion the Servant of God.

The (Daver) Word of God is my path,

The (Ner) Lamp of God is my guide,

The (Iraat) Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom,

The (Ahavat) Love of God is my Life,

The (Laasoth) Doing the will of God is my aspiration,

(Zedek) Righteousness and Justice are my goals,

His (Isurim) Suffering is my atonement,

He will (OYagen) protect you in all your ways,

The (Nezah) Eternal one of Israel is my comfort.

In 1979 Rabbi Daniel Zion departed to be with the Lord in a ripe old age of 96 years. The Bulgarian Jewish community of Israel gave him full military, and state honors. His bier stood in the center of Jaffa with a military guard and at noon was carried by men all the way to the Holon cemetery on foot. He was buried as the Chief Rabbi of Bulgarian Jews who saved them from the Nazi holocaust. He was 100 % Jewish 100 % follower and disciple of Yeshua the Messiah." (Rabbi Daniel Zion z"l by Joseph Shulam. The Chief Rabbi of Bulgarian Jews During World War II http://www.torahtime.org/studies) Vladislav1968 (talk) 08:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)Vladislav1968

My guess would be that no one had thought to do so before. We do need sources which meet wikipedia guidelines for WP:RELIABILITY and WP:VERIFIABILITY to add any information, but I imagine that they can be rather easily found. I have added the name as a "missing article" on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Messianic Judaism page, and with any luck we'll get some information together to create the article soon. John Carter (talk) 14:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

This article in Hebrew

Dear friends!

How can I read this article about Messianic Judaism in English?

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%99%D7%94%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%97%D7%99%D7%AA

Vladislav1968 (talk) 21:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)Vladislav1968

The header and Cohn-Sherbok quote

I have edited the reference to Cohn-Sherbok, not because it isn't valid, but that its inclusion where it was made the sentence misleading. It is Cohn-Sherbok himself who offers three alternative models for understanding the relationship between Messianic Judaism and the modern Jewish world, not Jewry itself that offers any compromise. There would be nothing wrong with adding the reference but it would need to be a stand-alone statement that one academic, who is also a rabbi, has noted in a scholarly work in 2001 that one position that could be taken is that Jews should consider the place of Messianic Judaism within the contemporary Jewish community. Allowing the reference to support a statement that a segment of the Jewish world does not consider Messianic Judaism as being a form of Christianity would be spurious. Best, A Sniper 19:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I would venture to say that removing the exception obscures it unnecessarily, so in response, I removed the entire disputed section to Identity where it more appropriately fits, and such exceptions can be noted. inigmatus (talk) 19:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

What is disputed? I have merely removed part of a sentence (with a reference) that is misleading - no matter how respected he is, Cohn-Sherbok is but one individual and the 'exceptions' line gives the impression this applies to contemporary Jews, whereas in fact it represents just him (and one or two other contemporary Jewish writers). I see that the Cohn-Sherbok information is already contained in the article, and I even added a reference to his work. What I believe you meant was that you yourself dispute the statement about Jews and some Christians and wanted to remove it from the header. It would be deceptive to give the impression in the header that Messianic Judaism is a form of Judaism, and the fact it is actually a controversial group that is wholly unacceptable to all Jewish denominations is strikingly appropriate. A Sniper 20:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Alright enough of the reverts. Let's discuss this change here. inigmatus (talk) 20:38, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Snipper! Please don't remove these lines. You removed them many times. It isn't ok,it is vandalism. I ask admins help. Thank you. Vladislav1968 (talk) 21:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)Vladislav1968

It isn't vandalism when one uses the talk pages and tries to be constructive, as I have pointed out to your admin friend. A Sniper 21:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Content removed from intro

I have recently removed the following incomplete content and citation from the introduction: "For most American Jews, it is acceptable to blend some degree of foreign spiritual elements with Judaism. The one exception is Christianity, which is perceived to be incompatible with any form of Jewishness....Messianic Jewish groups are thus seen as antithetical to Judaism and are completely rejected by the majority of Jews."

Baased on this text, I would have to question both the reliability of the source and the appropriateness for its inclusion in the lead. Based on this material, it is possible to integrate in Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, and Sikhism with Judaism better than Christianity, which as opposed to them is explicitly basaed on Judaism. Unless I can receive clarification to support that belief, or a clearer text, I have to assume the source may be far less than reliable. Also, it specifically refers only to "American Jews", which is not the entire scope of Messianic Judaism. Also, it says "are seen as being" something without indicating by whom they are thus seen, which is potentially a cause of disagreement itself. I invite discussion and clarification, as indicated above. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 20:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

The Cambridge companion to American Judaism is about as good a source as one can get, and the material is factual, highly relevant, presents the majority view, and accurately presented. I'm not seeing a policy based reason for removing it. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Dangling lead

The end of the existing lead "though there are exceptions" doesn't make it clear where those exceptions are. If it includes members of the Jewish community, it directly contradicts the earlier statement, and that earlier statement should be changed. If it doesn't, then it should clarify that the exceptions are strictly in the non-Jewish world. John Carter (talk) 21:16, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

THANK YOU John Carter. My previous point was not that the reference isn't a decent one, but that the statement as to "exceptions" is not clear and is actually misleading. I have now tried to re-write the line so that it is acceptable to all. Best, A Sniper 21:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Your change is a mastery of NPOV wording. Thank you for your diligence and good faith, as well as your input. :) It's acceptable on this end too. inigmatus (talk) 22:53, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I try and remember that this is an encyclopedia. Compromise isn't always possible, but in this case a progressive Jewish scholar & (Reform) rabbi has indeed taken a position and there is no reason that it not be included. That said, I wanted no ambiguity in the overall Jewish (and partial Christian) position and believe it should remain in the lead. Best, A Sniper 22:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Fringe views

A recent edit was reverted by a user who left the comment "You haven't right do so! Why don't editor protect an article?"

To respond to this, the view of Cohn-Sherbok is extremely fringe. I mean, extraordinarily so. This isn't a matter of POV. He is a single voice saying something that goes against a near unanimity of rabbis from every walk of Jewish life.

Furthermore, even Cohn-Sherbok offers no theological reasons for his view. Only that in his view, MJ isn't going away, so we ought to just accept them. Since he offers no theological reasons for accepting MJ as a form of Judaism, his view constitutes no more than a personal opinion. And even if you consider it a notable one, in that it has been published in a book, it is still one voice out of thousands.

I'm not saying you can't include his view in the article. By all means include it. Whether I object to it or not is irrelevant. This is Wikipedia, and POV doesn't pertain. But it most certainly does not belong in the header/intro of this article. That is a clear violation of WP:UNDUE.

I can understand why you might want to have the point made early on in the article. But that's your POV. Putting it there gives it undue weight. It's like putting the theory the sun orbits around the Earth in the header of Astronomy. Does the view exist? Yes. Is it fringe? Also yes. -LisaLiel (talk) 19:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Very well put,LisaLiel. Although, as a compromise, I wrote the Cohn-Sherbok line, I never believed it should be in the header. A swarm of (in my opinion POV) editors were determined to remove the critical preceding sentence re: world Jewish opinion, and for the moment the C-J reference stayed in the header. I pointed out that it would be misleading and deceitful to remove the references to international Jewish (and some Christian) opinion about MJ from the header, as well as trying to use C-J's fringe statement as justification for claiming there are now "exceptions" (the word used in the previous edit) to world Jewish thinking on the matter. Thank you, A Sniper 19:37, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The opinion that the MJ are "true" Jews may be "fringe" to the majority of Judaism, but this article is not about the majority of Judaism, but this particular religious group, which does see itself as being "truly" Jewish. The opinion of the rest of Judaism may well belong somewhere in wikipedia, but not necessarily here. Now, having said that, I do think that the introduction should be adjusted to more clearly indicate that the Messianic Jews themselves see themselves as being "true" Jews. "Torah-observant" is not synonymous to "true" Judaism in the eyes of most non-Jews. As someone who is neither MJ or Jewish, but rather Roman Catholic, I can I think say that it isn't to me anyway. It does seem to be an essential part of the faith, and given the existing content of the second sentence of the third paragraph, there is no good reason to keep that information from the introduction. I acknowledge that the reference to the single rabbi may not have been the best way to place that information there, but the information is important enough to be included in the lead somehow.

However, the lead is still frankly not long enough for an article of this length. Maybe the best way to proceed would be to indicate what information should and should not be included in the lead, and then arrive at a consensus of how to phrase what should be put there. A clear statement that the MJ consider themselves Jews clearly does belong there. Some indication as to when the MJ movement began, and the nature of its worship services, would also seemingly be important enough to be included. What else do the rest of you think should be there? John Carter (talk) 19:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments about what MJ thinks about itself can go under "Self-Identification". Look, it's enough that the article is entitled "Messianic Judaism" when the virtually unanimous Jewish view is that calling it such is an abuse of language and a propagandistic and deceitful trick.

I'm sorry to be blunt about this, but the fact that the article is entitled "Messianic Judaism" suffices to indicate that its members consider the movement to be a form of Judaism. It is unnecessary to belabor the point in the introduction. But since the MJ view is at odds with virtually all Jewish groups and streams and movements and outlooks and views, including the fact that Jews disagree about MJ being a form of Judaism in the header/intro is a fair balance to the use of the name. -LisaLiel (talk) 20:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The opinion of other groups than the subject group, however, does not deserve greater clarity than the opinion of the group itself does in the lead to the article on that group, which, as I already indicated, is true of this article as it stands. And, to be blunt about this, the opinion of members of other conflicting groups which hold differing opinions, which you have clearly identified yourself as, can be seen reasonably as potentially leading to their having a conflict of interests, which, as per that page, they should refrain from editing. Your own statement above can be clearly seen as indicating that you may yourself be allowing your own COI to color your contributions. You have clearly made your opinion clear. Thank you. I await responses from others as well. Personally, I can and do think that it makes no sense to say explicitly that other Jews do not see the MJ as being Jews unless we also clearly and explicitly state that the MJ do. Otherwise, of what significance would stating the other opinion be? John Carter (talk) 20:58, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to agree that the header is now balanced, especially when you consider the very article name (that LisaLiel mentions). Anyone reading the article can clearly see that Messianic Judaism's adherents consider themselves Jews, including the details listed in the header, while at the same time acknowledging that the world's Jews do not consider these adherents any more Jewish than a member of any other non-Jewish faith. Perhaps we can all move on, as it took quite awhile to get this balance right? Cheers, A Sniper 21:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to tell you Lisa's opinion is her opinion. Wiki isn't Orthodox or Hasidic encyclopedia. We need write full info. Thank you. Vladislav1968 (talk) 21:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The views of these two individuals are extreme minority views. They certainly don't belong in the lead. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I find "However, Jews[5] of all denominations[6] and many Christians[7] do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism, but a form of Christianity." to be a clear violation of WP:NDA. This article has achieved balance on the viewpoints before, and removing the references provided unnecessarily causes conflict. Saying the article's title alone is a "claim" that should be "counterbalanced" with a statement contrary to the article's title, is nothing but a disclaimer, no matter how true the counter-statement is. Either remove this section too to the identity section, or include the wording of the previously agreed consensus in the header, or include a counter-counter reference. inigmatus (talk) 22:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about "WP:NDA? There is no disclaimer in the article lead, or anywhere else for that matter. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Disclaimer: Messianic Judaism is not Judaism. "However, Jews[5] of all denominations[6] and many Christians[7] do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism, but a form of Christianity." - no matter how sourced it is, it is a disclaimer. inigmatus (talk) 22:44, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not a "disclaimer", as outlined in WP:NDA, that's Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer we revert back to the previous consensus to alleviate this current dispute:

Messianic Jews practice their faith in a way they consider to be authentically Torah-observant and culturally Jewish. However, Jews[5] of all denominations[6] and many Christians[7] do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism, but a form of Christianity. In 2001, a rabbi & religious studies academic argued for consideration of the place of Messianic Judaism within the contemporary Jewish community.[8][9] inigmatus (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't misrepresent "the previous consensus". The extreme minority view was added to the lead just a couple of weeks ago[1], and it has been fought over ever since. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand is it Orthodox Jewish encyclopedia or it is neutral one? Reader must have full info (or links) in the top of an article. It is JUST neutral position:

Messianic Jews practice their faith in a way they consider to be authentically Torah-observant and culturally Jewish. However, Jews[5] of all denominations[6] and many Christians[7] do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism, but a form of Christianity. In 2001, a rabbi & religious studies academic argued for consideration of the place of Messianic Judaism within the contemporary Jewish community. Vladislav1968 (talk) 10:42, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand your argument at all, Vladislav1968. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. In writing about Messianic Judaism, not only the beliefs of the group need to be mentioned but also reference to international Jewry - from liberal/progressive Reform to the most Orthodox - rejecting Messianic Judaism as being 'Jewish'. The reference to the rabbi/academic, no matter how 'groundbreaking' it is for Messianic Judaism, is still a fringe reference. How balancing the article could somehow be stretched by you into being an attempt to create an "Orthodox Jewish encyclopedia" is puzzling. Best, A Sniper 17:21, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Judaism Objections - State of Israel

Since the State of Israel no longer objects to Messianic Jews, I propose moving the State of Israel subsection to the Identity section of the article. inigmatus (talk) 19:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

This would be misleading. This information, though very important, pertains not to Judaism and religion, but to state definition. It basically says that anyone, regardless of religion, is considered for Law of Return purposes - whatever they believe - as long as they have a Jewish parent. This is not a religious decision, and does not impact upon Judaism's branches and does not make one 'a Jew'. This actually really isn't 'news' - go to Google News, do a search of 'Israel', 'Law of Return' and 'Messianic' and you'll find almost nothing. Respectfully, A Sniper (talk) 15:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I would also note that there are no independent sources that confirm any of what you've written (try a simple Google or the Israeli Supreme Court site) - only Messianic/Christian sites. Why? Because, in fact, nothing has really changed: a 'Messianic Jew' is of course allowed to return to Israel if they have a Jewish parent or grandparent, but they are still not considered Jews by the religion. A Sniper (talk)

The April 16 ruling does not mean that the State of Israel accepts Messianic Jews as part of Judaism. See the section below. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:40, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Father's side only?

Our reference for the April 16th ruling says "being a Messianic Jew does not prevent one from receiving citizenship in Israel under the Law of Return or the Law of Citizenship, if one is a descendent of Jews on one's father's side (and thus not Jewish according to halacha).". I've seen other sources saying that it also meant that being a Messianic Jew does not now prevent you from being considered a Jew if you are descended on your mother's side. I'm a little confused here - did Israel always consider you Jewish you were Messianic and descended on your mother's side (this article didn't seem to say that prior to April 16th) or are you for some reason still not considered a Jew if you are Messianic and descended on your mother's side? The latter would seem strange to me. Any more info, anyone? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The laws related to aliyah can be found at the Who is a Jew? article:

The "Law of Return" distinguishes between two categories of subjects:

A Jew (One who has been born to a Jewish mother or converted)
A non-Jew, who is "a son/daughter or a grandson/granddaughter of a Jew, and the spouse thereof"
- this person remains non-Jewish, but nevertheless "is granted equal right of Aliyah and absorption" -
- this is the paragraph 4A of the law.

There is therefore a distinction between being an Isreali and being Jewish. A Sniper (talk) 15:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I understand it. I don't understand the impact of the recent Supreme court decision.

As I understood it until April 16th a person was not granted Aliyah by Israel if they were a Messianic Jew, even if they qualified as a Jew on the basis of ancestry (according to halaca).
Also as I understand it a person was not granted Aliyah if they were a Messianic Jew, even if they otherwise qualified for it under paragraph 4A.

My understanding is that the April 16th decision reversed this, but our sources only say "if their father was Jewish", presumably meaning the second of the cases I describe above. My question is this: Did the April 16th decision reverse both cases 1 and 2 above, or just case 2? The latter seems unlikely, yet it is what our sources seem to say. If the former then we need to make some changes, both here and in related articles. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

My qyestion is this: find ONE, SINGLE reliable source to verify that ANYTHING notworthy occurred on April 16. Only CBN and other Messianic/Christian sites have been given as credible references. I would submit that nothing has occurred that has changed what I've written above re: return to Israel - if a person has a Jewish parent (mother or father) or grandparent (male or famele), Israel recognizes them as having the right to return, and this remains the same as it has been. However, it does not mean that Israel or the established Jewish religion recognizes that person as being 'Jewish'. A Sniper (talk) 16:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me that this case, whose appellants are Messianic Jews, is relevant to an article on Messianic Judaism, even if it is not really relevant to "who is a Jew". Also mentions of the original decision were not put in by me. I'm just trying to make sure that they are accurate and up-to-date.

I really would welcome clarification of what the April 16th decision means. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems I was right. According to the Jerusalem Post the ruling does apply effectively only to those who had Jewish fathers but not mothers (plus some other cases involving grandparents). A person is barred from Aliyah if they were Jewish but converted to another religion. Someone with a Jewish father but not a mother is eligible for Aliyah but is technically not a Jew. Therefore such a person who is a Messianic Jew is not excluded by reason of having converted, because they were never (technically) a Jew to start with. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:14, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Kudos to User:Inigmatus for finding the Jerusalem Post reference that explained this properly. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know of any other articles which discussed this decision and which we should update? DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeshua

User:Jayjg, what is the objection to the phrase "Jesus of Nazareth, whom they call by the Hebrew name Yeshua"? DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Cohn-Sherbok reference

The article states that Cohn-Sherbok says that the movement may be viewed as legitimate Judaism. May we please have a page number for verification? Based on what I could read in the GoogleBook source, he does not make that point per se; rather, he discussed three models, the Orthodox exclusive, the Non-Orthodox exclusive, and the pluralistic view. He says that proponents of the last school of though, like Harris-Shapiro, would say it is legitimate. Does he argue for one of the three views over the other two? If we cannot provide a direct quotation that he does so, the statement in the article would suffer from being original research. Has anyone read the entire book? -- Avi (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I would agree, Avi. The wording is now precisely accurate to that of the publisher, defining the thesis. It does not take away from the intended tone, but is accurate and NPOV. I also inserted more info re: C-S and his post as a theology scholar. Best, A Sniper (talk) 23:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Tag

I placed a tag in the intro concerning the sentence:

"However, Jews[6] of all denominations[7] and many Christians[8] do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism[citation needed], but a form of Christianity."

It is clear that "Jews of all denominations ... do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism, but a form of Christianity."

It is also clear (based on the references given) that "many Christians do ... consider Messianic Judaism to be ... a form of Christianity."

What however is not included in the references is that "many Christians do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism".

Some people might argue that one implies the other but a) that is an opinion and would be POV to endorse, b) is not mentioned by the Christian references given.

Str1977 ^(talk) 09:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

excellent catch. inigmatus (talk) 15:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I've cleared this ambiguity up and removed the tag. Best, A Sniper (talk) 17:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Self-identification

Somewhere in the editing of the intro we seem to have lost the simple statement that Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Jews. "Torah-observant and culturally Jewish" isn't the same, and we need to make it clear that these people do believe that. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that it was a person sympathetic to the group who made that edit, and it was never challenged. Best, A Sniper (talk) 18:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll wait a while and see if anyone else objects, otherwise I'll put it back. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think that this is clean and simple. -- Avi (talk) 07:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems good to me. I'm going to add some more of the above references. This is usually contentious, and rock solid references will help. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

As each of your references was only used once throughout the entire article, to maintain consistency with the other reference lists, I have combined all three into one footnote. This prevents having five or ten footnote references in a row. -- Avi (talk) 14:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Recent additons re:Trinity

The following was recently added to the article:

Because Messianic Jews fail to recognize the [[Holy Trinity]], they are not recognized as Christians by the two main Christian Churches, ie the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.<ref>[http://www.ewtn.com/library/theology/mormbap1.htm Mormon baptism held to be invalid]</ref> Belief in [[Nicean creed]] is held as a prerequisite by most Christian bodies. <ref>[http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:-XOPg8Q8QvkJ:www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hazak/af-answer.pdf+shilush+trinity&hl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=ca Hebrew streams]</ref> However, many Messianics use the kabbalistic concept of [[Shilush]] to carry the same meaning <ref>[http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Yeshua_and_Kabbalah Yeshua and Kabbalah]</ref>.

The problem with this is that the first reference does not discuss Messianic Judaism but Mormonism. To make any assumptions or connections from the one to the other, no matter how logical, is a violation of the wikipedia prohibition against original research and synthesis. Wikibooks, or any wiki project, should never be used as a reliable source, as they are all open to public editing. The middle reference is an essay by Paul Sumner. Who is he and why is he a reliable source about anything other than his own opinion? -- Avi (talk) 17:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

lively discussions

I was asked enter dialogue here-- over what and with who I am not sure since I had 2 or 3 edits undone without dialog or reason.

Removing a POV flag is exactly the sort of thing that shows you are POV. It is also totally inappropriate for other reasons.

I will repeat my comment so that other my dialoge-- anti-Messianic Judaism slant to article.

Is there anyone here claiming to not be anti-Messianic Judaism?--Carlaude 22:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I am a Wikipedia editor and I strive for neutrality. I know, from dialogue (and their user pages), who the regular editors are that come from a MJ background. We do not always agree, but we work things out. Your edits, on the other hand, appeared to slant things towards POV - even if the explanation is that this was to counter what you characterize as an anti-MJ slant to the whole article. I disagree and hope others will jump in. My main objective is to create an encyclopedia. Best, A Sniper (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It is not Wikipedia's place to say that Messianic Judaism is or is not part of Judaism-- implicitly or explicitly. It is a notable view that they are even if it is not a mainstream view among this or that group. But the edits/undos are POV because they take sides on the issue.--Carlaude 22:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Per-WP:BRD, if you disagree, you need to dialogue with me. Not just revert.

I'll wait another day for dialogue.--Carlaude 13:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I think one of the things you have to do Carlaude is explain exactly what it is that you think gives the article its "anti-MJ POV". No I'm not disagreeing with you, and no I'm not anti- MJ. But we need to talk about specifics or the dialogue will simply degenerate. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I find the article to be neutrally balanced, however some sections I specifically find POV, but thats the point of some of the sections. If you can provide specifics of what is not NPOV, then we all have something to work with. And yes, I'm an chasidic Messianic Jew. inigmatus (talk) 15:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for asking, Clayworth.

It is not Wikipedia's place to say that Messianic Judaism is or is not part of Judaism-- implicitly or explicitly. It is a notable view that they are even if it is not a mainstream view among this or that group.

My (minor) edits to the article remove POV statement that implicitly consider Messianic Judaism not part of Judaism were removed-- several times-- without reason or dialogue. This was done by A Sniper and another as I recall.

For example (my edits in bold):

All other denominations of Judaism, as well as national Jewish organizations reject Messianic Judaism as a form of Judaism.

However, Jews of all other denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism...

The trouble here is that while "Jews of all denominations" carries the implication that MJs are not Jews, "other Jews..." carries the implication that they are. We need a neutral way of saying this. Not sure what that is. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

However, with all due respect, the addition of the word other creates a fringe POV. Leaving the word out makes a factual, mainstream, non-fringe statement that Jews (Jewry, Judaism, Jewish denominations, the contemporary Jewish establishment) do not consider MJ to be Judaism but another religion, Christianity. It is perfectly valid to document that MJs believe themselves to be a part of Judaism, but equally valid to cite that this is not an accepted reality for Jews/Judaism. Adding the word other immediately spins the sentence to imply rather boldly that MJ is Judaism. Forget ones personal bias and please try and see that the only way to maintain overall neutrality is to a) allow users on the one hand to carefully and clearly document the beliefs of MJ, while at the same time b) noting without ambiguity, and with authoritative references, that Judaism as an establishment simply doesn't agree. Maybe one day it will agree (as Cohn-Sherbok maintains). This is why I feel that we have some kind of consensus at the moment among the various contributors of all persuasions. Edit warring has ceased and I would be so bold myself to state that we've actually assisted each other here. Best, A Sniper (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Sniper, you are right. But Carlaude is right too. Neither is a neutral statement.

Let me explain what will happen here, because I've had this discussion before. Some editors will (very vociferously) insist that we say "all Jews believe that MJ are not Jews". This is because those editors do not consider MJ to be Jews, so from their perspective the statement is correct. Other editors will want to say that "other Jews consider MJ are not Jews" because they consider MJ are Jews (or at least don't want to difinitively say that they are not). Each set of editors will insist that their view is the neutral one . DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

In these situations, I believe the operative words are in bold in the following quotation:

This page in a nutshell: All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing significant views fairly, proportionately and without bias.
— WP:NPOV

Another quote:

Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.
— WP:NPOV#Undue weight

The majority opinion of people who are associated with Judaism, as demonstrated in the article, is that Messianic Judaism is not Judaism, so the addition of "other" would be greater WP:NPOV violation than not having it. -- Avi (talk) 19:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

As I said I've been here before. The subject of the article is Messianic Judaism, not Judaism. Proportionately means proportionate to the subject. If that were not the case then we could say in the article Judaism that Judaism is untrue, which is certainly the majority view of the human race as a whole. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't accept that argument, DJ Clayworth - the very nature of MJ is to assert its place within Judaism; to embrace and joyfully celebrate all aspects of Judaica, from ethnicity to ritual. To a casual reader, this infers that MJ is therefore Judaism and its adherents Jewish. However, the reader needs to also be referred to the fact that Judaism itself, as an established, historical entity and reality, identifies MJ as being another faith. It is therefore difficult to separate MJ from the wider issue of Jews and Judaism due to the very nature of MJ and its beliefs and assertions. Best, A Sniper (talk) 19:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course we should say clearly that Jews, apart from MJ, do not consider MJ Jewish. Yet, for a parallel, Mormonism is a sect that self-identifies as Christian, yet is not considered Christian by a huge majority of (other) Christians. Wikipedia always refers to "other Christians" when talking about those outside the sect. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The Roman Catholics decision not to accept Mormon baptisms dates to 2001. The Jewish faith's decision not to accept Messianic Judaism dates back to Jesus and the formation of Christianity itself. -- Avi (talk) 22:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Similarly with other branches of Christianity that recently changed their decision. Mormonism was considered as Christianity, by Christians, for hundreds of years. Mesiannism was never considered Judaism by Jews. The analogy is thereby flawed in my opinion. -- Avi (talk) 22:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

More simply put, one of the things that all branches of Judaism agree on is that MJ is not a branch of Judaism. On this point one finds rare unanimity. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Small corrections, Avi: 1) Mormonism has only been around since the middle of the 19th century, 2) Pharisaism, Nazarenes, and The Way were all considered sects by 1st-century Jews. (Luke 5:30, Acts 24:5, Acts 24:14) ⇔ ChristTrekker 16:30, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

DJ Clayworth, it is not my belief that MJs are Jews or are not Jews - but it is the Jews belief, or at least the verifiable references point to this fact. Groups have the right to self-identify, therefore MJs have the right to consider themselves Jewish, and to promote that belief, just as Jews as a contemporary establishment have the right to consider those who have accepted another religion as not being within Judaism. Wikipedia is about the verifiable. Re-placing the POV tag is to assert that all of us have not been balanced, which is a shame considering the work that has gone into keeping the edit warring down and the overall neutrality obvious. Best, A Sniper (talk) 19:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't my intention to insult anyone. However removal of the tag can also be seen as an insult, essentially saying to the person who placed it "your criticism is not valid and is not even worth of consideration". Let's try to reach a consensus on whether it's a valid point or not - then the tag can be removed if appropriate. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments DJ Clayworth, and I know you were not insulting anyone. Steven J. Anderson's comments below are indeed useful for this current situation. Carlaude placed the tag, called edits 'vandalism', sought the assistance of admin, and stated that they weren't going to 'stand for this'. I would suggest that removal of the tag, coupled with continued consensus-building and compromise, will not be misinterpreted as rejection of their criticism. However, I would wager the majority view is that the article is not 'anti-MJ' and POV-leaning, and that the tag is inappropriate. Best, A Sniper (talk) 19:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

However, Jews of all other denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism...

The trouble here is that while "Jews of all denominations" carries the implication that MJs are not Jews, "other Jews..." carries the implication that they are. We need a neutral way of saying this. Not sure what that is. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

However, with all due respect, the addition of the word other creates a fringe POV. Leaving the word out makes a factual, mainstream, non-fringe statement that Jews (Jewry, Judaism, Jewish denominations, the contemporary Jewish establishment) do not consider MJ to be Judaism but another religion, Christianity. It is perfectly valid to document that MJs believe themselves to be a part of Judaism, but equally valid to cite that this is not an accepted reality for Jews/Judaism. Adding the word other immediately spins the sentence to imply rather boldly that MJ is Judaism. Forget ones personal bias and please try and see that the only way to maintain overall neutrality is to a) allow users on the one hand to carefully and clearly document the beliefs of MJ, while at the same time b) noting without ambiguity, and with authoritative references, that Judaism as an establishment simply doesn't agree. Maybe one day it will agree (as Cohn-Sherbok maintains). This is why I feel that we have some kind of consensus at the moment among the various contributors of all persuasions. Edit warring has ceased and I would be so bold myself to state that we've actually assisted each other here. Best, A Sniper (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I have made an edit for this debate.

I believe "Rabbinical Jews of all denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism." is NPOV.

As far as I can tell... neither carries the implication that MJs are Jews... nor carries the implication that MJs are not Jews. --Carlaude 13:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

What about Karaite Jews? The addition of the word Rabbinical is what spins this article into POV. MJ supporter inigmatus has already explained the way the entire article works: by balancing sections overall. MJs believe themselves to be Jews; the entire Jewish establishment dating back to Christ do not. These are both correct statements, supported by citations. Your edit is not suppoorted by references. If you go through the history of the page, you'll see that we grappled with the header 100 different ways to strike the balance - certainly not just me. Best, A Sniper (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

You do not need to write so condescendingly Mr "Neutral".

I am already aware that MJs believe themselves to be Jews and the Jewish establishment do not.

Hence the discussion-- nay-- hence that very sentence.

Other that leaving out Karaite Jews you give no information on why you think the edit is POV or "spins this article into POV."

The intro needs balance on its own, no matter how long you though it was great before.

Lets try again-- what is wrong with "Rabbinical and Karaite Jews of all denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism."? --Carlaude 14:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't figure why you take editing Wikipedia so personally. I am not writing condescendingly to you or anyone else. In fact, I'm not sure you have read all of the posts since you started what one user characterized as perhaps Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. Nevermind. The overwhelming references state that all Jews (established Jewry and Judaism) consider MJs to not be Jewish. Period. Not some, not most - all...and back 2000 years, too. This is historical, and this is supported by the references. All the goodwill on earth cannot change that. Even the MJ supporters at this article aren't considering this POV when balanced with the article as a whole. Adding the word others or Rabbinical is what creates the POV because it flies in the face of fact. MJs consider themselves Jews - fine - Jews consider MJs as not being within Judaism - fine. There have been groups throughout history that claimed to be Jewish and were not accepted as such, and history has reflected this. MJs are no different - and this isn't meant to be POV...it is merely a reflection of the references. Best, A Sniper (talk) 14:53, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I would familiarize yourself with WP:NPA. A Sniper (talk) 14:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I am working in good faith-- that you just miss the issue-- maybe this will be more productive if you address my question and not just your issues.

You are trying to say that because the "Jewish establishment" find Messianic Judaism to be not a form of Judaism this is "a fact."

It is not a fact -- it is the point of view of the Jewish establishment -- hence "Messianic Jews are not Jews" would also be POV.

To say "all Jews think X" is POV, if Messianic Judaism "think not-X" -- because "Messianic Jews are not Jews" would also be POV.

You might think "adding the word Rabbinical" unnecessary but "adding the word Rabbinical" does not fly "in the face of fact".

I challenge you to add references that any branch of Judaism accepts MJ as a form of Judaism. That is what Wikipedia is all about - not your opinion or my opinion - but information that can be verified. Jews self-identify and have set parameters for what constitutes a Jew or something within the fold of Judaism - even MJs accept this, even if they don't agree. I'm sorry that you don't. Adding the word "Rabbinical" is spinning what is currently NPOV into POV. Your rationale for solid world Jewish opinion for the last 2000 years being merely POV is a circular argument that goes nowhere. Best, A Sniper (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

So since you have no answer for me you will just "defy" me make the article NPOV? That is really good.

Oh, I think we have already verified that Rabbinical Jews do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism.

"Jewish opinion" => "opinion" is a straightforward argument-- not circular.

Here is a circular argument...

"All" Jews agree Messianic Judaism is not part of Judaism.
Hence adherents to Messianic Judaism are not Jews.
Hence adherents to Messianic Judaism are not part of "All" Jews.
Hence "all" Jews agree Messianic Judaism is not part of Judaism.

So does anyone else have an objection that has a reason behind it?--Carlaude 18:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please focus on the editing and not the editor. Use of the word "defy" denotes you taking this all too personally. I have now answered you, as have other users - you simply do not agree with what you read. In any event, how about this: Messianic Jews consider themselves to be Jewish. However, Jews of all denominations do not consider Messianic Judaism to be a form of Judaism. Many Christians consider Messianic Judaism a form of Christianity. This is the wording that came about after lots and lots of back & forth edits by many users. Best, A Sniper (talk) 18:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

POV

This has been very clearly demonstrated. You cannot make word mean what you want them to mean.

The POV flag is an indicator that "The neutrality of this article is disputed." -- I dispute it. "Period."

The POV flag is not an indicator that that there is of consensus of POV or anything else. --Carlaude 13:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you appear to have a chip on your shoulder. It doesn't appear that there are many users who share your problems with this article, including MJs. A Sniper (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Main Discussion in other section -- Avi (talk) 19:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Removing POV Tag

By the way, I see that A Sniper-- despite a claim of neutrality-- has started trying recruiting others to remove the POV flag for him. I will not stand for this. --Carlaude 23:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I observe the revert rules. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with having others follow what is obvious: your flag and POV tone, which appears angry, isn't warranted. At some points this article has appeared like a tract, but we've worked together to make it neutral. You "will not stand for this"? I suggest you get an admin to assist. Best, A Sniper (talk) 23:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I am going to try again to stimulate discussion again, per-WP:BRD.

The POV flag cannot be reserved for people who see a page every day. It is people who see it new who can see notice POV. The POV flag is not an indicator of consensus of POV-- it is an indicator that "The neutrality of this article is disputed." by someone-- the person who put it there. --Carlaude 13:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:BRD is an essay, not policy, but here you are...as DJ Clayworth has asked, can you explain the reason that you have placed the POV and why in your opinion the article is 'anti-MJ'? Best, A Sniper (talk) 14:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

If I may, please point out in talk what specifics are POV. Some sections were created to be POV on purpose in order to balance the article as a whole. We need specifics if we hope to have a constructive re-editing of the article. inigmatus (talk) 15:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with inigmatus - we do not always agree with each other, but we strive to keep the article balanced. Best, A Sniper (talk) 18:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

See above for reasons again.

So WP:BRD is an essay not "policy." What is your point, that your word is policy? Or maybe you think the whole Messianic Judaism article has you have it is somehow "policy"? Or are you just trying to defend your disregard for it?

--Carlaude 15:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Carlaude, Wikipedia:Disruptive editing is a guideline, too. While being bold is good, this article has been the subject of intense debate and careful scrutiny for over a year now, and it is carefully laid out to achieve NPOV in the whole. Being bold is one thing, being over-bold is another. Please use the talk pages to discuss any issues you have; thanks! -- Avi (talk) 17:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Note that Inigmatus and I both have over 200 edits to this article, so we both have a pretty good handle as to the past discussions. We are not trying to derail anything you do; rather, all of us who are interested in keeping this article NPOV want to forestall the huge edit wars of the past, now that ther actually is a really good article on the topic. Thanks. -- Avi (talk) 17:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Nobody is disregarding anything,Carlaude - you have placed the tag and need to now document precisely why the article is 'anti-MJ', as is your contention. Best, A Sniper (talk) 18:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Sniper and Inigmatus. An editor who places a POV tag is expected to come to the talk page and explain what he thinks is POV about the article and how he thinks it should be improved. If he doesn't do this, it's correct to remove the tag. So far, all Carlaude has done is insist the tag belongs without explaining what he thinks is wrong with the article. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 18:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

If you go up a section you will find he has explained it. We have a divided discussion here, let's try to bring it to one place. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

new edits

I notice that there have been a group of edits by someone who appears to be involved with one segment of the MJ community - I see this by chatter on that user's talk page. It would probably be good if an editor with direct knowledge of the different groups or organizations and their positions could scrutinize the edits to make sure that information remains balanced and not slanted towards one group or the other. I placed some citation notices, for example. Best, A Sniper (talk) 04:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm working on it. I'm not always here, but for the record, feel free to know that I was the one who submitted the article for FA review because I believed the current content to be NPOV. And that, I hope, says a lot for the efforts of all involved to create a very balanced article. inigmatus (talk) 19:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

MJ as 'Christian'

A user is making an edit to the header re: many Christians considering MJ to be Christian. I have maintained that the majority MJ opinion is that they do not like to identify as 'Christian' but instead identify as Jews practicing Judaism in which they accept the Messiah as being 'Yeshua'. Is this not correct to MJ belief? To allow the new edit by the user is actually to blur the issues into something entirely different to what is there now. Best, A Sniper (talk) 19:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the edits you're talking about. All Jewish groups view MJ as a form of Christianity, rather than as a form of Judaism, and many Christians agree with this. Isn't that what it says in the header? -LisaLiel (talk) 20:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi LisaLiel. We had consensus that the header is as correct as all of the regular users could agree upon - namely that MJs see themselves as Jews, but every Jewish denomination does not. In addition, that many Christians view MJs as 'Christian'. The editor Carlaude is wanting to change this so that it is ambiguous. The user also seeks to add the word other to Jews to give the impression that MJ is a denomination of Judaism, which some of us believe to be a POV edit lacking any references. Best, A Sniper (talk) 20:35, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

No consensus.

A Sniper undid edit before anyone else-- say an MJ-- could see it and comment.

The editor Carlaude is wanting to change this so that it not ambiguous.

A Sniper is going to great efforts again (here-- for no reason) to disstort my effort and views and then claims I am taking this personally.

If MJ's consider themselves not Christian it should say so unambiguously-- or at least not imply that they do.

All MJ's I have met with admit to being Christian BUT genrally but do not bring it up that way.

If you think "MJ opinion is that they are not Christian" cite a source. In the mean time let someone else talk without alway trying to get the last word. --Carlaude 21:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The sources are already in the header. The header was written by various users with as possible a consensus that could be achieved. As you are the user who believes there is POV and an 'anti-MJ' slant to the article, state your reasons with citations to refute what is currently there. Best, A Sniper (talk) 21:33, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Can I suggest a compromise?. "Jews consider MJ to be not Jewish" has certainly been interpreted as POV, implying (at the least) that the opinion of non-MJ Jews should be taken as factual in the matter, and those of MJ ignored. "Other Jews consider..." has the same problem the other way. Is there another way of working this that reduces the offence on both sides? For example:

Non-Messianic Jews consider...
Jews (other than Messianic Jews) consider...
Jews not associated with the Messianic movement consider...

Other suggestions welcome. DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

No way. Look, the article is entitled "Messianic Judaism", reflecting MJ's self-identification. That's enough. Wikipedia is not here to accept that as true; it's here to reflect the documented facts. And the documented facts are that all of Judaism considers the J in MJ to be a misnomer. At best, a mistake, and at worst a deliberate fraud.

To refer to Jews as "other Jews" or "non-Messianics" or anything of the sort that you're suggesting is giving the MJ view far too much undue weight. An informative header needs to balance the suggestion (created by the name of the article) that MJ is indeed a form of Judaism.

The problem here is that advocates of MJ have taken the middle ground and decided to use it as an opposing position. It's a sort of "give them an inch and they'll ask for another inch" kind of thing. The consensus is as it stands, and there's no reason to change it. -LisaLiel (talk) 23:02, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

How can reporting the views of the subjects of the article be considered "undue weight". By that logic we can report in the Judaism article that "Judaism is a false religion" since that is the opinion of non-Jews, and they far outnumber Jews. DJ Clayworth (talk) 20:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

That the Jewish establishment find Messianic Judaism to be not a form of Judaism is a "documented fact" only in that it is a "documented fact" of Jewish establishment opinion.

That they find Messianic Judaism to be not a form of Judaism is still an opinion and not "documented fact."

The compromises would state "documented fact."

"All Jews, not associated with the Messianic movement, consider it not a form of Judaism."
"All Rabbtical Jews, consider it not a form of Judaism."
Etc..--Carlaude (talk) (circa) 7:05, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

LisaLiel said it all. Amen. The opening header has been worked out by users to reflect as much a compromise position as was possible. To change it to any of the (unsigned) suggestions above is to give one slant undue weight. A Sniper (talk) 05:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

So are you willing to enter WP:DR-- or anything thing else to resolve this?--Carlaude (talk) 15:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Right now there appears to be other fish to fry. You'll note that in the last few days there have been some major edits by MJs of at least a couple of different factions changing considerable doctrinal/organizational sections. As for the issue of the header, I would suggest it is a Wikipedia:DEADHORSE that only you keep bringing up. However, if you actually think there is a dispute, go ahead with WP:DR. Best, A Sniper (talk) 15:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

But just as a caveat, Carlaude, if you want to subject a consensus to DR, I'm going to bring back up the issue of whether it's appropriate to use the name "Messianic Judaism", since the only reason I (and others) dropped that issue was as part of the current consensus. -LisaLiel (talk) 16:16, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You are taking this too personally again.

Despite your efforts to declare victory from the start, misrepresent me at every chance, and efforts to avoid dialog, I will ask you again-- So are you willing to enter WP:Dispute resolution?

As you seem to not know, dispute resolution is only possible if you agree to take part-- so you have to agree or not agree. This is the first step so don't tell me again to go do Dispute resolution on my own.--Carlaude (talk) 16:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's a real dispute that needs to be resolved. There was one, but it's long since been resolved. I'm sorry you weren't here for it, but I don't think there's any need to bring things up again every time someone new drops in.

I'm sorry if that seems unfriendly. I'm not trying to be; I just don't understand what the purpose is of raising dead issues like this one. If you need an agreement to enter dispute resolution, well, you don't have it from me. It seems like a waste of time. -LisaLiel (talk) 17:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Carlaude, thanks for bringing this up. I encourage you to keep this in the talk before making an edit to the article header though, since Lisa and Sniper are correct in that the current header reflects consensus. I posted on your talk page. inigmatus (talk) 19:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)