Talk:Menaulion

Military history: Technology / Weaponry / Roman & Byzantine / Medieval

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion not met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military science, technology, and theory task force
	Weaponry task force
	Roman and Byzantine military history task force
	Medieval warfare task force (c. 500 – c. 1500)

Greece Low‑importance

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greek history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Middle Ages Low‑importance

	Middle Ages portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Middle AgesWikipedia:WikiProject Middle AgesTemplate:WikiProject Middle AgesMiddle Ages articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

...hmmm... let's have our first discussion. I know that an Osprey book (Byzantine Armies, 886-1118) calls menavlon a javelin, but truth is that it was just a heavy spear carried also by light infantry. I generally do not condone using Osprey books as resources and I have had to comment on erroneous assumptions they made many times. It is a usual mistake to call menavlon a javelin, because Nikephoros Phokas' text where he describes its length has not survived. Yet, if you read Ouranos' Taktika (which in many aspects is a copy of Praecepta Militaria), you will find its length being 1,5 to 2 orgyiai. This amounts to about 3-4 meters, which along with its unusual girth (as wide as possible for a man to hold it) makes it impossible to have been a javelin. In both works it is described being carried by javelineers also, but it is not a javelin and it is evident in even more extracts. For example Ouranos also talks about enemy menavla being smashed by the Byzantine cataphracts (a javelin would never be smashed if thrown to the advancing enemy), and Phokas urges his menavlatoi to remain still and bold and bear the shock of the enemy cavalry charge. This is also the opinion of the Osprey you mention (Byz. Infantryman), which has an interesting illustration as to the use of the menavlon.

Untitled

I will change your edits now, because I want to add text and sources, but please, do write me here your opinion and we will see whether we should offer the "javelin" hypothesis or not.

I also would like more info on Kazhdan's claims about the tip of the menavlon. I admit I have not looked up "menavlon" in his work and I would be very interested in knowing where he found this particular piece of information (I will probably in the next days, but I would appreciate a quick answer if he gives more details).

Thanks!

GK1973 (talk) 09:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell, the info on the menaulion in the ODB comes from Eric McGeer, Diptycha 4. I also agree re the javelin thing. It was obviously more a pike than a throwing weapon. Constantine ✍ 10:53, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

McGeer maintains it was a spear with a long blade, although he doesn't state how long nor does he give any more info on the source of this info (or I have just failed to find the exact point where he does...) GK1973 (talk) 11:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]