Talk:Memphis Red Sox

Holding pen

@Onagtruk: I'm placing this here for now because it is good stuff. However, it is about Memphis and the Southern League; so not appropriate for this article. Some needs to be incorporated some into Southern League of Colored Base Ballists and some possibly into Negro league baseball maybe. I will do this soon, unless you want to take the initiative. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 23:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

== The establishment of Negro baseball clubs in Memphis == Following the [[American Civil War|Civil War]], Negro baseball clubs began to form throughout the [[United States]]. Although the new clubs were mostly founded in major northern cities, Memphis saw white and black baseball clubs form in the decades following the war. The men who formed these clubs played the game in their spare time issuing challenges to rival clubs and fighting for the honor of being the best team assembled in the local areas where they played.<ref name=":0">{{cite thesis|last=McBee|first=Kurt|title=They Also Played the Game: A Historical Examination of the Memphis Red Sox Baseball Organization, 1922-1959|date=August 2001|publisher=The University of Memphis|type=PhD Dissertation}}</ref> In March of 1886 the following ad ran in several major Southern newspapers: “A call has been issued for the captains of all colored base ball clubs of Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, Alabama, and Tennessee that have a fair record and desire to enter the [[Southern League of Colored Base Ballists]] to send name and address to The Manager, Lock Box 298, Jacksonville, Florida.”<ref name=":1">{{Cite web|url=http://research.sabr.org/journals/southern-league|title=THE SOUTHERN LEAGUE OF COLORED BASE BALLISTS|website=research.sabr.org|access-date=2019-01-11}}</ref> The [[Southern League of Colored Base Ballists]] was the first all black professional baseball league.<ref name=":1" /><ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.negrosouthernleaguemuseumresearchcenter.org/Portals/0/Historical%20Timeline%20-%20Negro%20League%20Baseball.pdf|title=Negro League Baseball Historical Timeline|last=|first=|date=18 January 2019|website=www.negrosouthernleaguemuseumresearchcenter.org|archive-url=|archive-date=|dead-url=|access-date=}}</ref> Although very little is known about how many Black Americans played baseball in 1886. The creation of a league was evidence that game was popular enough to find teams able and willing to play. Two teams from Memphis entered the league, the [[Memphis Eurekas|Eurekas]] and the [[Memphis Eclipses|Eclipse]]. The Georgia Champions of Atlanta, Broads of Savannah, Lafayettes of Savannah, Fultons of Charleston, Athletics of Jacksonville, Unions of New Orleans, Florida Clippers of Jacksonville and Macedonias of Jacksonville also joined the new league. Later in the season, the Jerseys of Savannah, Roman Cities of Jacksonville, and Montgomery Blues were also mentioned in newspapers as clubs associated with the league.<ref name=":1" /> The first game of the season was played on June 16, 1886. The Unions of New Orleans played the Memphis Eclipse in New Orleans. Memphis won the game 3 to 1.<ref name=":1" /> [[The Times-Picayune|The New Orleans Times-Picayune]] newspaper reported that after watching the game, “…colored clubs will furnish good sport, and the teams can play ball… The Eclipse boys all field well and threw the ball like the best professionals.”<ref name=":2">{{Cite book|title=A Complete History of the Negro Leagues, 1884 to 1955|last=Ribowsky|first=Mark|publisher=Birch Lane Press|year=1995|isbn=1-55972-283-5|location=New York, New York|pages=20-21}}</ref> In August the [[The Commercial Appeal|Memphis Appeal]] newspaper reported that the Eurekas and the Eclipse ball clubs were “champion colored clubs.”<ref name=":0" /> Both teams boasted men of ability and talent. Pointter, Robert Higgins, and William Renfroe were all players from Memphis that would later join white minor league clubs before [[Baseball color line|baseball became fully segeragated]]. Renfroe, a pitcher for the Memphis Eclipse, averaged twelve strikeouts per game and won eight out of nine games he pitched. The average strike out rate for the white professional leagues during the same time frame was just greater than two per game.<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/pitch.shtml|title=Major League Baseball Pitching Year-by-Year Averages|website=Baseball-Reference.com|language=en|access-date=2019-01-11}}</ref> The Southern League of Colored Base Ballists folded after it first year of play.<ref name=":2" /><ref name=":1" /><ref name=":0" /> There are no records of who won the league’s inagrual season. The Memphis Appeals report of “champion color clubs” seems more of a boast by a city proud of its ball clubs than an actual report on league status.<ref name=":1" /> With no formal African-American Leagues, there is little known about the Black teams who played in Memphis between 1887 thru 1921. In 1908 the [[Nashville Globe]] newspaper reported that the [[Nashville Standard Giants]] played the Memphis Unions. The paper referred to the team as “the crack base ball organization of this city.”<ref name=":0" /> The Bluff City Base Ball Club of Memphis is mentioned 1909 as one of the “Prominent Colored Base Ball Clubs in the United States.”<ref name=":0" /> The Nashville Globe also reported that, [[Leland Giants|Franks Leland’s Chicago Giants]] played the Memphis Giants in 1909.<ref name=":0" /> The Memphis Tigers appeared in a few newspaper reports in 1911.<ref name=":0" /> As the United States entered [[World War I]], most Memphis ball clubs disbanded.<ref name=":0" />

Continuity issues

I was hoping for some clarification on some league continuity issues, since some of you sources are books I don't have access to. This source ([1]) has the Red Sox starting in 1920 as an associate team to the NSL, and then a full member from 1921–23, etc., rather than starting in 1922.

This source ([2]) doesn't list them playing in 1960. You quote your source as dissolving in May 1960, but did they play any games? In that case, their last season would be 1959.

I appreciate your efforts and look forward to feedback. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 00:19, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Resolution

@Bison X: I understand the removal. I can divide the information and place the related information in Southern League of Colored Base Ballists. The rest of it I'll save and if I find an appropriate place for it I can add it there. The update to the SLCBB will take a little time as I will have to modify the information a little to fit in the article. As for the dates the team played... the doctoral dissertation by Kurt McBee uses announcements and articles in the Commercial Appeal, the local Memphis newspaper at the time as his source of the formation of the team. This conflicts with the source you list. I decided to go with McBee's as the source for the date since all of his information was clearly sourced. As to the matter of the teams dissolution, you are correct that they did not play games in the 1960 season. They sold Martins stadium the year before and Russwood Park stadium where they planned to play burned down prior to the start of the season which put them and the Memphis Chicks out of a home. Technically they played there last game in 1959 and I'll change the date to reflect that. Thanks for you input. --Onagtruk(Onagtruk (talk) 18:27, 28 January 2019 (UTC))

I appreciate your feedback. Regarding the 1920 or 22 formation, you say the dissertation is well sourced, using announcements/articles in the CA, but that research was in 2001. The CNLBR has been doing ongoing research into 2018 to uncover the Red Sox were in fact an associate team in the NSL for 1920 and a full member in 1921. See here (on page 5) for 1921 standings from the The Daily Times. Either way, you're doing good work on the article, so I'll leave it to you for now. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 08:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

@Bison X: I understand your concern. The article from the The Daily Times doesn't specifically state that the team from Memphis was the Red Sox. With that said, I will endeavor to find definite proof one way or the other via the actual news releases or other historical documentation. Thank you for your feedback and feel free to contact me as I add to this article. (Onagtruk (talk) 19:14, 1 February 2019 (UTC))

Here are the rosters for the Red Sox which might help.

1921 & 1922 Memphis rosters

1921 (p.12-13) MEMPHIS RED SOX Played at Fay Avenue Park and Russwood Park. W. P. Martin, club official Miller, manager by August ++++ Andrews, ss-3b George “Jew Baby” Bennette, lf Billings, p Blackman, p Blackwell, p Bowman, lf-3b Breakly (Breakby), p Brown, 2b Cox, 3b Crawford, rf Dykes, c Glass, 1b-lf Grimes, c Huey, 2b-ss Jones, p Leader, c Martin, rf-lf McCrary, rf Juanello Mirabel, rhp, also with Birmingham Ralph Moore, p Morris, c Moss, 3b Pippen, p Reid, 3b-ss Riley, p Robinson (Roberson), lhp Rogers, c; Calvin Rodgers, p Rodgers, ss Rollie, cf Sharp, 3b Sutton, c Trim, 1b Williams, c-1b-2b 1922 (p. 19-20) MEMPHIS RED SOX Played at Russwood Park and Fields Park. R. A. Lewis, club official J.Miller, manager? Chick Cummings, manager ++++ Bateman, p; C. Beard, 3b-ss-2b William “Kid” Billings,, p-lf Buford, f-cf Burney, ss Clay Carpenter, cf-lf John “Red” Charleston, c, also with Montgomery Clay, cf Cooper, p Cooper, c Cooper, rf-lf Johnny Cunningham, 2b, also with Montgomery Marion “Red” Cunningham, 1b, also w/ Mntgmry Carl Glass, lhp-lf Green, c Green, 1b-2b-ss William Griffin, 1b Hamilton, c Eppie Hampton, c H.Hampton, c J.Hampton, c L.Hampton, 1b-2b-ss-3b Jones, p Lee, 2b Lewis, c William “Kid”Lowe, ss, also with Nashville Mason, p, ex-B’ham; Ralph “Squire Moore, rhp-rf, also w/Nshv & NO Garrett Norman, rf Rea, lf Robertson, p C.Robinson, p “Home Run” Ro(d)gers, lf-rf-c-ss, also w/Knoxv John Henry Russell, 3b-ss Sharp, rf C.Spearman, rf William Spearman, rf; Norman “Turkey” Stearnes, lf W.Tee, 1b; R. E. Williams, lf Young, p, also with Birmingham and Nashville

Judging from this, I would say they possibly just changed ownership/management. If that is the case, I would still suggest they be considered as the same franchise, for the purpose of this article. See St. Louis Giants for example. Not fully convinced one way or the other at the moment, however. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 02:26, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

@Bison X:I think you are right. Today I spent a couple hours on-line looking through old newspapers. I found this from a article in the Tennessean newspaper out of Nashville. "ELITE GIANTS WILL PLAY MEMPHIS: The Nashville Elite Giants will meet the Memphis Red Sox today in a series of four games beginning today in the dell." The same paper list them as the Red Sox again on August 3rd. Also after reviewing the thesis by McBee, his references from the Commercial Appeal are from the April time frame. McBee talks about how the Commercial Appeal did not cover the Memphis team later in the year. I'll have to go in and change the Founding section. I'll do some more research, but the team did come into being in 1921. Based on the rooster that you posted it appears that a change of ownership or management occurred.(Onagtruk (talk) 03:31, 4 February 2019 (UTC))

After looking though several more newspapers I finally found a reference to A. P. Martin's team. They were called the "A. P. Martin's Barber College Team" The Chicago Tribune has a short notice in the April 11, 1921 paper that states that the Barber College Team was beaten by the Chicago American Giants. More interesting though is a article from the Hot Springs New Era on August 14, 1920 which announces a five game series against the Vapor City Tigers dubbed the "championship of the south". This "championship" appear to be a promotional gimmick. The article goes on to state that, "The Memphis club has beat everything in Alabama and Tennessee and the Tigers have done the same thing in Arkansas and Texas." This is of value because now we know that the Barber College Team was in operation by at least 1920. It makes the inconsistency of the Memphis Red Sox being called an associate team to the NSL easier to reconcile.(Onagtruk (talk) 20:53, 7 February 2019 (UTC))

Porter Moss

@Onagtruk: Good progress on the article, but the section on Porter Moss is off-topic for this article. I would recommend creating an article for Porter Moss and leaving only a mention in this article in the "Notable players" section. Rgrds. --Bison X (talk) 04:02, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

@Bison X: Thanks again for the feedback. I see your point. I'll make the changes to the page and set up a page for Porter Moss as time allows.Onagtruk (talk) 01:14, 26 April 2019 (UTC)