Talk:Melungeon/Archive 4
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Paul Heinegg
Does anyone know why he is referenced so many times in this article which is about Melungeons? Or why he is references for saying Melungeons was white women who married africans?
I have tried to find the Melungeon families in his books but was unable to find any except for Joshua Perkins which was just a assumed Melungeon with no ties to any f the other families.
DNA tests on the Perkins mentioned showed their male line was European not African Esther Perkins 1710-1748 Unknown Origin I1 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/coremelungeon/default.aspx?section=yresults
I2 covers over 6 percent of Portugal DNA also.
The DNA marker for this family was I-M253 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Parkins-Perkins/default.aspx?section=ysnp
"In human genetics, Haplogroup I-M253 is a Y chromosome haplogroup which occurs at greatest frequency in Fenno-Scandia. The mutations identified with Haplogroup I-M253 (Y-DNA) are M253, M307, P30, and P40. These are known as single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). It is a subclade of Haplogroup I. Before a reclassification in 2008,[1] the group was known as Haplogroup I1a. The group displays a very clear frequency gradient, with a peak of approximately 40 percent among the populations of western Finland and more than 50 percent in the province of Satakunta,[2] and around 38 percent in Sweden as a whole, with a peak of 52 percent in Västra Götaland County in central Sweden.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253_%28Y-DNA%29
So clearly this family does not support the African man having offspring with white woman which the person adding this into the wikipedia page clearly tried to show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.86 (talk) 11:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Here is the references in question:
"She and Paul Heinegg have found historical documentation in court records, land deeds and other materials showing that most Melungeon ancestors were free people of color, descended from marriages and unions between working-class European-American women (making them free at birth) and men of African descent.
Heinegg traced the Joshua Perkins family of Johnson County, Tennessee and its descendants, finding that successive generations of the family married white or mulatto people, which led to increasingly European-American or white appearance and proportion of ancestry among their descendants.[3]
Paul Heinegg has traced free people of color families in the censuses of 1790–1810 for Virginia and the Carolinas, and found that most were descended from people of color who were free in Virginia in colonial times. They were mostly the descendants of working-class white women (who were indentured servants or free) and African men (free, indentured servants or slaves). A minority were descended from slaves who had been manumitted, some as early as the seventeenth century.[3]
Beginning in 1995, the researcher Paul Heinegg has published documentation of numerous families of free people of color in the Upper South, whose ancestors were free in colonial Virginia before the American Revolutionary War. His historic research found that most such families in the censuses of 1790-1810 in North Carolina and Virginia, including numerous ones now identified as Melungeon ancestors, could be traced to free descendants of unions between white women and African men in colonial Virginia.[3]"
I followed the reference links but I did not see anyone but Joshua Perkins, I also did not see the word Melungeon mentioned in the reference. So I was just wondering if who ever added these references could find the Melungeon families in the rference link and also show where they was showed as descendants of African men and white women to please reply to this with those referenes please. We should keep this page about Melungeons specifically instead of just a page about anyone who was listed as "free person of color" and also keep this page free of editor's personal theories and agendas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.86 (talk) 10:53, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
- The individuals were not generally listed as Melungeon in historic records. What Heinegg did was trace numerous families listed in the 1790-1810 censuses, back through the generations and check them against various historical documents to find their origins, mostly in VA. His book has families listed by name. Some branches of those families in TN and KY have been identified as Melungeon by researchers - families with surnames of Bunch, Goins, Collins, etc. as listed in this article. I can't repeat all the work that Virginia DeMarce and Paul Heinegg did. The editor above appears to be picking and choosing material from a variety of sources - it is nearly impossible to respond to this. Parkwells (talk) 03:58, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
It has been 3 days with no reply to this yet with the references of melungeon people and the Paul heinegg reference links, if Paul Heinegg's references and links can not be showed to be relating to the Melungeon people then Paul Heinegg should be removed from the Melungeon article and moved over to a wikipedia page for free people of color or some type of page that the references does relate to directly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.86 (talk) 09:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Another reference using Paul Heinegg for this article was this
"The origin of the mixed-race families later to be called "Melungeons" was mostly the unions among the working classes in the Chesapeake Bay region in the 17th and 18th centuries. Indentured servants, slaves and free workers lived and worked closely together, leading to marriages and unions. According to the principle of partus sequitur ventrem, which Virginia incorporated into law in 1662, children were assigned the social status of their mother, regardless of their father's ethnicity or citizenship. This meant that the children of slave mothers were born into slavery. But it also meant that the children of white women, even if fathered by enslaved African men, were born free. The free descendants of such unions formed many of the oldest free families of color. Early colonial Virginia was very much a "melting pot" of peoples, but not all of these early multiracial families were ancestral to the later Melungeons. Over the generations, most individuals of the group called Melungeon were of European and African descent, whose ancestors had been free in colonial Virginia.[3]
A commonly held myth about the Melungeons of east Tennessee was that they were an indigenous people of Appalachia who lived there before the arrival of the first white settlers. Instead, scholars have documented by a variety of historic records that the earliest Melungeon ancestors migrated from Virginia, as did their Anglo-American neighbors. Paul Heinegg has traced free people of color families in the censuses of 1790–1810 for Virginia and the Carolinas, and found that most were descended from people of color who were free in Virginia in colonial times. They were mostly the descendants of working-class white women (who were indentured servants or free) and African men (free, indentured servants or slaves). A minority were descended from slaves who had been manumitted, some as early as the seventeenth century.[3]"
I again looked thru the reference given and did not see the reference mentioning Melungeons or tracing Melungeons to the bay. In fact there has never been any records showing Melungeon ancesters in the Bay. So it is unclear why Paul Heinegg is being used in this article that is about "Melungeons". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.86 (talk) 10:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Yet Another Paul Heinegg reference I found in this article
"The historian C. S. Everett hypothesized that John Collins the Sapony Indian, recorded as being expelled from Orange County, Virginia about January 1743, might be the same man as the Melungeon ancestor John Collins, classified as a "mulatto" in 1755 North Carolina records. But Everett has revised that theory after having discovered evidence that these were two different men named John Collins. Only the latter man, identified as mulatto in the 1755 record in North Carolina, has any proven connection to the Melungeons.[23]"
I followed the reference and again found nothing there that states what was stated for the reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.86 (talk) 10:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
It has been 7 days since and still no one has showed where melungeon is mentioned in the paul heinegg references or any Melungeon names except for the one bolton family (which paul heinegg's reference was unable to say who his actual parents was ad the dna showed the male bolton line to be european). No one has showed why Paul Heinegg was used for a reference for C.S. Everett, etc etc If no one can show these references pertaining to "Melungeons" then Paul Heinegg needs to be removed from the article. I mean this is a wikipedia page for "Melungeons". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.165.246 (talk) 09:02, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
It has now been 11 days and still no one has posted supporting the paul heinnegg sources and references for the Melungeon page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.165.246 (talk) 06:03, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
It has now been 18 days without anyone being able to show reasons for the Paul Heinegg references to be used in the Melungeon page. I would say that after 21 days without anyone showing reasons to keep Paul Heinegg references in the page the references should be removed and not added back till proof has been showed that EACH reference pertains directly to identified Melungeons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 21:04, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
References are unclear and faulty
The following material does not refer to DNA testing and is inappropriate to be included in that section. It refers to concepts from physical anthropology and blood testing that are no longer accepted as valid for trying to assess ethnic characteristics:
- "In 1969 Dr. William Sprott took 182 genetic samples directly from Newman's Ridge while following the Chain of custody Procedure (this is required for genetics to be legal evidence) and using proven Melungeon descendants of Newman's ridge, the outcome of that genetic study was as follows: {Note: The article says nothing about "chain of custody" and this was not for DNA material.)
"Of hair form and color observed in 182 persons, 120 was straight, fifty-five were wavy-curly, and seven were kinky; eighty-five were brown, sixty-five were black, twenty were blond, and twelve were grey or white. The Gene Frequencies for blood factors in our sample of Melungeons suggest a people who are about ninety percent white, almost ten percent Indian, and relatively little Negro in their origin." "The Physical Anthropology and Genetics of Marginal People of the southeastern United States", William S. Pollitzer, University of North Carolina, American Anthropologist Vol. 74, Issue 3, Pages 729-730 June 1972[1] This article predates the use of DNA analysis for genetic testing and is not about DNA testing. Parkwells (talk) 03:46, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
This is about Genetics, it took it's samples directly from Newman's ridge itself, it did not include self identified melungeons, it followed the chain of custody procedure which allows findings to be used as genetic evidence in court cases which is unlike the Jogg article's family tree dna samples which used a mail order DNA company that does not use Chain of custody which makes the findings of the Jogg article not legal evidence in courts of law. The 1969 study had taken samples from people who was alive in the 1800's....out of 182 people living on Newman's ridge's hair samples only 7 was kinky....the families on newman's ridge married back and forth among each other and anyone who looks at their family tree's will see this, also unlike the Jogg article, this 1969 study was discussed by the Docter himself, the people with the Jogg article never interviewed or talked to thepeople who actually tested the DNA, the people with the Joggg article never seen the donors in person, while the 1969 study had direct face to face contact with every donor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 09:39, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I shall also add this to this section
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKvLC76LZkw
In that video you can hear Wayne Winkle himself being interview about what HIS DNA showed and what the other Melungeon people's DNA showed and he stated clearly the majority had turkish DNA and that his own DNA was Turkish. You shall remember the name Wayne Winkler because he was interviewed in the huffington post article about the Jogg report.
Wayne Winkler claims he is from the Bunch family of Sneedville, here is the Sneedville Bunch family DNA results
Samuel Bunch, b. ca. 1814, d. June 2, 1865, Sneedville, Tennessee Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b4
Here is another issue with the Jogg article's DNA donors
Benjamin Collins, 1800, Hancock Co. Tn. Unknown Origin E1b1a Benjamin Collins United States R1b1a2
Same person with two different DNA findings and even more interesting is there is other people who claim they are from this same Benjamin Collins and their DNA showed yet another Haplogroup. Clearly a person can not have more than one Haplogroup yet according to the Melungeon DNA project that was ran by Jack Goins.....shows for the first time in history a man can have more than one DNA Haplogroup O.o We also have the fact that the Melungeon DNA project to date has not stated who these donors are that was used for the JOGG article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 10:33, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Additions in DNA section
The additions in the DNA section mix content from anecdotal material and more academic studies. The original sources need to be shown - Yates' article, for instance, does not appear to be peer-reviewed and jumps from one topic to another. It is not clear if it was published anywhere but on the Melungeon website, which does not make it an RS according to Wikipedia.Parkwells (talk) 03:46, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXyW0Y85lho
That is from this TV station
Here is video from the St. George Family History Expo in March 2011 which featured Donald Yates and his Genetic research on Melungeons, the person interviewed is: Holly T. Hansen : President of Family History Expos, Inc. Through Family History Expos, Holly has helped thousands understand the techniques and technology to trace their roots in today's ever-changing technological environment. She received a B.A. in History from Weber State University and continues to dedicate time to education on a daily basis. She is also an author, lecturer, former editor of Everton's Genealogical Helper magazine, and editor of the 10th and 11th editions of the Handybook for Genealogists. http://www.familyhistoryexpos.com/viewevent/index/60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g51UwUxKOZY
Donald Yates has been on history channel numerous times for his Genetics research such as the Documentry called "The Lost Civilizations of North America".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnGygY2FwJc
He has also been on Numerous Jewish TV shows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78oSRABEhp0
Here is Yates' own Wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Panther-Yates
The people who was included in Yate's DNA study was as follows: Participants were qualified by their genealogies and included many names familiar to those who follow Melungeon genealogy discussion groups on the Internet, including Brent Kennedy, author of the book 1996 book that started the Melungeon Movement, his brother Richard Kennedy; Elizabeth Hirschman, a native of Kingsport, Tenn., along with several members of her family; Wayne Winkler of the Melungeon Heritage Association and author of Walking Toward the Sunset; and Nancy Morrison, creator of the online Melungeon Health referral service. http://dnaconsultants.com/_blog/DNA_Consultants_Blog/post/Melungeon_Riddle_Solved_by_Autosomal_DNA_Project/
Yates also named all the people who supplied their DNA which is unlike those that supplised their DNA for the JOGG article which does not name any of the DNA suppliers.
Yate's DNA research article was co authored by: Professor Hirschman who has has published over 200 journal articles and academic papers in marketing, consumer behavior, sociology, psychology and semiotics. She is past President of the Association for Consumer Research and American Marketing Association-Academic Division. Professor Hirschman was named one of the Most Cited Researchers in Economics and Business by the Institute for Scientific Information in 2009; this recognition is given to the top .5% of scholars in a given field. http://business.rutgers.edu/faculty-research/directory/hirschman-elizabeth
The research was Peer reviewed and published in:
Appalachian Journal, founded in 1972, is an interdisciplinary, peer-reviewed quarterly featuring field research, interviews, and other scholarly studies of history, politics, economics, culture, folklore, literature, music, ecology, and a variety of other topics, as well as poetry and reviews of books, films, and recordings dealing with the region of the Appalachian mountains.
http://appjournal.appstate.edu/
under the name ""Toward a Genetic Profile of Melungeons in Eastern Tennessee". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 08:52, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Delete quote that does not apply
The editor of many notes above, who has not adopted an identifier name, added a quote by Goins in the DNA section about verifying some census data. This is from an article that was written long before the DNA study, and does not apply to that study, so I deleted it. Parkwells (talk) 03:46, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
The website is owned and edited by Jack Goins himself and Jack Goins was who ran the Melungeon DNA project in the Jogg article and is still currently edited by Jack Goins and includes Jack Goins' ancestry thru his own words, Jack Goins' DNA was the focus in the Newspaper articles about the Jogg article which makes it relevant to the Jogg article and relevant to the Melungeon DNA project and it also shows how the Melungeon DNA project was using people who was never identified as Melungeons in the study. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 09:04, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I'll take this alittle bit further and add this, Jack Goins is in the Article abot the Jogg report holding a picture of the Minor family which was on his mother's line.
ZACHARIAH2 MINOR (HEZEKIAH1) was born 1798 in Rockingham County, North Carolina, and died March 10, 1872 in Kyles Ford, Tennessee. He married AGGIE SIZEMORE October 18, 1824. She was born July 29, 1803 in Tennessee, and died 1870 in Hawkins County, Tennessee.
Those Sizemore's YDNA came back as Native American which you can see here:
http://www.sizemorednaproject.com/DNAindex.html
After two separate juries ruled Wiatt Collins and Zachariah Minor not guilty the state of Tennessee dropped the charges for illegal voting by Solomon, Levi, Ezekial, and Andrew Collins and later dropped charges on Lewis Minor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 09:59, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Two cites are the same
Two cites actually refer to the same article (5/24/12) by Travis Loller, an AP reporter, which were published under different headlines in Yahoo News and Huffington Post, about the 2012 paper that was published in the Journal of Genetic Genealogy. I'm going to use the cite from the Huffington Post, to limit confusion. He notes that this was a peer-reviewed study. Parkwells (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Two articles by Donald N. Yates
Two articles by Yates have been cited as sources, but they present problems. The first, "DNA Fingerprinting to Discover Your Ancestors", is undated, appears on the Melungeon website without reference to publication in a peer-reviewed journal, and has no footnotes, although references are listed. The article is breezy and anecdotal, presenting myth as fact (e.g., "By all accounts, Melungeons were there when English settlers arrived"...) All accounts do not agree that Melungeons were in Appalachia when other European-American settlers arrived. So this appears to be a questionable source. He claims Cooper as a Melungeon surname, but it is not on the core list.Parkwells (talk) 05:20, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- Yates refers to several other names, also not on the core list, and quickly suggests that most are Spanish or Portuguese, including Tolliver, and that Kennedy, is Turkish. A quick Google search does not support the assertion about the Kennedy surname, which is commonly designated as Irish. None of this discussion is footnoted. As it happens, it is documented that Tolliver in the colonies came from an Italian musician, Tagliaferro, who served in the court of Queen Elizabeth. His descendants later went from England to Virginia, where the name became anglicized, changing to Taliaferro and Tolliver. Another Tagliaferro line was from an Italian sea captain, who left a Scottish lass pregnant. She settled in Virginia, where she named their son Taliaferro Craig (his namesake descendants were called Tolliver Craig), and he was the patriarch of sons who became Baptist preachers in Fredericksburg, VA before the American Revolution. Parkwells (talk) 05:31, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- Yates is not a scientist; he has a doctorate in classical studies. He owns a company that does genetic analysis, according to the preface of the article in Appalachian Journal. His co-author, Elizabeth Hirschman, is a marketing professor.Parkwells (talk) 06:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
The reporter also stated this " who are genealogists but not academic" in fact in that article Jack Goins stated he was a Melungeon yet on Jack Goins own website he states he can not trace his family to Melungeons. http://www.jgoins.com/maybe_melungeon.htm
I shall also add this here "Jack Goins with an 1898 portrait of his step-great-great grandfather, George Washington Goins" that is from the Jogg report's newspaper article in huffington post....note where it says "step".....step parents is not genetic parents....you can not dna test yourself to find your step parent's dna. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 10:02, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Goins DNA study
The family surnames accepted into this study and the reasons for it are defined in the article. An editor has tried to pick out only names identified by Dromgoole, but much research has been done since then. An editor cannot focus only on those names.Parkwells (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
If there is other names called Melungeon then please reply with those names and a source to where they was called Melungeons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 08:28, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
We can only use names that are historically called Melungeon. Other wise anyone can start calling themself Melungeon and then everyone's DNA etc can be used...this article is about historically recognized Melungeons. Even Valentine collins was included in the DNA project even though Valentine never lived with Melungeons...only live din Tennessee 5 years...never married Melungeon families...never was called Melungeon...never was traced to Melungeons...he was simply included because some people thought he may be the brother of Vardy Collins however after DNA was done it was found that he was not the brother of Vardy Collins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 08:59, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
- It appears that among those who may identify as Melungeon descendants, two different groups (or 3, if the Jones study is included), have had DNA testing. The Yates group are 40 people who self-identified. There is little point in arguing about the results of these tests, as they were conducted on different groups of people.Parkwells (talk) 19:35, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Actually the Jogg article aka Family tree dna study never named any of the participants, and family tree DNA is keeping the names non public. The people who reviewed the Jogg article never even got the names of participants.
However if you look at the names on the Yates study where the names was actually given also "Participants were qualified by their genealogies"...you will see names associated with the Jogg media article like Wayne Winkler
"It's sometimes embarrassing to see the lengths your ancestors went to hide their African heritage, but look at the consequences" said Wayne Winkler, past president of the Melungeon Heritage Association. "They suffered anyway because of the suspicion." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/melungeon-dna-study-origin_n_1544489.html
Wayne Winkler claims his Melungeon ancestry thru the Bunch family of Sneedville, Tenn.
247883 Samuel Bunch, b. ca. 1814, d. June 2, 1865, Sneed Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b4 154690 Samuel Bunch, b. ca. 1814 and d. June 2, 1865 Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b4 http://www.familytreedna.com/public/coremelungeon/default.aspx?section=yresults
This is the only Bunch family for Sneedville, Tennessee aka Newman's ridge. No other Bunches was called melungeons except those that was in Sneedville, Tennessee
Wayne Winkler is president of the Melungeon Heritage Association and author of Walking Toward the Sunset: The Melungeons of Appalachia (2004, Mercer University Press). http://melungeon.ning.com/forum/topics/2005-winkler-article-on-jean-patterson-bible-s-study-of
Jack Goins by the way was Vice president of the Melungeon Heritage association.... in this video you can see Jack and Wayne standing by each other.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrM_3nC6GFc
Here is Wayne Winkler being interviewed and telling what his own DNA came out to be, notice no mention of African. You will also notice Brent and Richard Kennedy in this video also. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKvLC76LZkw
Now on to the others in Yate's study, William Collins, Mary Goodman, Pat Goin Jones......I'm sure you recognize these families from the Jogg article. 210660 Obadiah Goodman 1770-1839 KY and TN Unknown Origin R1b1a2 154495 Alfred Goodman, 1828-1898 Unknown Origin R1b1a2
Brent Kennedy and Richard Kennedy was in Yate's DNA study Here is Brent Kennedy and Wayne Winkler interviewed by the Turkish news media http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-JIuC1yaVQ
Here is the trailer for the Documentry film "Melungeon voices" which features Brent Kennedy, Wayne Winkler, Jack Goins, and Shepard gibson/Vardy Collins' descendant "Seven Gibson" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO0UOsp-NZ8
87771 Vardy Collins b 1764 Unknown Origin R1a1a 87768 Shepherd Gibson d. 1842 Hawkins Co. TN Unknown Origin R1b1a2
Now on to the term "Self identified Melungeons", it is the self identified melungeons who show as African and here is examples for both yates and the jogg article
Nancy Morrison (in the yates dna test) came back as african genetics. Openly admits being a self identified Meungeon.
" I believe my Melungeon connections come through the Collins line but have never been able to connect Will COLLINS to any other Collins line." As a side note, Johnson county Collins are descendants of Valentine Collins who was in the JOGG Article. http://www.dnacommunities.com/cgi-bin/forums/gforum.cgi?post=251;search_string=stewart;guest=1019625
Jack Goins (In the Jogg study) came back african and openly admits being a self identified melungeon "Hopefully locating and indexing the Hawkins County records 1795-1850 will answer some of these questions and I can remove this ‘maybe Melungeon’ label from my Goins family." Jack Goins also told the huffington post his Goins line was thru a Step Grandfather. http://www.jgoins.com/maybe_melungeon.htm
"Jack Goins with an 1898 portrait of his step-great-great grandfather, George Washington Goins" "Goins and his fellow researchers – who are genealogists but not academics" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/melungeon-dna-study-origin_n_1544489.html
Another Self identified Melungeon line was tha of Valentine Collins, was included in the JOGG article yet was never named a Melungeon in any record nor married into any Melungeon lines nor did any of his family, before DNA people claimed he was the brother to Vardy Collins while other claimed he was the son of Vardy Collins and thus he became a self identified Melungeon,
"valentine collins was my ggggrandfather he was married to dicey . i cant find her madian name. vardemon collins was his father. he was born in north carolina 1764 . valentine was born in1780" http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.collins/5029/mb.ashx
133254 Valentine Collins, b.@1786, Wilkes Co., NC Unknown Origin E1b1a 87771 Vardy Collins b 1764 Unknown Origin R1a1a
Clearly unrelated....and again shows where the self identified Melungeons come back as African while the historical melungeons come back as non African.
Here is family trees on Valentine Collins who was in the Jogg article...notice the mixing of birth dates and also notice how no where in them he has a historical record of being Melungeon nor having his family marry into Melungeon families.
http://www.geni.com/people/Valentine-Collins/6000000003573703289
"Valentine's family, having immigrated from Hawkins County, Tennessee, was probably of Mulungeon origin and it is possible that William Collins of Wise County Virginia was also." http://www.michaelh53.com/genealogy/collins/patrickcollins.htm
Benjamin Collins was named a Melungeon in historical records however....the JOGG study included two people who both claim to be the true descendant of Ben Collins yet one came back European and one came back African (the one with the question mark)
- 87510 Benjamin Collins R1b1a2
- 117395 Benjamin Collins, 1800 (born?), Hancock Co., TN E1b1a
This next one was included in the JOGG article and the huffington post article "The study quotes from an 1874 court case in Tennessee in which a Melungeon woman's inheritance was challenged. If Martha Simmerman were found to have African blood, she would lose the inheritance."
This family never married into any other Melungeon families and was on no historical records as a melungeon, in the court case it was "assumed" this family was melungeon however this family did win their supreme court case, the only Bolton DNA in the JOGG project was as follows (Leonard Bolden was used for Martha Simmerman's family DNA) 205794 Leonard B. Bolden, 1844 - 1890, GA Unknown Origin R1b1a2a1a1b3c1
"In another lawsuit in 1855, Jacob Perkins, who is described as "an East Tennessean of a Melungeon family," sued a man who had accused him of having "negro blood.""
This court case here Jacob Perkins did lose, the judge said if Jacob could show his direct male line was European in Origin he would win his lawsuit, his direct male line DNA was included in the JOGG study and it came back as European not African. (Again this family never married into any other families in the JOGG study or any other Melungeon named families) 218793 Esther Perkins 1710-1748 Unknown Origin I1
I could go on and on showing how Self identified Melungeons come back as African while historically named Melungeons come back as non African. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.170.68 (talk) 05:14, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
A Typical Melungeon
The picture of the "Typical Melungeon" is Calloway Collins who was sketched by the artist who accompanied Will Allen Dromgoole in 1890. The caption below the picture states his gandpa was full blooded Cherokee and Ms Dromgoole does not doubt it and in fact she reports the records have 'been written down" Perhaps someone could add the identity to the picture. Documenter08 (talk) 12:36, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
A Typical Melungeon
The picture of the "Typical Melungeon" is Calloway Collins who was sketched by the artist who accompanied Will Allen Dromgoole in 1890. The caption below the picture states his gandpa was full blooded Cherokee and Ms Dromgoole does not doubt it and in fact she reports the records have 'been written down" Perhaps someone could add the identity to the picture. A link to the article http://historical-melungeons.com/wad1890.pdf Documenter08 (talk) 12:39, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
| Not about article improvement |
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| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Keep all DNA studies togetherLet's keep material on DNA studies together - they have all been done since 2000. Please include size of sample group and how testing was done - whether direct-line maternal/paternal testing, as in two studies, or autosomal testing. Not enough information is provided on the Guthrie study to understand its parameters.Parkwells (talk) 21:59, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
It is quite clear you are non stop attacking anything that does not fit into your afrocentric writings. You was asked any many many times to show where them reference links you keep using in this article that goes to Paul Heinegg has Melungeons specifically named. Because it is not there. The Guthrie study...used not only blood samples but also hair samples. I like how you forget to mention the hair sample part :) Since the hair samples also does not fit into the Afrocentric myth you keep trying to make into truth in this article. Are you sure you are not paul heinegg? because you talk alot like him I must say. His typing style is alot like yours also and you are determined to have all of Paul's stuff added to this and anything that goes against Melungeons being anything buy black removed. Just saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 10:16, 12 March 2013 (UTC) DNA Consultants and YatesI just posted this to WP:FTN but as it's very relevant here, I'll copy it here: You may wonder why I'm calling this fringe when you look at the article. There's nothing obviously fringe there, or in the article of the founder, Donald Panther-Yates. But a look at their blog tells a very different story. The entry "Giants with Double-Rowed Teeth, Flattened Heads and Six Fingers"[1] is clearly fringe, and Yates is bringing out a new book The Cherokee Anomaly: How DNA, Ancient Alphabets and Religion Explain America's Largest Indian Nation, published by McFarland & Co. next year, with an introductory note by Cyclone Covey, foreword by Richard Mack Bettis. It "uncovers the Jewish and Eastern Mediterranean ancestry of the Cherokee and reveals that they originally spoke Greek before adopting the Iroquoian language of their Haudenosaunee allies while the two nations dwelt together in the Ohio Valley."[2]. See also its own website[3] and sadly, Betti's forward,[4], full of misinformation. The upshot of this is that I don't think Yates should be used here at all, or DNA Consultants. Dougweller (talk) 21:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Actually over 6 sources was given to you...now you start a whole new section again justto act as if you never was given sources. Donald yates has been featured on the history channel numerous times, his DNA study on the melungeon was scientifically reviewed. You was asked numerous times to show where Melungeons was specifically named in Paul Heinegg's references that you used to add Paul to this article however instead of being able to do that...you have started trying to get everything that goes against your afrocentric mythology for the Melungeon people removed. All you had to do was scroll up thru the earlier posts where that has clearly already been discussed you will see the numerous sources. Instead you just make a new section and try to start this all over again. When are you going to post where Melungeons are specifically named in the Paul Heinegg references you conitue to use in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 10:09, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
" Appalachian Journal - A Regional Studies Review Appalachian Journal, founded in 1972, is an interdisciplinary, peer-reviewed quarterly featuring field research, interviews, and other scholarly studies of history, politics, economics, culture, folklore, literature, music, ecology, and a variety of other topics, as well as poetry and reviews of books, films, and recordings dealing with the region of the Appalachian mountains. " http://appjournal.appstate.edu/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 10:37, 12 March 2013 (UTC) Now if you want to see other DNA stuff Yates did...which by the way was on the history channel...he had dna tested central band of cherokee also....History channel checked his dna results and agreed with it also. here is donald yatesagain featured on history channel for dna haplo group x2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 10:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC) Here is donald yates on Jewish TV for his DNA testing of jewish people
Now since you said "we are certaintly not going to use yates"...then might as well not use jack goins and roberta estes..because they admited not to be academics.they have not been on history channel...have not even been featured on tv shows, etc etc. oh..let's not forget jack and roberta used family tree dna and went against what family tree dna said...oh and donald yates used the same family tree dna company to test the melungeon dna also. Let's also not forget to mention the people who peer reviewed yates' results have been around since 1972....alot more established than the people who peer reviewed jack and roberta etses. So are we going to not use jack and roberta's article also? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 10:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC) oh and let's not forget to mentioned Donald yates not only made every person tested public....but his dna testing was people from jack goins' melungeon heritage association....including the president of the group...wayne winkler....who by the way is the president of the MHA...and is above jack goins....jack goins is only the vice president. I guess the president of the melungeon heritage association is not a melungeon? I guess the members of the MHA is not melungeons also right? Now if we go back to who jack and roberta tested....oh yeah they never said who they actually tested..the people involved was "top secret". Yet you said yates will not be used in the article yet want to keep jack and robertas? I'd say if yates' study not allowed then neither should jack and robertas. Remember yates was not a "maybe melungeon" but jack goins admited in 40 years he never could find melungeon proof for himself...and roberta could not find melungeon ancestry for herself either. Let's also not leave out the fact Roberta estes has no schooling in genetics....but Yates does...feel free to look at yates' resume : http://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldnyates — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 11:00, 12 March 2013 (UTC) LEt's also not forget to mention that family tree dna went on the history channel...the owner of the family tree dna company backed donal yates' research.....did family tree dna back jack goins and roberta estes? No family tree dna did not. which is interesting..why would they use the same company but the company only back donald yates but not jack and roberta? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 11:04, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
"I'd be surprised if the History Channel ever stated that it agreed with him" umm actually yes they did on not just one documentry but 2 documentries and so did family tree dna. Feel free to watch the documentries. "Yates has a doctorate in classical studies, and his-coauthor is a marketing professor, so who peer reviews people with those qualifications? " the Journal of Genetic Genealogy does. "In order to conduct the larger DNA study, Goins and his fellow researchers – who are genealogists but not academics – had to define who was a Melungeon." Huffington post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/melungeon-dna-study-origin_n_1544489.html Roberta's resume "Roberta is a professional scientist and business owner (BS Computer Science, MBA, graduate work in Geographic Information Systems), and has been an obsessed genealogist since 1978. " http://www.dnaexplain.com/About/Resume.asp So the question should be who peer reviews a person who take a few computer classes to be able to make pie charts? Who peer reviews someone who has never taught at the college level or any legal school system?
http://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldnyates "Donald N. Yates (also published as Donald Panther-Yates) is an American genealogist, author and historian. He holds a Ph.D. in classical studies from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and has written popular and scholarly works in cultural and ethnic studies, history and population genetics. Yates is a one-quarter blood Cherokee descendant and lives with his wife Teresa in Phoenix. " let's also not forget to leave out Yates is 1/4th native...and he is a college professor. Let's also not forget he is the author of numerous published books... http://www.amazon.com/Donald-N.-Yates/e/B0078WXJ4C here is mention of Donald in the federal cherokee's newspaper http://tahlequahdailypress.com/local/x233965961/Tracing-tribal-heritage-through-DNA-questioned The Epigraphic Society also backs yates' works...not sure who this group is? Since its formation in 1974 by Professor Barry Fell of Harvard University and Professor Norman Totten of Bentley College, The Epigraphic Society has supported international investigation and publication of the discovery and decipherments of ancient inscriptions wherever found. Its journal, the Epigraphic Society Occasional Papers (ESOP), is shelved by numerous universities and research institutions worldwide. http://www.oldworldroots.com/Old_World_Roots_of_the_Cherokees_--_A_Review.pdf http://www.lostcivilizationdvd.com/documentary.html The Lost Civilizations of North America featured Donald Yates' DNA work. won Best Multicultural Documentary for the International Cherokee Film Festival (ICFF) 2010 Again...a company ran by the Federal cherokee..and they awarded this documentry best multicultural documentry International Cherokee Film Festival, Inc Icff 109 E Delaware Street Tahlequah, OK 74464-2817
So if you want to remove Yates from the wikipedia page....then the jack goins and roberta estes stuff must go also — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 20:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Now here is how you started this section "when you look at the article. There's nothing obviously fringe there, or in the article of the founder," Ok you said was nothing fringe in Yates' melungeon article etc. So there you admited yourself there was nothing fringe about Yates and his melungeon research. If you was to use that argument in a court room..the judge would tell you flat out that his studies on middle eastern and cherokees would be irrelevant to the Melungeon article since they are two completely different research projects...not to mention the people who peer reviewed the melungeon research for yate's melungeon DNA study has nothing to do with yate's other research. Fringe theory, an idea or a collection of ideas that departs significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study. Fringe science, scientific inquiry in an established field of study that departs significantly from mainstream or orthodox theories. Actually yates's DNA study stated just what has always been stated about melungeons. His study even states the same thing Court judges have stated numerous times. So your "fringe" claim for yates relating to his melungeon DNA study does not work here..sorry but it does not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 08:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
I figured I would just add a little more understanding to this....ok say a guy gets busted for robbing a bank...he serves his time etc and is released....another bank is robbed....can he be found guilty of robbing that bank because he has been busted for robbing a bank before? the answer is simple, no. Since the bank roberries would be two completely different things. The only thing that would matter would be to be a investigation into the 2nd bank robbery itself. Anyway I hope this clears up why your "Fringe" idea does not work with Yates' Melungeon study. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 03:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC) People with agendas keeping others from editing the melungeon page among other pages like itI figure I would just bring a few things up here about some of the people trying to keep others from editing here. http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=99 Doug Weller Director, In the Hall of Ma'at He is the director of a website dedicated to the study of "Alternative history". http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=101 "For a long time I've been meaning to set up a web with references to other sites and articles not found elsewhere which expose 'cult' or 'fringe' archaeology." Doug Weller http://www.ramtops.co.uk/ "Welcome to the Forum of Amun The purpose of The Forum of Amun is the exchange of useful information and theories about ancient Egypt. Postings generally should be scholarly and include verifiable citations of the hard evidence that supports them. However, alternatives to presently accepted views, when well researched and presented in a verifiable format, will not be denied a fair hearing. This list is moderated. However, the stated purpose of The Forum of Amun does not allow for posts that advance such alternative theories as paranormal theories, Atlantis theories, or other forms of pseudohistory*, conspiracy or hyperdiffusionist* theories, alternative chronology, and the like. Archaeologists, Egyptologists, Historians and lay peoples welcome. " Doug Weller http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Amun/ "Although I am by no means a professional archaeologist I do have both academic and practical experience of archaeology as well as a good general academic background which I think has equipped me with the skills needed to understand research in a variety of fields. Those who know me know that I consider myself a skeptic, which to me means that all ideas, be they ‘sacred cows’ or radical new ideas, require the application of reason and the existence of convincing and agreed evidence. I’ve followed Semir Osmanagic’s Bosnian pyramid claims since they were first announced in the international press in 2005. " Doug Weller http://www.robertschoch.net/bosnia%20pyramid%20semir%20osmanagic%20archaeological%20presentation.htm
I figured I would put this here in the talk page so others can discuss this matter. The Melungeon page should be allowed ALL the research included and ALL the view points included without any one side being allowed to take control for their "Agenda". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 11:32, 17 March 2013 (UTC) I mean Doug even admited there was NOTHING fringe about the Yates' Melungeon study....yet he STILL wanted it to be removed for fridge without it having anything fridge about it.....even the people who peer reviewed the study is not a Fringe group.....so only conclusion I can come up with is a biased Agenda going on here to keep the Melungeon article one sided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.169.73 (talk) 11:41, 17 March 2013 (UTC) |
Yates redux
Once again, he is not qualified as a geneticist. There is no consensus for including him and I've reverted the newest attempt to add him. Dougweller (talk) 14:24, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
He is a qualified Genetictists as stated by numerous media and even history channel.
Roberta estes and Jack Goins was the ones who had no education or school in Genetics. Now stop with your vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.229 (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
- - Anyone who is now decreed "an expert" by the History channel is pretty much defualted into the ABSOLUTELY NON RELIABLE SOURCE category. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:19, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Either remove the Roberta estes and Jack goins stuff also or leave the other genetic studies alone. You can not remove stuff and then leave the stuff you want which clearly fails to fall in the standards you stated to remove other research.
"In an interview on March 25, 2013 the host of the History Channel’s new hit series, “America Unearthed,” Scott Wolter, stated that immediately prior to the premier of "America Unearthed," several articles he had written or contributed to in Wikipedia had been simultaneously “gutted” or deleted by a self-appointed Wikipedia editor in rural England named Doug Weller." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.229 (talk) 14:52, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
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Here is you Doug on another site discussing people you do not like back in 2009 then recent attacking their edits on wikipedia simply because you do not like them http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.archaeology/2009-10/msg00498.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.229 (talk) 14:56, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Dude I posted link directly to you on your other site attacking the same people who you been attacking on wikipedia. Every time you write bad stuff about a person on your sites...you then come right to wikipedia attacking them. Would you like for me to post the rest of the links to where you been attacking the editors of wikipedia as well? The host of one of the history channel has already went public about your attacks on them as well. http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.archaeology/2009-09/msg00383.html http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.archaeology/2009-09/msg00377.html http://www.freag.net/en/t/qqc1/scott_wolters_f http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.archaeology/2009-10/msg00496.html Just a few examples....those are just the ones against Scott Wolter who you just recently started trying to have everything Scott Wolter has edited on wikipedia and everything that was added about Scott Wolter removed....and why? all because you simply do not like him. Care for me to start bringing up all the other people you did this same thing to? you attacked Melungeon researchers off wikipedia also and then just because they did not agree with you....you decided to come and start attacking them everytime they edit the Melungeon page.
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As far as Yates....the whole Yates thing has been on the talk page numerous times....we have jumped thru every single hurdle and everytime just because Yates goes against your website you don't want him on wikipedia. What was it the first time huh...that we did not have wikipedia approved sources....nothing else...got wikipedia approved sources..then you started on about something else....we got thru that....then it was it was not peer reviewed and we proved it was....then it became "Fringe" and it was showed no fridge...and now what is it...education....and again we already proved Yates has education. However it is funny how you continue to look past the Robert Estes stuff in the page when everyone has already stated Roberta Estes is not educated in Genetics in any form. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.229 (talk) 18:30, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
"In order to conduct the larger DNA study, Goins and his fellow researchers – who are genealogists but not academics – had to define who was a Melungeon." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/24/melungeon-dna-study-origin_n_1544489.html
Care to explaine why you are not saying anything about that one there Doug?
I already proved about 7 different sources showing Yates has a College level education in the field. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.229 (talk) 18:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Genetics
I've removed all of this for the time being. I suggest that it be discussed at WP:RSN. Dougweller (talk) 19:19, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
It is funny how you removed the whole section jus because I changed the section from DNA to just Genetics in orderto bring a broader spectrum to the section and to keep more section from having to be added.
I also seen it funny how you said I was a in a edit war yet you made no mention of your buddy parkwell's well over 25 edits in a 24 hr period on the Melungeon page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.229 (talk) 09:21, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- Parkwells edits were constructive and within policies on sourcing and reliability. Heiro 09:26, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
- I removed it because of the complaints about other sources. Nothing to do with section headings. The IP can take challenge or defend sources at WP:RSN. Dougweller (talk) 11:37, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Sources
I would like to understand exactly what the EDITORS of this article consider a 'source'? This article is quoting books, outdated books and articles from over 60 years ago, DNA reports that were 'peer reviewed' by a journal that consisted of 'hobbyists' on a DNA study that according to the authors is still ongoing. They identified 69 males and SIX females and concluded they were African and white women. They do not mention the Freeman NA DNA in their study, nor do they mention that two of the six females in the study were documented in their own report with Cherokee ancestry. Paul Heinegg has not been able to trace one single Melungeon family to an African male and *white woman*. There are simply no slave papers, runaway ads, freedom papers, etc., that ties into any of the Melungeon families. Heinegg's genealogies contain numerous question markes, maybes, probably, possibly etc. In fact you will find the Gibson, Bunch, Ivey etc., names associated with the Indian traders such as Capt. Robert Hicks of the Saponi Fort, and others. The Goins, Gibsons, Chavis etc., are living on the lands of William Eaton in Granville at the time "14 Saponi" families were living there. Court records are sources. There is no mention of the numerous court cases that *Judges and Juries* declared these people Portuguese. There is no mention of the records of the United States Government Documents that identify these people as Indians. There are numerous articles by the Smithsonian, ethnologists, archaeologist, and historians that find these people as Portuguese. Why is this 'sourced' material not included in this article? Documenter08 (talk) 11:16, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Because 3 people does not want it in the article. Sucks alot because the Melungeon page is now filled with what those 3 people want and the unbiased people who does not run websites that goes against the actual historical records are the ones not being allowed to edit. They are not having to show their edits as being reliable...and if anyone speaks up about it they tell one of their admins friends to come ban the unbiased people. The host of one of the history channels "America unearthed" has already spoke out about those people also. Even if we get our edits approved by Admins..those 3 people will still remove it. It is a endless circle. Even the actual Melungeon people have been banned for trying to add the correct information. The two people who worked to create this page are not even allowed to edit it anymore :( — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.8.183.229 (talk) 08:07, 5 April 2013 (UTC)